Carbon fibre neck rods

[scojack]

Anybody recommend be a supplier of carbon fibre neck reinforcers? ......anybody do them in the UK?
Thinking of doing the unthinkable (a bass with more than 4 strings... )
For a 5 String --- Seriously ....do i [b]really[/b] need them ? Anybody build or built a 5'er with a truss rod only?

I have to admit that in all my years i have never seriously played a 5 stringer , never mind built one.

Any Tips/thoughts would be appreciated.

Ta
IanM

[blablas]

I've build 4 to 12 string necks and never used them. Never had any problems with my necks or the feeling they are missing something.

The only precaution I take is that on all my builds with six strings or more is using two dual action truss rods, everything under six has been made with one dual action rod.

I've done one odd one out from this rule, a double course 8 string, did that one with one truss rod (no space for two rods) without carbon reinforcers. Up to now no problems whatsoever.

Edited August 13, 2015 by blablas

[scojack]

Cheers blablas ...just what i wanted to hear ! (Thought as much )
Ian

[Andyjr1515]

Hi, Ian

I fitted them on my african bass build but, to be honest, only because Tom specifically wanted them fitting. To be fair, he takes his basses to all sorts of climates (including, of course, Africa) so I suspect it adds the psychological comfort of a little more potential stability but, like blablas, I've never really experienced issues where they would have helped. Unless my mech eng background is deceiving me, they certainly don't help prevent twisting, although they will reduce the amount you need to adjust the truss rod between extreme changes of ambient temperature.

All the same, I'll try to track down where I got mine (I used round ones and am pretty sure they were from a kite supplier).

Andy

[Andyjr1515]

Hi again, Ian

It was from[url="http://stores.ebay.co.uk/laptopconnections/"] this ebay store[/url] He sells hollows, solids, rectangular and round in various sizes and wall thicknesses. They use them for kites, R/C aircraft and R/C helicopters. You can also use carbon arrow tubes but they tend to be very expensive, with specific properties unnecessary for our types of use

Andy

[Beer of the Bass]

I used some in a 5-string neck last year, they were 6mm square solid rods from these guys: [url="http://robotbirds.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=292_123_512"]http://robotbirds.co...ath=292_123_512[/url]
I don't know whether they were entirely necessary, but I was building this neck as a replacement for one which was stuck with too much relief beyond the scope of truss rod adjustment, so I think I really used them for reassurance. I chose 6mm square out of convenience, as it meant I could use the same router bit as I used for the truss rod channel.
Also, some people suggest that a stiff neck makes for a good B-string and as I wanted my neck to look like a Fender/Musicman style rather than a multi-piece laminate it seemed like a simple way of adding a little extra stiffness.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Beer of the Bass

[Billy Apple]

Allparts.

http://www.allparts.uk.com/collections/truss-rods-and-truss-rod-nuts/products/graphite-stiffening-rod-for-bass-23-5-8-x-1-8-x-3-8-inches

[scojack]

[quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1439477503' post='2843220']
Hi again, Ian

It was from[url="http://stores.ebay.co.uk/laptopconnections/"] this ebay store[/url] He sells hollows, solids, rectangular and round in various sizes and wall thicknesses. They use them for kites, R/C aircraft and R/C helicopters. You can also use carbon arrow tubes but they tend to be very expensive, with specific properties unnecessary for our types of use

Andy
[/quote]

Nice one Andy never thought of this, i have a few old stunt kites in the attic from wen i were a lad, could up-cycle a few rods...who remembers Peter Powel stunt kites ? aaahhh takes me back ! Great prices too (compared with Stewmac).

Interesting thoughts from everyone, not everyone seems convinced on how effective these really are...i always kinda suspected they were a load of bullsh1ttery myself especially for a 5'er .... but if XXXXX does it so should I cause in MUST be better etc etc etc

Ian

Edited August 13, 2015 by scojack

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='scojack' timestamp='1439479637' post='2843253']
Interesting thoughts from everyone, not everyone seems convinced on how effective these really are...i always kinda suspected they were a load of bullsh1ttery myself especially for a 5'er .... but if XXXXX does it so should I cause in MUST be better etc etc etc

Ian
[/quote]

They are a bit stiffer than the same section of maple would be and don't add much weight, but I guess there is more than one way of acheiving a stiff neck, especially if you take a more modern approach to building necks (laminates, alternative woods etc). I will probably use them in my next build which I'll be starting soon, simply because I can't find a compelling reason not to!
Fender are using them in most of their USA 4-strings now and I couldn't detect any difference in tone on the Jazz I owned, so they could either be doing it as a selling point or in the hope of reducing their warranty returns.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Beer of the Bass

[scojack]

I suppose if you are building to sell you wouldn't want to lose a sale cause you don't have them, so it's just as well to bung 'em in and go along with it.

[Billy Apple]

I had a Warmoth neck with CFR's and it was as solid and as stable as could be with no dead spots. My Spector has them too and it's the same story.
Think what you like, but I think they're a boon.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1439494191' post='2843418']
I had a Warmoth neck with CFR's and it was as solid and as stable as could be with no dead spots. My Spector has them too and it's the same story.
Think what you like, but I think they're a boon.
[/quote]

My Fender with the "Posiflex" rods had the classic Fender dead spot on the G-string at the 7th fret, so I wouldn't say that they rule out the possibility of dead spots entirely. Although I gather that the Fender rods are an unusual design intended to be more flexible in the middle, which might not help with that particular spot as much as a simple carbon fibre rod. I wonder if Fender found that too much stiffening changed the tone away from what people expected of a Fender?

Edited August 13, 2015 by Beer of the Bass

[Jabba_the_gut]

I'm finding this thread quite interesting. I've never had a bass with them in, I don't think I've even played a bass with them in so can make no comment on their benefit. I haven't built a bass with them in either but kind of feel I should if I ever want to try selling one of my basses as it seems some people want them!!

If I am going to fit them what size should be used? Andy's eBay link chap sells 2 x 10mm strips - would these be any good?

Cheers

Edited August 13, 2015 by Jabba_the_gut

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='Jabba_the_gut' timestamp='1439499280' post='2843453']

If I am going to fit them what size should be used? Andy's eBay link chap sells 2 x 10mm strips - would these be any good?

Cheers
[/quote]
Hi, Jabba

The actual sizes I ordered and used were round ones at 6mm OD and 4mm ID (ie 1mm thick)

[Andyjr1515]

The one niggling concern I have is having two extra slots down the neck. When you draw the neck profile at the nut end - and then pencil in the two rod slots and the trussrod slot - there's an awful lot of air and not a huge amount of wood left!

Edited August 13, 2015 by Andyjr1515

[Jabba_the_gut]

Cheers Andy for all the details and the link.

I was wondering about putting a 2mm wide/10mm deep strip either side of the truss rod as should be easy to fit. Might just give it a go and see what happens!!

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='Jabba_the_gut' timestamp='1439501410' post='2843469']
Cheers Andy for all the details and the link.

I was wondering about putting a 2mm wide/10mm deep strip either side of the truss rod as should be easy to fit. Might just give it a go and see what happens!!
[/quote]
Hi, Jabba

This is my concern, though. Draw the neck profile full size and work out how close to cutting right through the neck you get. You don't have to go very far away from the truss rod before the neck is only 10mm deep in the first place. The only way to avoid that is to have the rods set well in towards the truss rod, where the profile is at its deepest, or to use rods that are less deep. I am certain that the rods give you a stiffer neck, but I'm less convinced it's a stronger neck in all cases.

[scojack]

10mm would be a lot for me, 6mm would be around my range ...still be muttering 'whits the point?' though.
So im going without then, good thing about just going this yourself...if it does all go tits up it just gives me a good excuse to slip out of the madness for a few hours and build another one

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='scojack' timestamp='1439505525' post='2843511']
10mm would be a lot for me, 6mm would be around my range ...still be muttering 'whits the point?' though.
So im going without then, good thing about just going this yourself...if it does all go tits up it just gives me a good excuse to slip out of the madness for a few hours and build another one
[/quote]

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='Jabba_the_gut' timestamp='1439501410' post='2843469']
Cheers Andy for all the details and the link.

I was wondering about putting a 2mm wide/10mm deep strip either side of the truss rod as should be easy to fit. Might just give it a go and see what happens!!
[/quote]
I would be interested in the result, though - especially if you did a neck the same but without the strips to compare

The other reason I went for round rods was so it didn't end up TOO stiff. The 'I' value on 10mm straight will be very high and might prevent any movement at all...

I think what I'm saying is that there may be a positive benefit, but I don't know the level of that benefit, the negative impacts and how you maximise the positives and minimise the negatives. I am not aware of anyone (there may be) who has done controlled experimentation with measurable results but would be genuinely interested to see them.

Also, what problem are they trying to solve? Is it excessive flex, is it stability, is it reduced strain on the truss rod.

My fear is that they gain a 'ooo, not going to buy it if it doesn't have carbon rods in it' trend based on dodgy evidence that they actually make the neck better. If they tangibly DO make it better, I'm all for it...they're easy to fit.

[scojack]

Like a lot of things in this game then , benefits seem plausable but remain completely unproven and subjective, more down to marketing decisions than fact ............

Totally agree with Andy and ask what problem are they actually solving? it's not dead spots for a start (which i have never actually personally encountered).

Ian

[Pete1967]

Apologoes for being a month late to this party, but I might have something of value to add here.. but then again maybe not!! I've built quite a few 4 and 5 string necks and my experience thus far is that carbon rods do make an improvement in the stability, allbeit small. The science of this is not my strong point however my brother has a doctorate in mechanical engineering so I asked him to calculate the advantage for me a few months back. There appears to be two schools of thought... use carbon fibre to replace a truss rod so that the neck is so stiff the tension gives just about the right amount of relief, or add rods along with an adjustable truss rod. We concuded that the former would need ot be calculated on a build by build basis and the variables inserted in to the equasion due to the organic and inconsistent nature of wood would make this almost impossible in any practical sense, so we concentrated on the method of using CF rods with an adjustable truss rod. Clearly in this context the CF would not need to make the neck so stiff that the TR could not adjust the relief, so we ran a number of different CF rod profiles - more on that later. The main point of this story though is that we concluded that the advantage was not from stiffness in the longintudanal axis, nor really from the lateral axis since the CF rods will always deflect, however getting them to twist in the 'helical' axis is nigh on impossible particularly when there are two rods because thet will cancel each other out. So it's our belief that a neck with two moderately sized CF rods permenetly bonded can and will move longintudinally (which you want), but you're far less likely to end up with a twist - which has in fact happened with one four string neck I built witout CF but has never happened with any of my necks with CF in it. As I said earlier he calculated several rod sizes for me and concluded (given the constraint of actually having to be able to embed them in to the neck wood so you can bolt on (if a BO neck) and actually carve a profile without revealing the rod) that the best option is a 4mm x 7mm CF rod and next best is a 6mm round rod. 6mm rods are widely available from radio controlled model shops, but I've only ever found 4mm x 7mm in China - Ali Express to be precise.

So, after some trial and error and some science I've concluded that the best neck construction is to laminate with an odd number of laminates, a mixture of woods (a healthy dose of something like Wenge or Padauk and Maple), two CF rods and an adjustable truss rod. I've yet to make anything larger that 5 strings because lets face, it just buy a guitar!

Jus' my two penneth worth!

[Andyjr1515]

Interesting stuff, Pete1967

Andy

[scojack]

Very interesting Pete, but for every neck that warps in any direction with no CF rods there is always a bass with none that doesn't. And that's the problem i have with this. I think Beer probably hit it in a nutshell....its hard to find a good reason NOT to put them in (especially if you are commercially building, cause everyone else IS) they certainly don't seem to do any harm.

Ian

[Pete1967]

Yeah I 100% agree. With a properly constructed neck made with well seasoned, good quality wood you're highly likely to get a really stable result. With carbon fibre rods inserted you're highly unlikely to get a neck that moves in a way that you don't want it to.... I think the main reason that manufacturers use them is for consistency. Since you're unlikely to get a neck with CF that twists it's easier to achieve consistent results, maintaining reputation and reducing warranty claims.

All this said if you've never built a neck with CF rods, a 5er might be a good place to give it a go and aquire the skill! If you have decided to use CF and haven't already built it, PM me and I'll let you know how I do it. There's a really useful tip that may save you some heartache!