Tone for band? Tone for home?

[JTUK]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1439832461' post='2846111']
All good if your setlist doesn't require you to chop and change...horses for courses.

I think a lot of people like a mid-scooped solo sound, and that can go walkies in some band setups, which is where the OP was coming from...
[/quote]

But you have to make sure it doesn't go missing. The classic P bass sound doesn't go missing...it underpins...unless you go for the hairy sound
which is a bit of a nonsense, IMO,., but there you go. The classic P bass -which is what it is used and known for- is not a sound designed to cut thru, it sits underneath.and if you lose it...then that is something wrong with the mix

I have a scoopy sound and I'm heard... but by the same token I hear Stingrays and you can't hear any top end.
For some people if you don't know what you are doing then you don't know and they'll always have problems..
And these pages are full of people who have to have the cabs right up by their ears in a 3 piece...????

What on earth is going on there...?? I never understand why the bass is thought of being the one to sacrifice.
No other player would use a sound they weren't keen on..and I don't know why bass players should be expected to do so, but then bass players are often the least clued up on sounds.

[Blink]

The best compliment you can get at the end of a gig is "The band sounded great". Work on the ensemble sound which will probably require compromise from everybody, even the guitarist(s).

Ever hopeful.

N

[Krysbass]

For home practice I tend to leave the tone controls on both bass and amp flat and the pickup blend in the middle, as this sounds fine when playing over backing tracks.

However, in a band situation, whether at rehearsals or a gigs, the above tone settings invariably result in the bass being swamped under a sonic deluge of guitars and drums and I struggle to hear myself. My solution is to either boost the mids and/or slightly favour the bridge pickup both of which help the bass to cut through.

I also tend to make the above tone changes on my bass (active electronics) rather than on my amp - I only tend to change my amp settings to reduce the low-end if a particular venue sounds too "boomy".

[bassjim]

as a rule of thumb (90% of the time) on a passive jazz : at home tone off in a small 10 watt practice amp for working out things and practice in general. at the gig tone wide open.

bass amp eq changes every different venue plus changes along the way depending on how busy,empty,loud,quiet,carpet,no carpet,curtains,no curtains,stone floor ect ect ect.

sometimes nothing you can do, due to bad bass acoustics, other than turn the volume up and hope no one you know sees you. sods law usually dictates the gig where every thing is amazingly perfect and its the best bass sound in the world and how you wish you could,just for once be seen and heard, its empty cause the venue is an ex criminal underworld hangout and no one in their right mind will go there. ever.

bass eq: so far i have come to the following conclusion (30 years playing pubs,clubs,weddings,parties,corparate ect. 6 months total as pro in signed band. this is my personal conclusion so please take what you want that could help and disregard any thing you disagree with.not trying to start an "im an expert so listen to me" kinda thing at all.)

to lessen the impact of getting a rubbish sound on a regular basis: I have found;
use the same manufacture for cabs and bass head.mixing this head with that cab usually means you dont get the whole picture that THAT manufacture wants you to get. sadly its true that the more you spend the better it gets and cheap light weight stuff is usually full of compromise. if you dont understand the eq section it may be the wrong amp for you. just because matey down the road likes it, it doesnt mean it will work wonders for you. if you find something that works then stick with it.

i have always changed my strings for a gig cause they sound good straight away (well 96% of the time). just this alone stops a lot of fiddling happening.

Everything tone wise changes a lot from quiet to loud. a lot. you can do that polite sound check where every one is on their best behaviour yet when the gig actually starts .....boom.... first out the trap its gitard and his amazing sound processor frequency eating sh**board closely followed by the amazing left spiderhand of the keyboard player which triggers an instant animal from the muppets on drums = vocals? what vocals?..... and your good eqd sound has just been blown out the water so its back to fiddling on the fly. an extreme example but this is what to look out for. and just when you think you've sussed it.....that really bad one gig comes along and now youve got GAS.................again.

set the eq flat. work out what needs to be added and taken away. like riding a bike every one can give advise but ultimatley only you can learn how to ride it all by your self. wheelies and speed come with practice and even then just cause you can you might feel a bit of a prick doing it down the middle of a pedestrian shopping centre. (or maybe you dont)

like i said folks.....its my personal view so far.

[JTUK]

I get that..and we've all been there, but I don't know why you'd want to put up with ppl like this.
The worst sound we were likely to get is from a managed P.A and that is where they've screwed the stage sound out of sight.
It helps to have a mon engr as then you have someone to refer to..if you don't get enough time on soundcheck..
but bascially we start with a decent level on the stage and then the engrs can fill in the sound if need be.

If the band can't get a good sound from the off with their own vox P.A then they quite simply don't know what they are doing well enough.
Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm.

As for can't hear yourself.... that is soooo basic, IMO. But you have to have people who are open to being told and there the problems tend to start.

One of our problems was the drummer had such a loud powerful kit and playing style so the band was going to be loud and powerful...and this was the push for volume, but we never started the gig with a blown mix.. unfortunately we might have lost it by the second set 3 numbers to the end a once or twice and this was intensely annoying..

When I asked a few ppl I trusted about the mix..even a loud one, we never lost an instrument and we never lost vox at the top of that mix.

It comes down to how good the player is..and how aware they are. A really sorted good player will not have these issues IMO/IME.
and if you have a player you regard as very good and still get these problems, then I'd suggest they aren't that good as these are things
they should know and be able to deal with.

Sorry, but it is as simple as that.

[bassjim]

oh yes..............a good player surrounded by the not so good,the way to loud and the inexperienced is doomed as far as getting the best out of it unless you like just playing the e string only............imo

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1439828916' post='2846083']
But I'd say for me to do what I do..and not limit myself in anyway, I need a sound that does indeed do it all.

For example, a P bass with flats sound would force me to play one way... and I'd find that un-necessarily limiting.
Not saying I don't like that sound..just that is just one facet of how I play... so I cop all those tones of off one sound, pretty much.

And since I'm not chopping and changing, I don't have to re-EQ...

I think you can do this with a passive bass, but it is easier on a an active. The trick is not to have people know you are active, IMO.

Most amps and pre are over engineered in terms of EQ options... and that is a road to nowhere if you get caught up on it.

Slight tangent, but hey..!!
[/quote]

What bass are you using at the moment JTUK. ?
My fav bass is my Jazz but i do find it lacks a little depth.
My Overwater fretless gives me far more depth but not a bass i use for every song.
I do tend to keep my amp same set up at home or gigging apart from volume.
I think that's where i have the active on the bass set slightly boosted on lo-mid too

What i have found recently is that the Markbass rig i've just bought sits far better in the full band mix as it seems to have a more natural lo-mid tone to my Berg cabs. Call that colouring if you like but it does make a fair bit of difference to how the band sounds. Its all original Prog band at moment.

Dave

[Marvin]

I don't use my amp to practice with at home so I'd assume that the tone is different playing with a band. I tend to use a USB interface into a laptop just to work out parts or learn songs.
A tone that sounds nice in my dinning room may sound awful live or in a rehearsal room so I don't get precious about tone at home.

In a band context it depends entirely what the band want to sound like and that can change from song to song.

[JTUK]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1440431957' post='2850672']
What bass are you using at the moment JTUK. ?
My fav bass is my Jazz but i do find it lacks a little depth.
My Overwater fretless gives me far more depth but not a bass i use for every song.
I do tend to keep my amp same set up at home or gigging apart from volume.
I think that's where i have the active on the bass set slightly boosted on lo-mid too

What i have found recently is that the Markbass rig i've just bought sits far better in the full band mix as it seems to have a more natural lo-mid tone to my Berg cabs. Call that colouring if you like but it does make a fair bit of difference to how the band sounds. Its all original Prog band at moment.

Dave
[/quote]

I use 2 Sei J5's...both have East pre's...but I've found you really don't need...or want ..all that potential tone shaping on tap. +12db is a ridiculous amount but accept that most pre amps would have this sort of sweep so you need to be very sparing.

I'll mostly start with the pre switched in but I will try passive and see if I like it. Generally I find passive a more natural sound.
Also, I might try the bridge pickup and decide that is the sound I'll use all night.... but that is in regards to the room EQ and I still
need to hear the right sort of sound back and also the balance.
At a gig there may be 5 or 6 techniques I need to cater for...and they all need to be able to come through when I put them in the track.
With this in mind, I just throw them in on a whim so that is why sound set-up is so critical. Of course, these often end up as no more than a fill...so they can be throwaway and gone in an instant.

My general sound is bright and lacks huge bass... as I want the character of the sound to come thru... I want a very high end so a percussive strum will be heard...but not one that is so brittle or harse. That will also tend to be a factor in the bass sound right down to the lower notes and then I'll add bass to give it bottom and foundation.

A quick look at my amps..and they all have their various bias'... will typically have the bass on about 10.o clcock. The mid bias is the variable
but between 10 and 2... and treble and presense to suit.
My cabs all have horns up to about 50% I'd suggest the EQ stack is not the easiest or more forgiving sound from a technique point of view
and I find dull old strings make it 10 times harder to control as you'll get thick fat noises with no nuance...and also it is hard to wipe off or clean up a thunky old sound. I'm not at all heavy handed so all my sound control comes from my right hand..and to a lesser extent, my left hand.

The main difference between the two amps that I'm using atm...cabs aside,..is the balance and heft. Th e actual EQ I can get pretty close as that is the sound I hone so that is the sound I'm working from. I'll get it pretty easily even with a new amp.

I prefer 10's over the 12's I have ... but these are fine lines that no one else will likely notice. You wont convince me there is no difference tho...and it is at volume that this is the most apparent.

Have to say, very happy with all parts of my sound..it is the playing that is the problem

Edited August 24, 2015 by JTUK

[RandomBass]

Tone for band and tone for home? I use the same settings for both, and also for rehearsal. I might experiment with the home and rehearsal tones of course, but mainly its the same for all three.

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1440441165' post='2850777'] I use 2 Sei J5's...both have East pre's...but I've found you really don't need...or want ..all that potential tone shaping on tap. +12db is a ridiculous amount but accept that most pre amps would have this sort of sweep so you need to be very sparing. I'll mostly start with the pre switched in but I will try passive and see if I like it. Generally I find passive a more natural sound. Also, I might try the bridge pickup and decide that is the sound I'll use all night.... but that is in regards to the room EQ and I still need to hear the right sort of sound back and also the balance. At a gig there may be 5 or 6 techniques I need to cater for...and they all need to be able to come through when I put them in the track. With this in mind, I just throw them in on a whim so that is why sound set-up is so critical. Of course, these often end up as no more than a fill...so they can be throwaway and gone in an instant. My general sound is bright and lacks huge bass... as I want the character of the sound to come thru... I want a very high end so a percussive strum will be heard...but not one that is so brittle or harse. That will also tend to be a factor in the bass sound right down to the lower notes and then I'll add bass to give it bottom and foundation. A quick look at my amps..and they all have their various bias'... will typically have the bass on about 10.o clcock. The mid bias is the variable but between 10 and 2... and treble and presense to suit. My cabs all have horns up to about 50% I'd suggest the EQ stack is not the easiest or more forgiving sound from a technique point of view and I find dull old strings make it 10 times harder to control as you'll get thick fat noises with no nuance...and also it is hard to wipe off or clean up a thunky old sound. I'm not at all heavy handed so all my sound control comes from my right hand..and to a lesser extent, my left hand. The main difference between the two amps that I'm using atm...cabs aside,..is the balance and heft. Th e actual EQ I can get pretty close as that is the sound I hone so that is the sound I'm working from. I'll get it pretty easily even with a new amp. I prefer 10's over the 12's I have ... but these are fine lines that no one else will likely notice. You wont convince me there is no difference tho...and it is at volume that this is the most apparent. Have to say, very happy with all parts of my sound..it is the playing that is the problem [/quote]

Thanks JTUK. That was quite an interesting and well informed reply. Nice to hear how others approach their sound and set up.
Agree with the active and find my Overwater pre-amp only needs a slight change from centre position to give sufficient cut thru the mix and allow my bass to be heard rather than simply felt underfoot. The 10' clock bass setting did surprise me a little tho. I would generally have centred but might try tweaking down a bit to see how it affects my overall tone.
Cheers and thanks for the detail.

Dave

[JTUK]

As you know, the East pre is bass boost only..as most bass boosts on pre's seem to be... so that is a LOT there even if
you don't go to the centre indent of bass onboard. I might use that a tad but no way can I get over that lkine without squishing the sound
with too much bass. This is why I don't like bass heavy cabs and I generally consider them likely tone killers for that reason.

Simple test...turn up the bass boost on your pre and see where all the character in your sound goes... ??

So..I use the bass control on amp and pre to add foundation but not at the expense of core tone.
This is why I think strings are critical in this...if they are full of gunk, then my thinking is the sound
is full of gunk. This is not a given that the bass sound wont work, but it makes it VERY hard to clean
up if you decide you don't want it.
So, I want the cleanest signal into the bass itself... not to be confused with clean amp.
The best signal into the bass on paper is with a pick but I wouldn't want to go that far from a technical playing POV.

I am finding the mid controi on the pre most useful and both my gigging amps and also my practice amps have decent mid.

I don't bother with Semi para's anymore as you end up setting a flat line on the controls and using enhance or filters
and that is a quick fix but not subtle enough as it is a pre ordained internal map, IMO.

But the key is really this IMO..after setting up a tone that you can use... all you need to do in fit that into the band and it is just a question
of seperating or layering the instruments and levels. It is pretty easy and what you are trying to avoid is a fight between this frequency and that frequency.
Mostly this is going to be most apparent with bass frequencies, so kick and floor toms, lower gtr freqs and LH keys..or pads are the issues to focus on.

You do need people to be aware that they may need to turn down ..and there may be small adjustment required if a problem.

This cutting thru the mix is a bad position to start from, IMO..as that implies...implies.. that yopu need to get thru a wall of sound and if you have to resort to that
you are getting into very harsh and drastic measures to do so. I can't see that ending up well .

This is why..IMO..it is laughable that the bass in a 3 piece of gtr, drums and bass band cannot get through... ???? WTF is in the way...???

Just my take on it... but I think it is there or thereabouts as our band sound is better with just a Pub P.A, than most engr'd P.A's that we get to use...size of venue permitting..
It isn't the kit if you are talking pro-level spec, it is the core sounds of the band and the engr that makes or breaks it.

Since we can get a good band sound in pubs and the like...it 'should' be pretty easy for a decent engr to mic it, level it and mix it as we don't have to
worry about too much or this or that... as our core mix is good. IMO.


So, back to the OP..this is why I don't have to worry about tone @ home and tone @ a gig... it is the same because what I practice at home, I be doing at the gig
as that is why I practice it. I'm talking more technique than the song.. I don't practice songs at home unless I've never played them before...i,e a dep request situation.

[blue]

I only focus on my live sound and it's always a work in progress. And I don't have much control of what goes out into the house. Lately I have been using my MRX Bass Octave pedal playing in closed string positions up in that 12th fret area. It really gives you a nice thick heavy foundation that's a huge support to the rest of the band. Gives the band a bigger sound overall.

BTW, I play with a pick.

Blue

Edited August 25, 2015 by blue

[Dan Dare]

I tend to use more boost in the midrange than I like at home when playing live, to make it cut through better.