julietgreen Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 [quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1439761311' post='2845617'] If the venue want to pay in beer, that's fair enough, that's their prerogative. As is yours to take the gig or not. It's also yours and their to negotiate. What's the problem? [/quote] The problem is that I'm not a soloist. I'm in a band, so it's a collective decision. If the other members of the band want to accept the gig, it puts me in an awkward position and potential conflict with the band, which I don't want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 [quote name='julietgreen' timestamp='1439811203' post='2845879'] The problem is that I'm not a soloist. I'm in a band, so it's a collective decision. If the other members of the band want to accept the gig, it puts me in an awkward position and potential conflict with the band, which I don't want. [/quote] I just say no. It's down to them then, do they do it without you ? They would find it hard to get a dep in to play for free, or for beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 The free beer routine is a great money spinner for the Gaffer..... He buys it in for a quid a pint, or a firkin or grutnik.... whatever they are called, and then gives you a few freebies which he now views as £3.75 a pint.... Legalised robbery..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 All our gigs are for money (charity ones excepted, but they've got to be proper charity, not someone playing at being a promoter). One pub I used to play at would also let you have free soft drinks all night, another couple would give you the first drink, and another one or two did free drink all night. The fact that I can't remember which pub it was that gave us free drink all night does show the hazard of having it (the two pubs I do remember were in Munich, and we're still waiting to get another gig there...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 [quote name='julietgreen' timestamp='1439811203' post='2845879'] The problem is that I'm not a soloist. I'm in a band, so it's a collective decision. If the other members of the band want to accept the gig, it puts me in an awkward position and potential conflict with the band, which I don't want. [/quote] Nah, it is, as you say, a band, which comprises of all of you. If you want, or feel the need to compromise and do the gig because the others want to, that's a separate thing from the "free beer". The venue will find a band that will play for whatever they offer. They'll invariably get what they pay for, but it's up to you, as individuals and as a band if what they're offering is enough. The problem isn't and never can be with the venue or what they're willing to pay. It's a free market. If you think you deserve more than the venue is offering, tell them so, just be prepared for them to hire someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Stand your ground... We've normally set a fee of £200 per man on NYE's and been quite happy to not work it. We'll get £1500 plus in the run-up anyway so NYE isn't the gig it used to be simply because everyone wants a piece. A couple of beers is normal anyway...and a decent gig, the LL would offer that anyway...but it doesn't really matter, it is just a nice touch. The fee is the fee. I'd tell them I could make £100 plus just by doing a few hrs taxiing mates home...so I'm not working all night for a low ball offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I wouldn't go out on NYE for less than £200 and even then it'd have to be local. Any more than 45 minutes travel and I'd need another £50. If you think you're being undervalued, then say so. If your band don't like it, well then I'm sorry but you need to give them some facts and you need to stand your ground. You'll need to be set up by 7pm, play from after dinner (9ish?) until at least 12.30-1, you won't be able to pack up for an hour after that and you'll end up getting home at 2.30-3am sober. That deserves recompense! Any other pub gig you'd be looking at around £10ph all told from when you leave the house to when you get home. NYE should be at least double that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 [quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1439819480' post='2846004'] I wouldn't go out on NYE for less than £200 and even then it'd have to be local. Any more than 45 minutes travel and I'd need another £50. If you think you're being undervalued, then say so. If your band don't like it, well then I'm sorry but you need to give them some facts and you need to stand your ground. You'll need to be set up by 7pm, play from after dinner (9ish?) until at least 12.30-1, you won't be able to pack up for an hour after that and you'll end up getting home at 2.30-3am sober. That deserves recompense! Any other pub gig you'd be looking at around £10ph all told from when you leave the house to when you get home. NYE should be at least double that. [/quote] That's how I reckon on what I charge, and how I explain it to any band that wants to play for free. An hourly rate, I charge £15 per hour for teaching from home, and that's the minimum for a gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobiewharton Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 To my mind, this seems to be the issue: Many landlords and punters in pub-type venues are not always terribly discerning and therefore the venues will be more than happy to promote just-for-fun or starter bands, as long as they have very little impact on profitability. That's not to say that I believe it's right to devalue musicians and their needs in any musical setting, simply that people being prepared to play for nothing, as is inevitable, will affect pub/club gigs more than others. Many people however, will not be prepared to work NYE at all and that, in addition to larger profit margins and entertainment budgets gives you more room for negotiation in these venues at this time of year. For those earning a living through music though, the Christmas and NYE break is a busy and demanding time and fees must reflect this, as they do for other service and entertainment industry workers. The most lucrative gigs are, understandably, corporate events and those geared towards musicians. In answer to the Op's concerns about your bandmates' response to your unwillingness to accept gigs that don't tick the boxes for you, I would be really keen to ensure that everybody's singing from the same sheet regarding the band's purpose - it's very difficult to continue, let alone move forward if you're not. Incidentally, the 'exposure' argument is, in my opinion, a red herring and can only achieve the opposite of the desired effect. By offering yourself out for nothing with the intention of benefitting in the future, you can contribute to a 'free gig' culture that benefits nobody but the promoter/landlord. Tobie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 If the landlord is a businessman he should run his pub professionally and expect the people he hires to do their job professionally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 When I was starting out my band was more than willing to play for free, but all the landlords insisted on paying. A few years later when we were trying to play venues with a "name" it'd be pay to play! Weird It's difficult if your band has disagreements. If you don't have a leader, then I guess it's down to a vote. If you don't like the result of the vote, you just have to suck it up and get on with it, which isn't very nice, but you get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerstodge Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1439811467' post='2845886'] I just say no. It's down to them then, do they do it without you ? They would find it hard to get a dep in to play for free, or for beer. [/quote]exactly this, i also say "nope i aint doing it" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 It does beg the question of what happens if one of the band members is ill or has a problem. That's one of the reasons function bands have to make sure they charge the going rate. Last minute dep/deps/whole band - for free on NYE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Yep..the going rate for deps is about £100 for starters...which makes it hard in pubs. So NYE's....? double it and the gig needs to be local. No doubt they'll push the rate if they can with petrol etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smaz Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 We were offered a gig with a couple of options - a fee (not much), or free beer. Me & the Keyboard player are the only drinkers, so we offered a reduced fee & beer for us two. But no, I wouldn't take payment in just beer, as our drummer doesn't drink & the guitarist can only handle 2 pints (and usually drives). Plus it would have to be local, so a taxi is < £10. As for New Years Eve gigs, I'm as above - I wouldn't go out for less than £200+, and I'd still be picky on whether I'd play depending on the venue. The last thing I want is to be playing all night whilst people who can't handle their drink gets wasted on shots of sambuca, throws up in the bogs & tries to shout for Mustang Sally all night. Then again, I don't do this for a living or need the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 We never play for free. I wouldn't expect the guys in the bands I play with to do it and they wouldn't expect me to. NYE is a working and earning night or a quality time with the family night. Landlords can offer what they want (cash, beer, food etc) and in all fairness only they know what works for their business but I have no qualms in politely turning them down. The pub trade is in tatters largely which is why so many landlords try it on and why many of us look elsewhere for gigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gapiro Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1439767013' post='2845661'] No you don't. NYE is free soft drinks and a meal and £1k minimum. Come on guys, please don't lower yourselves out of desperation for a gig. Sure play a Saturday night or charity gig for whatever you want but nowadays most pubs/clubs NYE is 'tickets in advance' gigs. [/quote] +1 , for a 5 piece band £200pp minimum for NYE We're looking at possibly more than that, as we're getting 1k between 7 of us , plus all tickets sold over a particular number (and we're expecting it to sell out, working out at about 250pp) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 [quote name='julietgreen' timestamp='1439747088' post='2845443'] We've been offered a NYE gig at what I would consider an unreasonably low fee. It's difficult to explain to the band that it's not good on principle to accept less and less for gigs, not through over-inflated ego, but because it denigrates the whole business and gives people the impression that musicians don't need to get paid much. I know this is an old argument, but what bugs me further, is that we're often given the bonus of '...and free drinks.' For the heavy drinkers in the band, this could amount to an extra £30 - £40 quid's worth, each. For the non-drinkers, it's worthless. Saying anything makes me feel churlish. Thoughts? [/quote] I think you should air your views and feelings, assuming your band is meant to be fun for you then your feelings are relevant, and if you enter into an agreement you are not happy with it will only come back to haunt you. I also think it is fair to say to the landlord, please don't give us anymore than a few free drinks during set up / clear up, instead please pay us and we will buy additional drinks if we wish. However I have no view on the fee, you just need to be happy, I personally would not play new years eve to the public unless I was seriously well paid, but if someone is really up for the party and wants to play for pennies, then fair enough, enjoy. Main thing is honour your agreements, just be careful what they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 I do this this for a living. I can't pay my mortgage with beer or food. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 [quote name='julietgreen' timestamp='1439747088' post='2845443'] Saying anything makes me feel churlish. [/quote] You should definitely say something. Of all the 'celebration' gigs, NYE is the big payer. No-one should ever do it for little or nothing. The whole point is that you should be compensated for the fact that you won't be celebrating yourself because you're working! Double bubble at least! And you're not being churlish at all, tell your bandmates exactly what you think. I didn't get where I am today by not telling my bandmates exactly what I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbass Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1439817766' post='2845985'] Stand your ground... We've normally set a fee of £200 per man on NYE's and been quite happy to not work it. We'll get £1500 plus in the run-up anyway so NYE isn't the gig it used to be simply because everyone wants a piece. A couple of beers is normal anyway...and a decent gig, the LL would offer that anyway...but it doesn't really matter, it is just a nice touch. The fee is the fee. I'd tell them I could make £100 plus just by doing a few hrs taxiing mates home...so I'm not working all night for a low ball offer. [/quote] This ^^^ completely agree with this. Nice one JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1440198402' post='2849111'] I do this this for a living. I can't pay my mortgage with beer or food. Blue [/quote] This ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Unfortunately we're often up against IT professionals who get 3x that for a day's work in their day job and whose idea of fun is to play a NYE gig. There's nothing wrong with that other than if your guitarist and singer are IT professionals and your drummer works in Tescos and your bass player is a Pro player, it can quickly descend into a bun fight. It's a tricky situation that needs carful handling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubit Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Free drink would suit us fine. We are all drinkers ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Just drink a barrel each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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