band fees and free beer

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440584618' post='2852096']
I think you have just proved my argument.
[/quote]

erm... not really...

The point is that to earn decent money for something you first need to be in a position where you have the skills to do something the person paying you needs. Secondly that skill needs to be something that other people who will do it for less can't do... In the case of music, there are loads of people who can and will do it for nothing. Unless your band is doing something that others can't and that's what people want... In which case you can pretty much dictate your own level of payment.

Whilst music is obviously skilled, there are more people that can do it than paying venues require and this drives the level of remuneration.

Edited August 26, 2015 by CamdenRob

[TimR]

I've been in negotiations for NYE for bands and not once has the venue wanted the band to play for free.

If the only gig you're being asked to do is a gig for free then that does indicate how much your band is worth and what sort of gig you'll be doing. If the pub is selling tickets then you should be getting some of that money. No band, no NYE party.

NYE you should have at least two or three enquiries. These are from people who want 'your' band because they know you do a good job.

Remember you didn't approach him, he approached you. He's the one who wants a band.

[ambient]

While I agree that in any job, there will pretty much always be someone who will undercut. There's a difference between being asked, and agreeing to play for less, and being asked and agreeing to play for nothing.

Being expected by a venue to entertain their clientele for free, is in my opinion an insult, regardless of how good you think you and your band are. The venue, be it a pub, a social club, festival etc, will be charging the people watching, and making money from your work. Even if in the case of a social club, the charging is the members paying their subscription, a percentage of that subscription goes toward members entertainment. if it's a pub you're playing at, the intention of the landlord in asking you to play, is to draw in more customers.

You should get paid, at least something.

[ambient]

Remember, when someone asks you to play at their party, venue, pub or whatever, they're not doing so for your benefit, they're doing so for their own.

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1440581225' post='2852057']
it's the same with any hobby, it's unfortunate that you've chosen a career that other people enjoy doing, but as I stated you have to make sure you're good enough to do it professionally, for instance the guys who play football on a Sunday morning do it for free because they're not good enough to get paid for it, go up a notch and you get semi pros who need a day job to earn enough money to live on, [b]why should the music industry be any different?[/b]
[/quote]

It isnt.

People support football [i]teams[/i], usually their local town or pub or whatever.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Slipperydick' timestamp='1440589692' post='2852165']
It isnt.

People support football [i]teams[/i], usually their local town or pub or whatever.
[/quote]don't people support bands as well? if you get enough support you make a lot of money at it, if you've just got a bit of local support you make a bit of money at it, if you've got no support you make nothing from it, or maybe I'm missing the point

[JTUK]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1440571441' post='2851940']
it all boils down to this, do you play for a living/the money or do you play for pleasure? I'm in the latter so money is of secondary importance to me, in other words I don't need the money, I don't think people should criticise me for it
[/quote]

But you will be because it is a mixed market and some one will feel you are taking work off them.

I agree that you should be worth the premium..and by and large it does work like that as free bands might not be that good..
but when has the customer ...especially in music, been the one who recognised a premium. Not often and made worse because
they know about the free gig possibility. Landlords and club owners sussed this years ago with 'charity' beer festivals and monday
night open mic/audition nights...etc etc

This is why we talk about the gig..agree our bottom rate or say thanks for asking but no thanks

Xmas is always difficult as people are upping their rates 1st week in December but anyone with a family should want
triple or quad rate for NYE's.. minimum IMO.

[JTUK]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1440592290' post='2852197']
don't people support bands as well? if you get enough support you make a lot of money at it, if you've just got a bit of local support you make a bit of money at it, if you've got no support you make nothing from it, or maybe I'm missing the point
[/quote]


If you play a pub you are there to sell beer.... and the 'best' bands sell the most alcohol.

A party will have a bar that charges...there is money in the system and it should be shared..ideally.

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1440592290' post='2852197']
don't people support bands as well? if you get enough support you make a lot of money at it, if you've just got a bit of local support you make a bit of money at it, if you've got no support you make nothing from it, or maybe I'm missing the point
[/quote]

Football has scores. Band get followers yes, but its hardly the same.

If your entertaining professionally or semi professionally, you need an act, an image, stage presence, or be backing someone that has. A lot of bands playing for free can play well enough, but punters pay to be entertained, not to hear their mates play Alright Now and Brown Sugar etc while staring at their hands or feet. the same as the band that was on last night and the night before.

NYE in pubs is as has been said, about selling beer, which will happen anyway - its new years eve, not many will leave if they have tickets and their friends are all there. Landlords know that, they also know which bands WANT to play and treat them accordingly. Better venues will pay for decent bands, its the range in between that misses out, but if the free beer type bands handled it better I think they could get a decent fee. its not just NYE, a few years ago it was red nose day and similar, now it seems to be daytime 'Charity' festivals, where its only the bands that are not getting paid, and a little bit is - Maybe - going to Help for heroes.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Slipperydick

[ambient]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1440592763' post='2852206']
If you play a pub you are there to sell beer.... and the 'best' bands sell the most alcohol.

A party will have a bar that charges...there is money in the system and it should be shared..ideally.
[/quote]

This

[gadgie]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"][color="#000000"]Oh no![/color][/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"][color="#000000"]Not sure where I sit with this. Part of my thinks it’s unfair to take one man’s living from him because they are willing to work for very little, or nothing at all just because they enjoy it. Another part of me thinks that if someone wanted to get into music as way of making living knowing that it would be hard to make a decent living, however still gets into it knowing there won’t be a boss or clocking in card, long lies in the morning etc….[/color][/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"][color="#000000"]One guys works all week for ‘the man’ puts up with sh*t, early mornings, possibly working in all sorts of horrible weather. For this he gets a decent livable wage. Then at the weekend just wants to do his hobby regardless of payment or not.[/color][/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"][color="#000000"]The other has chosen to basically work doing something they like and get paid for it.[/color][/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"][color="#000000"]Both have made their choices, and neither should give the other a hard time.[/color][/size][/font]

[TimR]

A hobby is something I do in my spare time when I want to do it and how I want to do it.

As soon as someone specifies what, when and how then I'm working for them.

[Grangur]

I say take the free beer... then get the Wives and GFs to sell it to the punters in the bar at £2 a pint.

The landlord would soon want to change the payment situation.

[PaulWarning]

maybe I should add that there's is no way I would do I'd do a NYE gig for beer money, but, we are doing a NYE gig for less than some of the sums that have been mentioned on here, but more than our usually fee.
We are also playing a festival this weekend for no fee, but we get free admission for the band members and wags, worth £50 for each band member for a 40 minute slot, which I'm happy with

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1440604899' post='2852354']
maybe I should add that there's is no way I would do I'd do a NYE gig for beer money, but, we are doing a NYE gig for less than some of the sums that have been mentioned on here, but more than our usually fee.
We are also playing a festival this weekend for no fee, but we get free admission for the band members and wags, worth £50 for each band member for a 40 minute slot, which I'm happy with
[/quote]

So admission is £50 each for the punters, but you get in free if you play free. Are the bar staff working for free so that they can watch ? How about the security staff ? Is the bar owner turning over his profits ? If all of the bands are playing free, its a nice day out, but dont kid yourself your not being exploited.

Free admission is not worth £50. if your playing you wouldnt be paying. However, If its a charity you believe in, fair play to you.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1440604260' post='2852343']
I say take the free beer... then get the Wives and GFs to sell it to the punters in the bar at £2 a pint.

The landlord would soon want to change the payment situation.
[/quote]

ha ha nice!

[TimR]

I think you have to take them on their merits.

At a festival, you arrive with your bass in a gig bag, climb on stage, plug into the backline and play for 45mins. Then wander around the festival take in the atmos and have a few beers.

For a NYE gig you have to turn up at a specified time hours before the punters, take an hour to set up, hang around until start time, play 3hours of music to 1am, an hour to pack down and then even if it's only 30mins away you'll not be in bed until 3am. The next day (a bank holiday) will not start until 10 or 11am.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Slipperydick' timestamp='1440606790' post='2852379']
So admission is £50 each for the punters, but you get in free if you play free. Are the bar staff working for free so that they can watch ? How about the security staff ? Is the bar owner turning over his profits ? If all of the bands are playing free, its a nice day out, but dont kid yourself your not being exploited.

Free admission is not worth £50. if your playing you wouldnt be paying. However, If its a charity you believe in, fair play to you.
[/quote]yeah, all the bands are playing free, it's that sort of festival, hippy ideals huh? but I think you'll find that at most festivals it's only the name bands that get paid the rest only usually get free tickets, certainly most of the ones I've got experience of, which most bands are ok with because of the (perceived) exposure they get, as for being exploited, I don't think so, I'm a pragmatist, they don't sell anymore tickets because unknown bands are playing it's the headliners that do that.
If you're in a well known band good luck to you, but most people aren't

Edited August 26, 2015 by PaulWarning

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440608619' post='2852397']
I think you have to take them on their merits.

At a festival, you arrive with your bass in a gig bag, climb on stage, plug into the backline and play for 45mins. Then wander around the festival take in the atmos and have a few beers.

For a NYE gig you have to turn up at a specified time hours before the punters, take an hour to set up, hang around until start time, play 3hours of music to 1am, an hour to pack down and then even if it's only 30mins away you'll not be in bed until 3am. The next day (a bank holiday) will not start until 10 or 11am.
[/quote]exactly, nothing's black and white in this world

[JTUK]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1440610248' post='2852417']
yeah, all the bands are playing free, it's that sort of festival, hippy ideals huh? but I think you'll find that at most festivals it's only the name bands that get paid the rest only usually get free tickets, certainly most of the ones I've got experience of, which most bands are ok with because of the (perceived) exposure they get, as for being exploited, I don't think so, I'm a pragmatist, they don't sell anymore tickets because unknown bands are playing it's the headliners that do that.
If you're in a well known band good luck to you, but most people aren't
[/quote]

I get this but I think good bands charge full stop...and they do so because they know they can get it. Of course, it might relative as if someone offered you the main stage at Glastonbury that would the Main cherry but it is unlikely anyway as the festival have NO reason at all to offer that.

I don't think a good show would want to water down the bill by insisting on a free band... they'd be more interested in the integrity of the show than a small cost of the fee. FWIW all the best beer festivals around here pay...some pay decent money but none of them pay less than a pub.

If they don't adhere to that some of payment structure, they aren't taken seriously and the better bands wont play that game for too long.

[TimR]

Someone pointed out that all the Glastonbury performers were paid the same as it was all for charity too.

Might explain why Kanye West couldn't afford a backing band.

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1440614142' post='2852463']
I get this but I think good bands charge full stop...and they do so because they know they can get it. Of course, it might relative as if someone offered you the main stage at Glastonbury that would the Main cherry but it is unlikely anyway as the festival have NO reason at all to offer that.

[b][i]I don't think a good show would want to water down the bill by insisting on a free band... they'd be more interested in the integrity of the show[/i][/b] than a small cost of the fee. FWIW all the best beer festivals around here pay...some pay decent money but none of them pay less than a pub.

[b][i]If they don't adhere to that some of payment structure, they aren't taken seriously[/i][/b] and the better bands wont play that game for too long.
[/quote]

This...

Edited August 26, 2015 by Slipperydick

[gadgie]

[color=#222222]Hardly the same. We same to be missing a point here in that people playing in a band do it because they like playing in a band and making noise etc.[/color]

[color=#222222]Can't remember the last time I heard a bartender or a bouncer saying, that they really enjoy it and would do it as a hobby.[/color]

[gadgie]

[color=#222222]Do you think there are forums for bar tenders or bouncers with threads like:[/color]
[color=#222222] [/color]
[color=#222222]NBD: Just bought a new sky blue cotton top I think I’ll give it a debut tonight at the Fox and Hounds.[/color]
[color=#222222]Or[/color]
[color=#222222]FS: Black bomber jacket, small amount of blood stains on left sleeves[/color]
[color=#222222] [/color]
[color=#222222]Disclaimer: I’m not saying that bar tenders are all female, or that bouncers get into a lot of bloody situations.[/color]

[TimR]

[quote name='gadgie' timestamp='1440631538' post='2852619']
[color=#222222]Do you think there are forums for bar tenders or bouncers with threads like:[/color]
[color=#222222] [/color]
[color=#222222]NBD: Just bought a new sky blue cotton top I think I’ll give it a debut tonight at the Fox and Hounds.[/color]
[color=#222222]Or[/color]
[color=#222222]FS: Black bomber jacket, small amount of blood stains on left sleeves[/color]
[color=#222222] [/color]
[color=#222222]Disclaimer: I’m not saying that bar tenders are all female, or that bouncers get into a lot of bloody situations.[/color]
[/quote]

You would be surprised.

There are some very dull forums where electricians talk about the size of twin and earth and electronics engineers talk about the characteristics of different diodes.

It's possible to enjoy your work. In fact you spend a third of your life doing it, if you don't enjoy it you're almost certainly in the wrong job.