band fees and free beer

[TimR]

[quote name='gadgie' timestamp='1440631272' post='2852616']
[color=#222222]Hardly the same. We same to be missing a point here in that people playing in a band do it because they like playing in a band and making noise etc.[/color]

[color=#222222]Can't remember the last time I heard a bartender or a bouncer saying, that they really enjoy it and would do it as a hobby.[/color]
[/quote]

There are plenty of Pub Landlords who love doing their job and are passionate about live music.

Funnily enough they're the ones who pay you and even give you a bonus if they've had a good night.

[JTUK]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440656623' post='2852656']
You would be surprised.

[b]There are some very dull forums where electricians talk about the size of twin and earth and electronics engineers talk about the characteristics of different diodes.[/b]

It's possible to enjoy your work. In fact you spend a third of your life doing it, if you don't enjoy it you're almost certainly in the wrong job.
[/quote]

How would you KNOW this... ??

[JTUK]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440656878' post='2852658']
There are plenty of Pub Landlords who love doing their job and are passionate about live music.

Funnily enough they're the ones who pay you and even give you a bonus if they've had a good night.
[/quote]

Yes, and these are the ones you target to play ...
I wouldn't bother about the rest tbh... if we are some sort of afterthought.. or rather the music is.

One of my fave music pubs, the guy/LL is [b]always[/b] travelling to see bands..we have endless chats about music and he always says he doesn't see music the way I do, with regards what is good in a band etc....but he gets out there, he sees loads and altho I wouldn't book some of the acts he does, I respect he knows what he likes and
sees and will book that band/act even though he knows they wont make much money...because he is a fan.

I think that says it all... or rather, it gets no argument from me. (actually it does and I don't get his penchant for 3 piece blues rock bands with endless gtr widdle all night, but we laugh about it)

I'll support the pub as much as poss, his pay rate is lowish, but you need guys like him...

Edited August 27, 2015 by JTUK

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440656623' post='2852656']
You would be surprised.

There are some very dull forums where electricians talk about the size of twin and earth and electronics engineers talk about the characteristics of different diodes.

It's possible to enjoy your work. In fact you spend a third of your life doing it, if you don't enjoy it you're almost certainly in the wrong job.
[/quote]there's an awful lot of people who don't enjoy their work, and it's a good job otherwise unpleasant but vital jobs wouldn't get done
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2013/10/10/only-13-percent-of-people-worldwide-actually-like-going-to-work/
the thing behind a hobby is when you start to get fed up you can give it a rest for a while, not so with work

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1440662403' post='2852702']
Yes, and these are the ones you target to play ...
I wouldn't bother about the rest tbh... if we are some sort of afterthought.. or rather the music is.

One of my fave music pubs, the guy/LL is [b]always[/b] travelling to see bands..we have endless chats about music and he always says he doesn't see music the way I do, with regards what is good in a band etc....but he gets out there, he sees loads and altho I wouldn't book some of the acts he does, I respect he knows what he likes and
sees and will book that band/act even though he knows they wont make much money...because he is a fan.

I think that says it all... or rather, it gets no argument from me. (actually it does and I don't get his penchant for 3 piece blues rock bands with endless gtr widdle all night, but we laugh about it)

I'll support the pub as much as poss, his pay rate is lowish, but you need guys like him...
[/quote]this, if it wasn't for hobbyists like me playing for a lower fee a lot of venues would have to close down
I'm not sure what the argument is here, should we pack it in if we're not full time, or should we charge what the full time musicians charge?

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440656623' post='2852656']
It's possible to enjoy your work. In fact you spend a third of your life doing it, if you don't enjoy it you're almost certainly in the wrong job.
[/quote]

I think a very small percentage of people enjoy their jobs.

More likely is that most people hate their jobs but put up with them because they get paid enough to enjoy their hobbies outside of work... like playing live music.

[TimR]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1440663754' post='2852713']


I think a very small percentage of people enjoy their jobs.

More likely is that most people hate their jobs but put up with them because they get paid enough to enjoy their hobbies outside of work... like playing live music.
[/quote]

The link posted suggested. 13% engaged, 24% disengaged which leaves 63% of people who are fairly indifferent.
There's lots of psychology involved but a job is a job and no job remains interesting forever. The actual physical process of what people do is irrelevant the real secret is whether the people doing the job feel valued and productive.

Live music is a good example because you get positive feedback from human beings.
Try being a trombone player in a recording orchestra, or a comprehensive school teacher at a failing school. That'll test your patience of whether being a musician is fun.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440664371' post='2852718']
Try being a trombone player in a recording orchestra, or a comprehensive school teacher at a failing school. That'll test your patience of whether being a musician is fun.
[/quote]

I very much doubt there is a queue of people wanting to teach music in a failing comprehensive school for free in their spare time...

[TimR]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1440665606' post='2852749']


I very much doubt there is a queue of people wanting to teach music in a failing comprehensive school for free in their spare time...
[/quote]

Indeed. Who would be a musician? Saying you'd love to be a musician and play to live audiences all the time is like saying you'd love to be a plumber driving a van around, changing tap washers, drinking tea and chatting to customers all day.

Edited August 27, 2015 by TimR

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440656623' post='2852656']
You would be surprised.

There are some very dull forums where electricians talk about the size of twin and earth and electronics engineers talk about the characteristics of different diodes.

It's possible to enjoy your work. In fact you spend a third of your life doing it, if you don't enjoy it you're almost certainly in the wrong job.
[/quote]

Yep, almost every 'normal' job I ever had was in electronics, Its not just forums, some of em spend their lives like that. i been lucky really, retired now, after beind self employed for 40 years, but I never had a job I didnt like, and never did one I didnt enjoy doing, never tolerated a boss being an arsehole, and never worked for free. Lifes just too short.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Slipperydick

[synthaside]

You take the rough with the smooth , sometimes the plumber has to work on leaky soil pipes sometimes the bass player has to play Sweet Home Alabama .. AGAIN ;-) There are bad bits to all jobs sometimes i get a phone call at 4 am because a client is screaming at service desk and I need to fix somthing they cant.

I hate to say this ....both as an IT professional and a bass player but you get what you pay for .... If the dog and duck are happy to get ... Melville and his IT crowd mates on keys and glockenspiel to play new years or otherwise "for a bit of a laugh". Then they are more than entitled to get them in to do it , but they are also entitled to expect that they don't quite sell as much beer / punters wanting to come back next year as they would have if they had gotten a more professional band and paid them to play a better quality set.

Its down to how much the pub thinks they are going to benefit in sales from the upfront cost of entertainment , in my area its definitely a publicans market especially on nights like new years , EVERYONE wants to go somewhere and a simple pub can get away with charging for entry or at the very least booking a space. They whack up a bit of bunting , pop on Music television and then change it to the chimes at midnight its a licence to print money .

As such I've found that relying on pubs / bars to deal with new years has been a let down for the last few years . So I've been organizing a big group of my mates inc wives and girlfriends to occupy a table at a out of town gastro-pub get a meal in then get very drunk and play cards against humanity .

I must be getting old ;-)

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='synthaside' timestamp='1440670201' post='2852794']
As such I've found that relying on pubs / bars to deal with new years has been a let down for the last few years . So I've been organizing a big group of my mates[b] inc [/b] wives and girlfriends to occupy a table at a out of town gastro-pub get a meal in then get very drunk and play cards against humanity .
[/quote]

I didn't see the [b]inc [/b]on the first read through...

[ambient]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1440662403' post='2852702']
Yes, and these are the ones you target to play ...
I wouldn't bother about the rest tbh... if we are some sort of afterthought.. or rather the music is.

One of my fave music pubs, the guy/LL is [b]always[/b] travelling to see bands..we have endless chats about music and he always says he doesn't see music the way I do, with regards what is good in a band etc....but he gets out there, he sees loads and altho I wouldn't book some of the acts he does, I respect he knows what he likes and
sees and will book that band/act even though he knows they wont make much money...because he is a fan.

I think that says it all... or rather, it gets no argument from me. (actually it does and I don't get his penchant for 3 piece blues rock bands with endless gtr widdle all night, but we laugh about it)

I'll support the pub as much as poss, his pay rate is lowish, but you need guys like him...
[/quote]

I did some dep gigs for a Free tribute band a few years ago. The gigs were all over the place, and like you say, there are landlords around who are passionate about music, and who value live music, and will pay the bands a realistic sum.

[gadgie]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"][color="#000000"]There definitely a fair amount of Muso thoughts in this thread. TBH I really don’t think 90% of a crowd on NYE give a monkeys armpit if the band are very good. It’s all about music content most of the time. They are there to have a good time, drinking, dancing, snogging and some other bits and bobs. Of course there will be few in there thinking that the band is rough and playing “not that again” tunes in a very mediocre manner. You can see this every week in pubs that have bands up our way. Two bands spring to mind that have been playing mostly the same tunes for the last decade or so. However, the people love them and flock to see them churn out the ‘classics’ with the odd modern ‘classic’ thrown in.[/color][/size][/font]
[font="Calibri"][size="3"][color="#000000"]Really…..most crowds only want to have a laugh and a dance. Considering a LL could get a barmaid or karaoke ‘wannabe’ dj to spin some disc’s on a second hand DJ CD deck….or laptop and hard drive, getting a band is not the cheapest entertainment he could have booked.[/color][/size][/font]

[synthaside]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1440670452' post='2852798']
I didn't see the [b]inc [/b]on the first read through...
[/quote]

Ha ha .... i did rephrase that a few times when I was writing it ... maybe i wanted some peace and quiet ;-) or to play full volume in the house for a change.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='synthaside' timestamp='1440671471' post='2852811']
Ha ha .... i did rephrase that a few times when I was writing it ... maybe i wanted some peace and quiet ;-) or to play full volume in the house for a change.
[/quote]

Well either that or I had visions of you partying the night away with all the wives and girlfirends whilst your mates all stayed at home nursing half a pint...

[synthaside]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1440672612' post='2852820']
Well either that or I had visions of you partying the night away with all the wives and girlfirends whilst your mates all stayed at home nursing half a pint...
[/quote]

sounds like a plan ... want an invite ?

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='synthaside' timestamp='1440673746' post='2852832']
sounds like a plan ... want an invite ?
[/quote]

I can't I'm playing a free gig that night....

[TimR]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1440678297' post='2852884']


I can't I'm playing a free gig that night....
[/quote]

Looking at my band mates' wives and girlfriends, I may take the free gig option as well!

.

Edited August 27, 2015 by TimR

[JTUK]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1440662772' post='2852708']
this, if it wasn't for hobbyists like me playing for a lower fee a lot of venues would have to close down
I'm not sure what the argument is here, should we pack it in if we're not full time, or should we charge what the full time musicians charge?
[/quote]

Being able to turn work away...as it isn't your main income, is a good thing as you don't HAVE to take the gig.

I like to hear bands charging £400 plus in a pub..as it sets the goal. The pub are willing to pay, if they CAN afford it
so the precedent is there.

But punters don't help themselves..they all go on about supporting live music, and then complain about the price of beer..??? Duh..!!!!

The whole problem is that people have got used to cheap alcohol (supermarkets) and by extention, cheap music..

My solution is to make music licenses hard to get and cut out cherap beer from the supermarkets and back in the pub/bar.
That would stop cheap pubs and cheap bands as only the cream would get the gigs..etc etc .. you get the jist.
And people and especially women wouldn't go out with a small bottle of vodka in their bag...??

Reconcile that with people who think £40-50 is a night out..and they'll be the market that will pay £10:00 a ticket.


Altho it was pretty stressful... we've been part of bills that have sold 450 tickets @ £8-10 a ticket and we were on the look out for bands that
could help out.. Their fee would be about £400 for an hours set...but they'd have to be able to sell around 80-100 tickets...
and none of the 'better' or more regarded bands wanted to know. They were happy to play a pub for £280... rather than put some work in
and sell a great evening. And they'd say ...you don't expect our fans to pay do you..?? Well, yes..!! that is the whole point.

The downside for them is that they never get out of a pub circuit and they never earn more than £400 at a private party gig..

All seemed very blinkered and small minded to me... but they'd still regard them selves pretty highly. Big fish small pond..?

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1440681449' post='2852921']
All seemed very blinkered and small minded to me... but they'd still regard them selves pretty highly. [b][i]Big fish small pond[/i][/b]..?
[/quote]

There was a lot of that with the last covers band I played with for a bit, happy to play around their home town for their mates, employees, families, people that worked for them etc - and who would be careful to be seen applauding loudly lol - for peanuts, literally, they came away with 10 or 15 quid each for a 4 hour set. Put them in a decent venue away from home and all the confidence went. But they enjoyed it, and why not ? It was more a hobby than anything else, trouble was a couple of them thought they were stars...

There is room for bands like that, but they should appreciate that for others its their livelyhood, or a big part of it.

Trouble with telling bands they have to sell tickets is, it smacks of the pay to play scams that used to be run by a few promoters, y'know the one, £50 to cover the PA and bar staff, but if you sell enough tickets to your fan base and arrange a coach, your quids in

Edited August 28, 2015 by Slipperydick

[Marvin]

Despite having been in cover bands, as a punter I'd never, ever, pay to go and see one. There's couple of venues near me that charge £3 to see cover bands, not for me.

I only paid £20 to see Richie Kotzen, Billy Sheehan and Mike Portnoy play last year

[mcnach]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1440697181' post='2853107']
Despite having been in cover bands, as a punter I'd never, ever, pay to go and see one. There's couple of venues near me that charge £3 to see cover bands, not for me.

I only paid £20 to see Richie Kotzen, Billy Sheehan and Mike Portnoy play last year
[/quote]

These days I rarely go to bars with cover bands playing, but I used to, and I happily paid to have a few beers in a bar with live music. I wasn't paying to see a particular band (maybe when it was a Thin Lizzy tribute or something), I was paying to have a few drinks in a particular environment with live music. It seems ok to me.

[JTUK]

The reason people don't like to pay for a covers band that they can see for free in a pub is because the said bands typically have no idea how to make it worth while paying to see them.

Even as a 'support' band they'd get paid £400 which was as good a deal as they'd get all year, I'd suggest. But nothing is for nothing...they need to sell 80-100 tickets and I agree that is easier said than done.

For that, they'd be playing a nice stage in a nice venue for an hour or so to about 350-450 people. As I said, if they had a better offer and gig all year, I'd be very surprised indeed... gobsmacked even.

[Master of none]

I'm a beginner and not ready for playing in public yet. And I can imagine that if I did, the first few gigs would have to be quite cheap.

But I'm slightly surprised nobody's mentioned the Musician's Union. Is [i]nobody[/i] a member here? Are [url="http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/Files/Rates/Live-Rates/National-gig"]their rates[/url] so high that members are priced out of all but the very best gigs?