A 500W head with valve preamp for £249!!!!!

[redstriper]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='276499' date='Sep 3 2008, 07:41 PM']Well I would be very surprised if they sound better than my old EBS or my current Genz Benz. There is more to bass amps than just watts.[/quote]

Sorry to be pedantic, but I believe sound quality is subjective, the Hartke may sound better or worse than other amps depending on the listener's taste and spending more money does not guarantee a better sound.

What do the more expensive amps have to give them this better sound and in what ways do they actually sound better in the real world away from the marketing hype?

I have recently come to believe that the main thing to bass amps given a reliable build quality, is in fact watts - the more the better .

Shoot me down in flames if you like..............................

[Merton]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='276502' date='Sep 3 2008, 07:47 PM']Then again you can't really go wrong with a such a tried and tested preamp design allied to a hefty power amp.[/quote]
Aye, that's what I was thinking - as far as I can see it's similar to the Trace V-Type preamp therefore something I know and love!

[bass_ferret]

Alex - you of all people should know that the difference between the 350 watts of my old HD350 and the 500 watts of this new Hartke and the 600 watts I get from my Shuttle is pretty much inaudible in terms of percieved volume; and I did think the last Hartke I tried sounded quiet for the watts it was supposed to have, but that was a long time ago.

Yes sound quality is a question of taste, and one mans meat is another mans poison. I liked my old EBS and my current Genz Benz cos I can hear my basses, not the amp. I have tried other rigs where everything I plugged in sounded the same, cos the sound of the amp was stronger than the sound of my basses. I presume having spent loads on a custom bass with esoteric pups you would want to hear what the bass sounds like not what the amp sounds like.

I am not dissing the Hartke here cos I have not tried it, and it may have the clarity and transparity I look for in an amp, but I very much doubt it.

[redstriper]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='276648' date='Sep 4 2008, 12:32 AM']Alex - you of all people should know that the difference between the 350 watts of my old HD350 and the 500 watts of this new Hartke and the 600 watts I get from my Shuttle is pretty much inaudible in terms of percieved volume; and I did think the last Hartke I tried sounded quiet for the watts it was supposed to have, but that was a long time ago.

Yes sound quality is a question of taste, and one mans meat is another mans poison. I liked my old EBS and my current Genz Benz cos I can hear my basses, not the amp. I have tried other rigs where everything I plugged in sounded the same, cos the sound of the amp was stronger than the sound of my basses. I presume having spent loads on a custom bass with esoteric pups you would want to hear what the bass sounds like not what the amp sounds like.

I am not dissing the Hartke here cos I have not tried it, and it may have the clarity and transparity I look for in an amp, but I very much doubt it.[/quote]

I don't get why you presume these new amps to sound worse than yours without even trying them.
If they were twice the price and had a more esoteric name on the front would you think differently?
I played through quite a few amps this summer. My favourite sound was a new Hartke which was brought in to replace an Ampeg that sounded harsh and kept conking out.
I think the Hartke I used may have been the LH1000, but I'm not sure - it had a very simple front panel is all I remember and my bass definately sounded like my bass through it.
The sound suited me down to the ground, but I'm not big on clarity or transparancy - I'm more the big fat warm bottom type and it had that with knobs on (not too many though).

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='276648' date='Sep 4 2008, 12:32 AM']Alex - you of all people should know that the difference between the 350 watts of my old HD350 and the 500 watts of this new Hartke and the 600 watts I get from my Shuttle is pretty much inaudible in terms of percieved volume; and I did think the last Hartke I tried sounded quiet for the watts it was supposed to have, but that was a long time ago.[/quote]

Sorry, I should have made it more clear that I'm talking about the LH1000, not the LH500. Barely more expensive and 750W into 8 ohms, 1100 into 4.

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='276648' date='Sep 4 2008, 12:32 AM']Yes sound quality is a question of taste, and one mans meat is another mans poison. I liked my old EBS and my current Genz Benz cos I can hear my basses, not the amp. I have tried other rigs where everything I plugged in sounded the same, cos the sound of the amp was stronger than the sound of my basses. I presume having spent loads on a custom bass with esoteric pups you would want to hear what the bass sounds like not what the amp sounds like.

I am not dissing the Hartke here cos I have not tried it, and it may have the clarity and transparity I look for in an amp, but I very much doubt it.[/quote]

Personally I'm not a huge fan of other Hartke heads but the Dual Showman preamp design is almost infallible if you want a warm clean valve sound. It's used in so many boutique preamps that I can't even remember them all but is so long out of intellectual protection that Hartke can just take this reliable formula, as most notably proven by Alembic and put it in a cheap head. It's just one valve, one switch, three pots and a handful of passive components - it's insanely simple and thus very cheap to make (and as I've said before, we all know it works very well). Likewise, it doesn't cost much to build a conventional class AB power amp with large toroidal transformer, far less than achieving similar power with class D and/or SMPS.

Alex

[wateroftyne]

If I was in the market for a bass head, I'd definitely give this a go.

No way would I assume that this sounds worse than a boo-teek head. That's just snobbery.

[bass_ferret]

Hey - I am not the one going out to buy it cos its cheap and has got lots of watts. All I am saying is there is more to chosing a bass amp than that.

I would not call my Genz Benz a boutique amp either, nor the EBS come to that, although they are a lot more expensive than the new Hartke range. Generally in life you get what you pay for, although this may be one of those exceptions to the rule.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='276983' date='Sep 4 2008, 01:46 PM']Hey - I am not the one going out to buy it cos its cheap and has got lots of watts. All I am saying is there is more to chosing a bass amp than that.[/quote]

It's not just that it's cheap and has lots of watts - it has a fantastically simple, effective and extremely well proven preamp design.

Alex

[redstriper]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='276983' date='Sep 4 2008, 01:46 PM']Generally in life you get what you pay for.[/quote]

I'm not so sure about that.

Years ago I remember going to Switzerland to visit one of the two factories where 90% of all watch movements were made.
The identical movements went into watches with vast price differencies and it was explained to me that some people like to spend more for the name on the dial.
I soon learned that I could sell more watches with a trendy name costing twice as much as the same watch with an unfashionable name.

It's called marketing.

[johnnylager]

Someone buy one and review it!

[2x18]

[quote name='johnnylager' post='277302' date='Sep 4 2008, 07:19 PM']Someone buy one and review it![/quote]
Review in " BassPlayer Mag " or pop down to Leeds and try mine out!

Will.

[johnnylager]

[quote name='2x18' post='277336' date='Sep 4 2008, 08:13 PM']Review in " BassPlayer Mag " or pop down to Leeds and try mine out!

Will.[/quote]
I may well be up in Leeds recording soon, I'll be in touch, ta.

[Jase]

Perfect for giving it a hiding on the road!

[stingrayfan]

[quote name='redstriper' post='277286' date='Sep 4 2008, 06:59 PM']I'm not so sure about that.

Years ago I remember going to Switzerland to visit one of the two factories where 90% of all watch movements were made.
The identical movements went into watches with vast price differencies and it was explained to me that some people like to spend more for the name on the dial.
I soon learned that I could sell more watches with a trendy name costing twice as much as the same watch with an unfashionable name.

It's called marketing.[/quote]
Look out for the Hartke Rolex - coming to a shop near you soon.

FWIW, if this head had been around when I bought my Warwick, I'd have given it serious thought.

[david_l_perry]

No pre amp gain.....that would rule it out for me

I had an older rack mounted Harke 3500 about 12-15years ago (before they changed the construction) and it was a great head, the newer ones (that are not real rack heads but just mounted in a wooden box) are a different build quality altogether...

But then I had a 'Top of the range flagship Ampeg SVTProII' that must have been built by monkeys on a late Friday afternoon...more problems than I dare to count....

Some companies just carry on trading on the name alone....Ampeg need taking to one side and shooting for poor quality construction...speaker cabs made of chipboard...holy crap...

[redstriper]

[quote name='david_l_perry' post='277655' date='Sep 5 2008, 10:42 AM']No pre amp gain.....that would rule it out for me[/quote]

Why ?
Is it really necessary and what are the downsides of not having it?

Hartke seem to have gone back to basics with these new amps, not following the trend towards light weight digital technology.
Are they well built or not is the question and is the simple design likely to be reliable or not - I suppose the only way to find out is to buy one and see how it fairs unless anyone here knows already?
Hartke offer a 3 year extended warranty which seems reasonable and they may be easier to service or repair than some other amp types.

£369 for the LH1000 is very good value if it delivers sound and build quality wise.

[Jase]

Bit of Hartke history....thought about it when david_l_perry mentioned the earlier 3500 model, I bet the gig they did with Jaco,Darryl Jones, etc was great!

[attachment=12979:HartkeBr...9_screen.pdf]

[david_l_perry]

[quote]No pre amp gain so that rules it out for me[/quote]

[quote name='redstriper' post='277793' date='Sep 5 2008, 01:32 PM']Why ?
Is it really necessary and what are the downsides of not having it?[/quote]

What they have given instead of a pre amp is two input sockets, active/passive. If your bass is a very high output active bass, then it may still clip the input stage. My status is 18v active (as most actives are these days) and I much prefer to be able to dial in the correct preamp level than rely upon a preset pad level.

I would suggest this is all the more important with a valve pre amp, as a little more gain on the pre will change the tone

To be honest I have not owned a bass amp without a fully adjustable input level for decades.

It would work perfectly well for most applications, just not a perfect fit for me.

Hartke started as an expensive 'top of the range manufacturer' that every pretend top dog wanted to use. I bought the pair of Hartke 4.5XL along with my 3500 at the time (then replaced with the ampeg head), great sounding cabs. a world away from the much cheaper transporter range.



Dave

[Merton]

You can use the volume on your bass to turn down tho.. That will help

But, yes, pedantry aside it would actually put me off too.

[redstriper]

[quote name='david_l_perry' post='277819' date='Sep 5 2008, 01:56 PM']What they have given instead of a pre amp is two input sockets, active/passive. If your bass is a very high output active bass, then it may still clip the input stage. My status is 18v active (as most actives are these days) and I much prefer to be able to dial in the correct preamp level than rely upon a preset pad level.

I would suggest this is all the more important with a valve pre amp, as a little more gain on the pre will change the tone

To be honest I have not owned a bass amp without a fully adjustable input level for decades.[/quote]
Why would they produce an amp that couldn't cope with the majority of modern active basses without having to turn the volume down on the instrument?

I've used amps with and without pre amp gain and not noticed any difference in tone unless it was too high and induced distortion.

I think the LH1000/500 are designed for a clean sound and not suitable for overdriven valve distortion which is ok by me.

I have 2 basses - an old passive fender jazz and a new active ashbory.

The input sensitivity on the LH1000/500 is as follows -
Passive Input 100 k Ohms, 20 mv.
Active Input 100 k Ohms, 60 mv.

Hopefully those inputs would work well with each of my basses - please correct me if I'm wrong.

There are a number of demos on the Hartke myspace page which might be of interest -

[url="http://www.myspace.com/hartkesystems"]http://www.myspace.com/hartkesystems[/url]

[alexclaber]

My Avalon U5 doesn't have a pad/pre-gain control either. Why? Because it doesn't need one, it has tons and tons of headroom. Same concept with this design. If Hartke have used a high voltage supply to the valve then you would need the loudest bass in the world to overdrive it.

Alex

[david_l_perry]

[quote name='redstriper' post='277924' date='Sep 5 2008, 03:31 PM']Why would they produce an amp that couldn't cope with the majority of modern active basses without having to turn the volume down on the instrument?

I've used amps with and without pre amp gain and not noticed any difference in tone unless it was too high and induced distortion.[/quote]

The amp will no doubt happily work with the vast majority of active basses without clipping the input stage, its just that you may not be getting the most out of it if it pads the input too much, or you [i]could [/i]be getting clipping if it does not pad it enough.....

Purely my own experience & preference but I certainly notice a tone change, with valves the more you drive them, the tone change is part of the deal.

Dave

[david_l_perry]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='277949' date='Sep 5 2008, 03:53 PM']My Avalon U5 doesn't have a pad/pre-gain control either.[/quote]

HI Alex, I thought the input 'boost' level knob was the input gain stage with these ? Is it not.

[quote]The U5 high-voltage DI-preamp combines a unique passive tone selector with a variable gain preamp[/quote]

Edited September 5, 2008 by david_l_perry

[alexclaber]

I think people are mixing up what is actually the input stage and what the preamp gain does. In my old SWR Grand Prix one side of the 12AX7 valve was use as the input buffer, with a choice of passive or a padded active input. The preamp gain knob came after this, then the EQ, then the output gain. (The other half of the valve was used in the aural enhancer). Turning the preamp gain down would not stop you clipping the input with a loud bass, that's what the padded input was for. This is the same for all SWR designs.

In the F-2B preamp one half of the tube is used to buffer the input with unity gain and one half is used to drive the output (gain controlled by the volume knob).



The U5 boost knob is after the input stage.

If you design a preamp with low enough noise and high enough headroom you do not need an input gain control. And if you use passive EQ and a high voltage valve then low noise and high headroom are not hard to come by.

Alex

[bremen]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='277990' date='Sep 5 2008, 04:23 PM'][/quote]

Haha, Alembic nicked the design from Fender, then RG Keen (whoever he is) sticks the schematic on his site and has the cheek to slap a copyright warning on it.

Alex is right about the unclippability of the input stage. And it does look like a bargain, specially considering how much Alembic charge for their version of it. Wonder what sort of quality valve they use in it though?