Ear Training & Musical Development.

[Horizontalste]

I posted this on a Facebook page earlier in hope of encouraging some discussion on the subject. It didn't work so I thought I'd try here.
I'm firmly in the ear training camp but I'd like to hear what others think.

Steve


Ear Training is often commented as being the most important aspect of practice yet so many so called musicians overlook it or regard it as a waste of time.

EVERYONE understands the importance of having good ears right?

So what camp are you in?
Do you train your ear or do you rely on other practice methods in your musical development?

[MacDaddy]

'These days' it's not necessary, as you can just search for a how to video on YouTube.

Not saying this is a good thing btw.

[ambient]

For me it's a vital part of learning to play, alongside learning to sight read, harmony and theory etc.

I encourage students to start with intervals, and work up to rhythmic and melodic transcription.

[JTUK]

It is a must have IMO.

I was recently approached by a player of 4 instruments in Orchestras how to learn by ear.

Ideally you'll have both. We all know the story of very educated musicians not being able to play without dots
and not having a scooby doo on a 12 bar.

I'd say they weren't that musically educated, but there you go..probably the wrong argument

To train your ear you have to use it, IMO.

[ambient]

I think the story about classical players not being able to play without notation is just that, a story.

I've just graduated with a degree in music, aural skills is part of the course. It's also part of the audition, the aural admission exam was ridiculously tough.

I also know a few classically trained musicians, cello, trombone and piano, and aural skills are something they're taught too. They're also totally able to improvise and play over a 12 bar.

It's a myth grown up and spread by non educated musicians, usually hiding their own musical ignorance.

[Coilte]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1440593931' post='2852221']
I think the story about classical players not being able to play without notation is just that, a story.[/quote]

I am not so sure, as I have a friend who plays double bass in an orchestra, who readily admits to not being able to play anything without having it written down.

IMO it is not a case of "what camp are you in" as asked by the OP. Being an [i]all round[/i] musician involves learning many things, each being important in it's own right. IMO having a good ear is among the most beneficial.

[ambient]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1440594614' post='2852227']

IMO it is not a case of "what camp are you in" as asked by the OP. Being an [i]all round[/i] musician involves learning many things, each being important in it's own right. IMO having a good ear is among the most beneficial.
[/quote]

As I said in a previous post on this thread, it's as important as being able to read, and having a knowledge of harmony/theory. They all go together to make you a good all-round musician.

[JTUK]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1440593931' post='2852221']
[b]I think the story about classical players not being able to play without notation is just that, a story.[/b]

I've just graduated with a degree in music, aural skills is part of the course. It's also part of the audition, the aural admission exam was ridiculously tough.

I also know a few classically trained musicians, cello, trombone and piano, and aural skills are something they're taught too. They're also totally able to improvise and play over a 12 bar.

It's a myth grown up and spread by non educated musicians, usually hiding their own musical ignorance.
[/quote]

Nope, fraid not. Was asked pretty recently about the very same thing... couldn't play by ear and by a very good reader.
We devised a few things to work on

The other guy was a pit muso and was known in the business for his reading flyshit as the sayi9ng goes, and had the gigs to prove it...but get him on a jazz busking gig and it was painful.... and I mean PAINFUL.

[lowdown]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1440593300' post='2852215']
I'd say they weren't that musically educated, but there you go..probably the wrong argument
[/quote]

It's quite possible, sixty odd members of the Berlin Philharmonic would say
the same about you, if you crash landed into one of their concerts and
tried your hand at one of their Symphonies...lol...

[JTUK]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1440622372' post='2852539']
It's quite possible, sixty odd members of the Berlin Philharmonic would say
the same about you, if you crash landed into one of their concerts and
tried your hand at one of their Symphonies...lol...
[/quote]

I think you need both... but if you earn your living one way or another, you aren't doing too badly.
The problem comes if you can't cross over when/if you have to.

[CH161]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1440593931' post='2852221']
I think the story about classical players not being able to play without notation is just that, a story.

I've just graduated with a degree in music, aural skills is part of the course. It's also part of the audition, the aural admission exam was ridiculously tough.

I also know a few classically trained musicians, cello, trombone and piano, and aural skills are something they're taught too. They're also totally able to improvise and play over a 12 bar.

It's a myth grown up and spread by non educated musicians, usually hiding their own musical ignorance.
[/quote]

I'm not sure about this point. The disciplines are very different. Playing from music demands a certain set of skills and playing by ear, without the reliance on written music is another.

I also hold degrees in music, and my experience suggests there is a wide margin between the two skill sets.

Both of these are very demanding disciplines.

[ambient]

[quote name='CH161' timestamp='1440629543' post='2852603']
I'm not sure about this point. The disciplines are very different. Playing from music demands a certain set of skills and playing by ear, without the reliance on written music is another.

I also hold degrees in music, and my experience suggests there is a wide margin between the two skill sets.

Both of these are very demanding disciplines.
[/quote]

I do think that they would still gain enough knowledge to know what to do. It may not automatically come to them, improvising is a skill that takes practice, but they would have the necessary knowledge of what to do, i.e. they certainly know their instruments, they have the harmonic knowhow.

They certainly wouldn't have to play every note trying to find the right one.

[CH161]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1440630079' post='2852608']
I do think that they would still gain enough knowledge to know what to do. It may not automatically come to them, improvising is a skill that takes practice, but they would have the necessary knowledge of what to do, i.e. they certainly know their instruments, they have the harmonic knowhow.

They certainly wouldn't have to play every note trying to find the right one.
[/quote]

I don't disagree with this, but it isn't just playing notes from the chord when we talk about improvising. A computer could play correct chord notes over a 12 bar, but I don't think it would convince us of a 'personality' which is what improvising is really about - a personal voice and expression.

We don't really need to be trained in music to hear the difference.

I've known many great accompanists, who play the piano part perfectly for their instrumentalist. The chords they are playing are extremely advanced but they have no reason to analyse them. They are executing the dots on the page.

They may be playing a very similar passage to that which a jazz player might improvise over the same melody, but the jazz player is in the moment, relying on a different knowledge base.

I think it is rare for a musician to have both disciplines at an equal point, but when they do we all tend to revere them as the greatest of musicians.

Edited August 26, 2015 by CH161

[Horizontalste]

Great points raised & I understand the importance of pro's having to be competent readers but what about the average Joe (like me)?.
I can't read dots & to be perfectly honest I have neither the time or the inclination to learn but for me what's important is the ability to hear a line or phrase in my head & play it without faffing around looking for the notes.
I guess what sparked me to start this thread were the articles I have been reading about ear training and how most of them relate to or are aimed at (jazz) improvisers.
I'm putting a lot of time into my ear training & slowly it's paying off. I'm transcribing daily, reinforcing intervals & pretty much singing everything I hear, oh & I have an app or two on my phone.
If I have to imagine where I want to be in a year or two it's the guy who isn't flash but can confidently hold his own at a true jam & who has music ingrained so much so that it's second nature & requires little thought. Ok, so maybe a year or two was a bit optimistic but you catch my drift :-)

[ambient]

Singing stuff is a great thing to be able to do.

If you look on Youtube for videos of Janek Gwizdala, you can see him singing an improvised line, then playing the line as he's soloing.

There's a great site that I found useful for ear training called tear - [url="http://teoria.com/exercises"]http://teoria.com/exercises[/url]

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Moveable do solfege can be used to combine ear training and sight reading - a big part of my double bass adventure has been taking classical lessons and learning to read, and my teachers approach to reading is to stick a part in front of me and ask me to attempt to sing it off the page before making any attempt to play it.

I had always been mystified how the teacher at the theory evening class I attended many years ago could look at my homework written out on manuscript and comment on how good (or not) it sounded before playing it at the piano, and discovering solfege has been a real lightbulb moment.

[JapanAxe]

Learning my scales helped me to sight read, and doing hundreds of guitar and bass transcriptions has been fantastic ear training for me.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='SubsonicSimpleton' timestamp='1440661248' post='2852687']
Moveable do solfege can be used to combine ear training and sight reading
[/quote]

This is the basis on Bruce Arnolds series of ear training courses. Essential it focuses on recognising (and singing) notes as key functions (scale degree relative to root) rather than intervals between successive notes, also called "functional" ear training.
Having previously studied interval based stuff quite intensively in the past, the movable-do/functional approach was something of a revelation.

[Horizontalste]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1440666512' post='2852758']


This is the basis on Bruce Arnolds series of ear training courses. Essential it focuses on recognising (and singing) notes as key functions (scale degree relative to root) rather than intervals between successive notes, also called "functional" ear training.
Having previously studied interval based stuff quite intensively in the past, the movable-do/functional approach was something of a revelation.
[/quote]

I think that's the method I'm using, I have an app that plays a cadence then an interval & you have to identify the relationship to the key centre.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Horizontalste' timestamp='1440674149' post='2852839']
I think that's the method I'm using, I have an app that plays a cadence then an interval & you have to identify the relationship to the key centre.
[/quote]

Yep probably the same app I have, its the same idea as bruce arnolds "one note" courses (although the app is better TBH).