hiram.k.hackenbacker Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 So I've spoken with the guy in the band who this gig request has come through and it didn't go particularly well. I've basically said I'm not travelling all that distance for an early afternoon slot playing to two blokes and their dog with no expenses covered. I'm reasonably happy not to profit out of it if it's a decent evening slot, but I'm not going to do it at a loss (barring the leave issue). He said he couldn't go back and negotiate without knowing the band was definitely available. The term conditionally available was lost on him. I feel bad for the rest of the band as they are truly lovely people and it turns out that not all of them knew about the gig anyway. Essentially I've put the ball in his court and made it clear that if he pulls the plug its on him, not me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the boy Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 [quote name='lojo' timestamp='1441126189' post='2856276'] Gigging for free or next to nothing does have a effect of things, but its a free market and people have the right to do it as a hobby. Many services and industries are effected by things, years ago you had to go to a printer/designer to get letter heads and logos done, my mate did mine when PCs became popular. Cheap labour or off duty firemen doing decorating for less than someone needs to charge to earn a wage etc. The invention of home accountancy packages, the list goes on. Bottom line is no one has the right to ask for their industry to be untouched by things like this (except bankers and farmers perhaps) I also believe if a musician is operating at a level where they are effected by someone playing the dog and duck for next to nothing, then they are not really making a career out of it anyway. [/quote] Ok sorry... Don't really get what you mean but you seem cross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.c60 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 So why don't you just put a figure on it - just think of how much fuel you'll use, add a tenner for a dodgy burger and a cup of coffee, call him back and tell him that's how much you want and for that money if it is the afternoon slot the dog can even sit on the stage. I said sit, there are limits. At least he can't complain to the others that he doesn't know if you'll do it or for how much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 [quote name='the boy' timestamp='1441129594' post='2856319'] Ok sorry... Don't really get what you mean but you seem cross. [/quote] Far from it, just sometimes musicians have it in for the guys who play for free like their ruining the industry or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the boy Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 [quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1441129679' post='2856321'] So why don't you just put a figure on it - just think of how much fuel you'll use, add a tenner for a dodgy burger and a cup of coffee, call him back and tell him that's how much you want and for that money if it is the afternoon slot the dog can even sit on the stage. I said sit, there are limits. At least he can't complain to the others that he doesn't know if you'll do it or for how much. [/quote] Excellent...... We've got a plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the boy Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 [quote name='lojo' timestamp='1441129931' post='2856324'] Far from it, just sometimes musicians have it in for the guys who play for free like their ruining the industry or something. [/quote] Aaaaaahhhhh... Got you. The industry is run on exploitation. Poncey prats taking the piss out of fame hungry teens and so on. It's a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 [quote name='lojo' timestamp='1441126189' post='2856276'] Gigging for free or next to nothing does have a effect of things, but its a free market and people have the right to do it as a hobby. Many services and industries are effected by things, years ago you had to go to a printer/designer to get letter heads and logos done, my mate did mine when PCs became popular. Cheap labour or off duty firemen doing decorating for less than someone needs to charge to earn a wage etc. The invention of home accountancy packages, the list goes on. Bottom line is no one has the right to ask for their industry to be untouched by things like this (except bankers and farmers perhaps) [b]I also believe if a musician is operating at a level where they are effected by someone playing the dog and duck for next to nothing, then they are not really making a career out of it anyway.[/b] [/quote] Hmmm chart topping sideman of a good few years ago doesn't get those calls so much anymore, and so the £300 per week they can pick up on the pub circuit might go a long way covering their weekly money. The LL's aren't that well versed in the premium that such acts might actually be worth, so goes for a cheaper option. The cheaper option is next to free..... so guess who loses a gig? If this happens a lot then that is a lot of money being lost. I'm firmly in the music should not be free camp... and at a charity gig yesterday, one of the main organisers was moaning his band that was on last had lost quite a bit of time and they had to start later... this was because the bill overrun. He said that there were plenty of bands out there desperate to do the gig so he didn't see why the bill needed people that couldn't play to their time slot... But they were the bands that made his event a success.. The one thing that a decent LL learns...is that the premium for the better bands is worth it. They are the places to work for.. IMO. As far as I';m concerned, the rest can close down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1441128503' post='2856301'] We just played festival in Bedfordshire. We needed to use our dep keys player, he charges £150. That's the deal, nothing to do with him what we get paid. As it turned out we got paid £250 but the organisers at the end so it was easy to pay him, otherwise, it was our choice to do the gig, knowing we'd need to stump up £150 from band funds. [/quote] correct call, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 [quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1441129679' post='2856321'] So why don't you just put a figure on it - just think of how much fuel you'll use, add a tenner for a dodgy burger and a cup of coffee, call him back and tell him that's how much you want and for that money if it is the afternoon slot the dog can even sit on the stage. I said sit, there are limits. At least he can't complain to the others that he doesn't know if you'll do it or for how much. [/quote] [quote name='the boy' timestamp='1441129951' post='2856325'] Excellent...... We've got a plan. [/quote] Yes indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1441134734' post='2856379']I'm firmly in the music should not be free camp... and at a charity gig yesterday, one of the main organisers was moaning his band that was on last had lost quite a bit of time and they had to start later... this was because the bill overrun. He said that there were plenty of bands out there desperate to do the gig so he didn't see why the bill needed people that couldn't play to their time slot... But they were the bands that made his event a success.. [/quote] But part of being a "professional" band is sticking to your time slot and tailoring your set appropriately. However IMO multi-band gigs that over-run are as much the fault of the organisers (and their lack of organisation) as they are the bands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 [quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1441129107' post='2856313'] So I've spoken with the guy in the band who this gig request has come through and it didn't go particularly well. I've basically said I'm not travelling all that distance for an early afternoon slot playing to two blokes and their dog with no expenses covered. I'm reasonably happy not to profit out of it if it's a decent evening slot, but I'm not going to do it at a loss (barring the leave issue). He said he couldn't go back and negotiate without knowing the band was definitely available. The term conditionally available was lost on him. I feel bad for the rest of the band as they are truly lovely people and it turns out that not all of them knew about the gig anyway. Essentially I've put the ball in his court and made it clear that if he pulls the plug its on him, not me. [/quote] This is why you should have invented 'I'm busy that date' excuse. The guys stance is totally unreasonable, IMO... and he wants to 'force' his stance on everyone else and it appears not everyone is consulted either. If you had have been 'busy'... you aren't the bad guy. If the guy can't see your point and/or he doesn't want to, this is more hassle when a little white lie might have worked. Shame you have to result to tactics like this...but I get the imporession the guy doesn't get what No actually means. He wants to do it... and he'll engineer it if he can. Stick to you guns... a days leave at your day rate is the fee the band should get. It isn't your investment. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1441135884' post='2856397'] But part of being a "professional" band is sticking to your time slot and tailoring your set appropriately. However IMO multi-band gigs that over-run are as much the fault of the organisers (and their lack of organisation) as they are the bands. [/quote] Well, one of the bands giving their time had a ex pro drummer get TWO punctures. The organisers could have said 'stuff you' and the guy had driven an hr to not get to play.. Which is a point of view..not one I'd have gone with myself when you are calling or asking for favours, but one of the other organisers thinks the rosta doesn't matter as plenty will do it for free.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 [quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1441128797' post='2856307'] And I was just trying to point out, as I did in an earlier post, that this topic (bands playing for little or no money, festivals, charity gigs yadder yadder) is still running in another recent thread so do we have to do it all again. The OP's original point was that even if the band wanted to do the non-paying festival type gig should he, as a dep, still get paid. The general feeling seems to be that the answer is yes unless he chooses to waive his fee, which is his choice not theirs. The wider point about free, charity, festivals etc etc is not relevant as he, as a dep, has no part in the band's decision to take the gig unpaid - he should just be another expense like travel etc. for the band to consider - and just drags the topic down a very well worn road. If the cost of having him as a dep causes them to reconsider, or ask him to play for free as otherwise they can't (don't wan to) afford to do it, it's his decision what to do. Do it for expenses (fuel etc.), do it for free, or insist on his regular gig rate that they usually pay him. Not an easy one, but his decision none the less. [/quote] I would rather you had directed your comments to the person who bought the subject up. I was only answering his question. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiram.k.hackenbacker Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 All valid points once again, but I would like to say straight up that I'm not going to invent any circumstance that gives the impression that I'm otherwise engaged or unavailable. I've been straight down the line with this and have told him how it is. If he bails because he can't be bothered to have reasonable discussion around it, then it's all on him, not me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Quite. Just maintain a professional attitude. It's not your fault that the original bass player isn't available. Which is where the real problem lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seashell Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 You might want to point out that they've got plenty of time to find another dep if you don't want to do it. Then they can find out how easy it may or may not be to find someone else willing to do it for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybertect Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 [quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1441145028' post='2856514'] All valid points once again, but I would like to say straight up that I'm not going to invent any circumstance that gives the impression that I'm otherwise engaged or unavailable. I've been straight down the line with this and have told him how it is. If he bails because he can't be bothered to have reasonable discussion around it, then it's all on him, not me. [/quote] I think that's probably the right thing to do if your decision is based on principle. If you make up an excuse, then it may appear that you're otherwise prepared to do the gig for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) I haven't read all the posts. At 61 years of age I have been gigging since 1966. My band currently plays around 75 paid gigs annually. I do not provide service free of charge. I play bass guitar and sing back ground vocals for people that pay me. I'm not 16 and I'm not 23 or in that [i]"I just Want To Play"[/i] phase of my life. This is how I make my living not a flippant [i]" we play when a gig comes along",[/i] " basement social session " or [i]"I have a regular job and would never do this for a living"[/i] proposition for me. If your a younger , [i]"I just wanna play"[/i] kind of guy and your willing to play for free and take a loss, cool. Personally, I would say [i]"thanks but no thanks"[/i] Blue Edited September 2, 2015 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1441005222' post='2855165'] I dont think there any sort of principal involved, its purely your personal choice and I wouldnt feel any obligation to take it. Leave it and let someone do it who is happy to do a an unpaid gig take it and everyone involved is a winner. I would say though that not-for-profit usually means that excess profit (i.e. profit remaining after paying some of the people) goes to charity - not the entire gross receipt, that is after all how many charities operate so some of the people involved will be getting paid something most likely (just possibly not some of the bands). [/quote] Exactly, for some reason these people know that younger musicians are not business savy and can be conned to play for free because of the " exposure" you get. My opinion, your exposed to more people that expect you to play for free. Rubbish Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) I think this band thing is so different to different guys. For most it's not your whole life, for me it is. Standing up and performing for 4 hours with two 15 minute breaks is work anyway you look at it. For guys that want to give that away fine. Me, no way. I won't turn the key in my car for less than$100.00. Blue Edited September 2, 2015 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.c60 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1441140445' post='2856462'] I would rather you had directed your comments to the person who bought the subject up. I was only answering his question. Thanks. [/quote] I would rather not have to go over this stale old topic yet again, with the same participants marking out the same territory and hijacking a thread that has nothing to do with it, but hey you cant always get what you want....wait, didn't someone already say that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) [quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1441176823' post='2856590'] I would rather not have to go over this stale old topic yet again, with the same participants marking out the same territory and hijacking a thread that has nothing to do with it, but hey you cant always get what you want....wait, didn't someone already say that? [/quote] It's not off topic. The OP is feeling pressured into doing a gig for free. Others have said that's borderline exploitation. If you'd rather not go over why this is happening then either don't read threads that have a financial basis or ask a Mod to ban talking about money. I gave a single one line answer. . Edited September 2, 2015 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.c60 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 No, the OP is being asked to dep for free. He wanted to know if that was reasonable if the band has accepted a non paying gig. The answer seems to be "No it isn't", it isn't his band, he's a dep, so the fact that they wan to do a free gig should be none of his concern and they should have factored into their thinking the cost of his participation.That is not the same thing as trying to decide if your band should be doing free gigs, which is what we were in danger of being drawn into yet again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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