IS IT IMPORTANT

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Soliloquy' post='277859' date='Sep 5 2008, 02:30 PM']I think the point is that people were saying that you don't need to know any theory.[/quote]

Not me... nor most of the 'uneducated' on this thread, for that matter. Each to their own, IMO.

[SteveK]

OK, a serious question to those that know no theory and have never had a lesson. Not meant to be at all inflammatory.

Do you think that it benefits you as a player not to know any of the "boring" theory stuff? If so, how?

Or, is the (honest) reason, because "you haven't got 'round to it", or like the OP, "just can't be arsed"?

As I say - serious question...Honest answers only please.


Back in a couple of days, just have to nip to Austria.

Steve

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='SteveK' post='277870' date='Sep 5 2008, 02:37 PM']OK, a serious question to those that know no theory and have never had a lesson. Not meant to be at all inflammatory.

Do you think that it benefits you as a player not to know any of the "boring" theory stuff? If so, how?

Or, is the (honest) reason, because "you haven't got 'round to it", or like the OP, "just can't be arsed"?

As I say - serious question...Honest answers only please.


Back in a couple of days, just have to nip to Austria.

Steve[/quote]

Fair question.

Between bringing up a family, gigging and working I just haven't got the time (a.k.a can't be arsed).

Luckily, I don't feel I've missed out because of it.

[Kiwi]

As I mentioned on Page 1, I think theory brings you extra freedom. Whether that degree of freedom is relevant or needed is obviously subject to one's personal circumstances. I personally don't understand how the issue could be discussed meaningfully beyond that point apart from sharing experiences.

[Wil]

I really don't know much theory at all. I once taught myself to sight read for cello, enough to get through a Bach piece, then prompty forgot it all as soon as I stopped playing cello. I can barely remember the notes for each string let alone each fret. I still consider myself to be a good player though, on several instruments, my ear is excellent, and I can jam with people I've never met before just using my ears and relative pitch. That has come through playing with other people and working out music from listening to it.

It's all I need, and its all I want. Knowing theory wouldn't have been a benefit in any of the originals bands I've been in, and to be honest I'd rather be riding my bike or playing on a console than woodshedding in front of a book. Up to you if you feel you need it, I've got by 13 years of playing without it and have never felt it has held me back.

[artisan]

[quote name='SteveK' post='277870' date='Sep 5 2008, 02:37 PM']OK, a serious question to those that know no theory and have never had a lesson. Not meant to be at all inflammatory.

Do you think that it benefits you as a player not to know any of the "boring" theory stuff? If so, how?

Or, is the (honest) reason, because "you haven't got 'round to it", or like the OP, "just can't be arsed"?

As I say - serious question...Honest answers only please.


Back in a couple of days, just have to nip to Austria.

Steve[/quote]

hi Steve.
i never felt the need for any formal tuition,maybee i'm lucky or just weird,but i just felt i had a very good "feel" for bass guitar from the very start,+ all the musicians i've played with over the years have always liked the way i play,so i never felt the need for any tuition.
i don't think it makes me either a better or worse musician than a formally trained player,some people play from their head-some from their heart.
me i'm a heart kind of bloke.

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='artisan' post='277897' date='Sep 5 2008, 03:07 PM']some people play from their head-some from their heart.
me i'm a heart kind of bloke.[/quote]

What I gathered from that post is that you think that someone who's learned music theory can't play with their heart, or did I misunderstand you?

[The Funk]

[quote name='valentine' post='276396' date='Sep 3 2008, 05:10 PM']all the notes and stuff on a bass,i just cant be arsed with learning all the theory i just like to pick the thing up and play it ,like what i mean by learning the notes ie all you ES,F,GS,A,BS,C,DS, do i really need to learn off by heart where they are on my fret bord[/quote]

If you don't want to play the bass with anyone else, then no - you don't need to know where any of the notes are on a bass.

[artisan]

[quote name='phil_the_bassist' post='277933' date='Sep 5 2008, 03:38 PM']What I gathered from that post is that you think that someone who's learned music theory can't play with their heart, or did I misunderstand you?[/quote]

i think you misunderstood,that is not what i said or what i'm implying.

[Bilbo]

Yeah! - I've never had any theory lessons either (just about 1 lesson on technique every 4 or 5 years). I just taught myself using some books and tapes and dvds and reading some articles in some magazines written by some very clever people that knew stuff I didn't. I thought that would be a good idea rather than knobbing about in the dark until something clicked.

Here's the rub: learning theory doesn't require formal lessons!

As for the status this knowledge brings: the most high profile piece of work I have ever done as a musician was a Radio 1 session in 1981 when I was 17 - before I had any lessons, knew any theory or could read dots. Knowledge is power. The absence of knowledge, however, does not leave you powerless.

My point is simply this:

If you are ignorant of the building blocks of music, you have nothing to offer to the originator of this thread other than a blank piece of paper, some justifications as to why it has remained blank and an excuse for him (or her) to not do anything constructive about their playing. If that is all you have to offer him, do him a favour and shut up (now that's arrogant)! Would any of you suggest people don't send their kids to school because they can probably learn most of the stuff outside? Just because people tell you you are brilliant doesn't mean you are, just as having noone tell you that you are brilliant means you are not. You may be a great player by accident but that won't help the author of the original post get any better, will it? Advocacy of ignorance is not a defensible position to take.

I have one question. If some of you 'naturals' who are great players had studied, how much better would you now be? I can't answer that for you. (although I suspect you answer will be that the theory would have undermined your playing and creativity......

Like it did Steve Vai, Jaco, Jeff Berlin, Brian Bromberg, Gary Willis, Tom Kennedy, Lawrence Cottle, Paul Chambers, Janek Gwizdala, Beethoven, Prokofiev, Aaron Copeland, Mike Stern, Steve Morse, Mozart, John Scofield, Tchaikovsky, Elgar, Scott Henderson, Holst.... (i'm boring myself now ) )

Edited September 5, 2008 by bilbo230763

[artisan]

you're boring me too

but its good to have a wee rant every now & then.

+ you could be correct,maybee some more theory at an eary age could have improved my playing somewhat,but i'm fairly happy with it at the mo.

btw i don't think i'm brilliant at all-just competent.

Edited September 5, 2008 by artisan

[Bilbo]

My experience tells me that I will never get past just competent. Everything I ever learned reveals at least two more things I didn't know

[wateroftyne]

I'm agreeing to disagree on this one... some people just don't get it.

[Dubs]

Professional/formal lessons don’t necessarily make a good player, they are far from the most important thing when it comes to being a good musician.

I think this is going on from what Bilbo said, but the bottom line is that the guys who haven’t been through the process of learning music theory (even the most basic music theory) are talking from a position of ignorance when it comes to appreciating the benefit that it gives you as a musician/bass player. The guys that have learnt and studied music theory are talking from a position of experience and know first hand the knowledge it provides you with as a musician and how it advances you as a player.

How many people on here that have been through the process of learning music theory would tell someone that they don’t need it and it’s not worth the time to bother learning it? Compare that to the amount of people who haven’t learnt any music theory who are saying that it isn’t needed etc…

[CHRISDABASS]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='276755' date='Sep 4 2008, 09:53 AM']This is what is called a series of justifications. It all sounds perfectly plausible but what Chrisdabass is actually saying is that you can become a 'free and natural' player' without doing any work and, and this is the one that REALLY gets on my thruppnies, that people who have studied sound wooden [i]because [/i] they have studied and had lessons. This is a fantastic way of justifying a lack of investment in your playing. Music is about 'expression and feel'? Of course it is. But its not about magic and the magic bass pixie coming along and sprinkling pixie dust on the chosen few. It is about gathering as much information as you need to make defensible decisions about note choices, groove playing, musica textures etc

The trouble with 'natural' and 'untrained' players is that they are invariably one trick ponies who have a limited potential to find work. They are generally less informed about the wider musical world and fairly entrenched in a small generic silo. Outside of their comfort zone they struggle.

The fact that some of the greatest musicians in the world can't read a note of music is neither here nor there. The question is what route is going to get you the most long term benefits as a player. I would advocate for systematic study over pixie dust everytime!

If you want my opinion, if anyone ever tells you there is an easy way to learn the bass that doesn't require concerted study, give them a wide berth.[/quote]


well well well!!!

someones upset about something!!

there's no need to be like that!

i look at it this way (and by the way this is not ment to sound big headed in the slightest!! as i still have a bloody long way to go as a player)

lets take singing as an example!! some people can naturally sing very very well with no training whatsoever......while others range from tone deaf or just plain useless to average and thats fine! now...with lessons anyone can be a "good" singer but does that mean the naturally talented one is somehow wrong or irrellivant?? obviously to be good at anything at all ("naturally talented" or not) you need to really work at it but just because you dont have lessons os study theory does not mean your not putting the work in!! ive worked bloody hard to get where i am today!!

[Dubs]

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' post='278106' date='Sep 5 2008, 06:36 PM']well well well!!!

someones upset about something!!

there's no need to be like that!

i look at it this way (and by the way this is not ment to sound big headed in the slightest!! as i still have a bloody long way to go as a player)

lets take singing as an example!! some people can naturally sing very very well with no training whatsoever......while others range from tone deaf or just plain useless to average and thats fine! now...with lessons anyone can be a "good" singer but does that mean the naturally talented one is somehow wrong or irrellivant?? obviously to be good at anything at all ("naturally talented" or not) you need to really work at it but just because you dont have lessons os study theory does not mean your not putting the work in!! ive worked bloody hard to get where i am today!![/quote]

How can you ‘naturally’ know music theory though? The topic in question is knowledge of music theory being a benefit on bass playing and if it's worth bothering with. You can be a physically naturally talented player (have the ability to play fast technical stuff and be a fast learner etc…) and know sweet FA about music theory. You don’t have to know what you’re playing to play other peoples bass lines or even to read the tab in the Rock School Grade 8 book, but try writing a bass line that’s worthy of being published in said Grade 8 book without knowing any music theory…you will find it nion impossible.

It is true that some people are very naturally talented singers, but I’d bet you that they would struggle to finish a 7 date tour without any professional training or understanding of how to preserve their voice. Natural talent can be completely wasted if it isn’t helped along the way by a little bit of knowledge.

[wateroftyne]

Right... I'll have one more go.

I have no issue with anyone who seeks to educate themselves by studying theory, taking lessons, whatever. No doubt many, many people who do this get a great deal out of it.

I've never done the above, but I've played bass in original and covers bands all over the UK and the world. I'm knocking back gigs as I have so much going on.

I'll bet I'm not the only uneducated oik in this position either. There'll be plenty of others.

As for never having a bassline in a grade 8 book, or emulating the genius of Steve Vai, Jaco, Jeff Berlin, Brian Bromberg, Gary Willis, Tom Kennedy, Lawrence Cottle, Paul Chambers, Janek Gwizdala, Beethoven, Prokofiev, Aaron Copeland, Mike Stern, Steve Morse, Mozart, John Scofield, Tchaikovsky, Elgar, Scott Henderson, Holst....

I don't care. Sneer as much as you like... I'm too busy playing bass.

[CHRISDABASS]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='278127' date='Sep 5 2008, 07:10 PM']Right... I'll have one more go.

I have no issue with anyone who seeks to educate themselves by studying theory, taking lessons, whatever. No doubt many, many people who do this get a great deal out of it.

I've never done the above, but I've played bass in original and covers bands all over the UK and the world. I'm knocking back gigs as I have so much going on.

I'll bet I'm not the only uneducated oik in this position either. There'll be plenty of others.

As for never having a bassline in a grade 8 book, or emulating the genius of Steve Vai, Jaco, Jeff Berlin, Brian Bromberg, Gary Willis, Tom Kennedy, Lawrence Cottle, Paul Chambers, Janek Gwizdala, Beethoven, Prokofiev, Aaron Copeland, Mike Stern, Steve Morse, Mozart, John Scofield, Tchaikovsky, Elgar, Scott Henderson, Holst....

I don't care. Sneer as much as you like... I'm too busy playing bass.[/quote]


i agree with you mate!!

im saying no more on the subject! it isn't getting any of us anywhere!



lets go play some bass!!

[Dubs]

When did this get personal guys?

Some good points for and against have been made in this thread, but…

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='277952' date='Sep 5 2008, 03:56 PM']Advocacy of ignorance is not a defensible position to take.[/quote]

If you don’t know then you don’t know, but you cannot deny that knowledge of music theory will benefit you as a musician. Bow out of this debate if you like – ignorance is bliss after all.

Edited September 5, 2008 by benwhiteuk

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='278142' date='Sep 5 2008, 07:25 PM']When did this get personal guys?[/quote]
I'm still reeling from Bilbo's ridiculous comment. That's what set me off.

[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='278142' date='Sep 5 2008, 07:25 PM']If you don’t know then you don’t know, but you cannot deny that knowledge of music theory will benefit you as a musician.[/quote]
I don't deny it.

[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='278142' date='Sep 5 2008, 07:25 PM']Bow out of this debate if you like – ignorance is bliss after all.[/quote]
I'm bowing out. Ignorance is bliss, eh?

In this case, ignorance saved me a shedload of time and money.

Toodle pip!

[Dubs]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='278149' date='Sep 5 2008, 07:32 PM']I'm still reeling from Bilbo's ridiculous comment. That's what set me off.


I don't deny it.


I'm bowing out. Ignorance is bliss, eh?

In this case, ignorance saved me a shedload of time and money.

Toodle pip![/quote]

fair doos

[ironside1966]

My 2p worth
There is a lot to be gained by learning the nuts and bolts of music theory, learning this will improve any player no matter who they are, this requires some work and the results are not instantaneous, in fact it can send some people playing back for a while in order to move forward.

Let’s turn this thing around. I studied music in my teens at collage, there were quite a few musicians there who could not do anything without the music in front of them, they where talented all the same, that’s what they did, they learnt a piece well and never needed to play anthing without dots at least for guidance, if you moved the music away they would stop playing.
Should they learn to busk and learn songs ear, will that make them better players.

If a player can get by without any theory there is nothing wrong with that at all, I dont care as long as they can do the job, but I bet 99% of players know more theory then they think, most people will know what notes to play over simple cords, I bet most people can play a major, minor, and blues scale.

Some people get bogged down with speed and technique, at the expense of musicality and taste.

You can also practice 247 badly and never achieve anything positive, this is where having a good teacher helps.

One thing is for sure, only the lucky few can get by without putting in a lot hard work in at some point.

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' post='278132' date='Sep 5 2008, 07:15 PM']lets go play some bass!![/quote]

+1

we all agree with CHRISDABASS right?

Well, let's crank it to 11 and have a f***in good weekend playin, practicin, readin, writin and listenin in whatever manner we see fit.

[thepurpleblob]

I like to learn theory because it helps *me* to play. I was that kid who took things apart to see how they worked - it's a personality defect of some sort. Knowing the rules and applying them is how I learn stuff.

My point, I think, is that how you approach learning and instrument depends on your particular learning style. I'm very analytical about it. Clearly others are not. We are all different - a good thing.

[thisnameistaken]

+1 for the Bilbo posts.

-1, I'm afraid, for the bizarrely indignant, proudly ignorant respondents.