IS IT IMPORTANT

[artisan]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='278206' date='Sep 5 2008, 10:01 PM']My 2p worth


If a player can get by without any theory there is nothing wrong with that at all, I dont care as long as they can do the job, but I bet 99% of players know more theory then they think, most people will know what notes to play over simple cords, I bet most people can play a major, minor, and blues scale.

Some people get bogged down with speed and technique, at the expense of musicality and taste.

You can also practice 247 badly and never achieve anything positive, this is where having a good teacher helps.

One thing is for sure, only the lucky few can get by without putting in a lot hard work in at some point.[/quote]

+1
good post
& well said

Edited September 6, 2008 by artisan

[urb]

OK, I'm going to add one comment to all of this,

Why is it bass players are so hung up about 'knowing' what they play, or not? Would this debate be going on a saxophone forum or piano forum? It's stupid to see having skill as being elitist and not having them as 'natural', what the f*** does that mean?

I definitely fall into the category of having a better informed starting point will take you a lot further in your chosen subject areas, but I've lost count of the amount of threads I've seen this kind of subject.

Someone, naming no names, came up to me at the Bass Bash in March, and before he's even introduced him self said "stop playing that jazz...", sorry but that pissed me off a bit. It's like it's a good thing not to be informed, to maintain a state of ignorance is to retain your 'cred'. Well it's not. I'm not suggesting that you should like jazz, it's not an easy thing to like all the time, I DON'T like it all the time but it's opened plenty of doors in my playing and continues to do so. Doesn't mean I can't play rock or funk or blues or soul or grunge or drum and bass....

If you would rather bash out a few tunes on the bass, have a spliff, play on your games console and then go down the pub then great go for it, it's cool. If you want to work out tunes by ear and not worry about whether you understand all he theory behind every chord change or progression, that's fine too. If you are a top pro that really never needs to read music and does it all by ear great and if you can sight read and have perfect pitch then brilliant. there is actually room for every one here and there's nothing wrong with different approachs, it's just your choice at end of the day.

How you do it is up to you but if the central question is 'does knowledge matter?' then surely the answer is simply 'yes'.

[thisnameistaken]

To be taken seriously in anything you do, you need to take it seriously yourself. If you're not willing to put in the hard work, you can't expect your adopted peer group to give you any credence. How can anyone claim to be an expert in a field that they haven't actually studied?

I'm currently involved in another creative pursuit which I'm far too shy to discuss here because I haven't yet had any measurable success at it, but suffice to say that while I'm actually pretty good at it, I realise that I don't know nearly enough about the mechanics and theory of it, and that under professional scrutiny or even peer review I would look like quite the ignorant git despite my enthusiasm and good intentions. I'm studying part-time (formally - something I have never done with music [intended to in my teens, parents were having NONE of it!]) to support my efforts but also to avoid appearing to be a complete charlatan. That's sort-of accepted in some pop music circles, and all it does IMHO is devalue musicianship generally.

[Bilbo]

I have my own agenda here (NO!!!)

I have always been frustrated by the desire of some quarters to 'dumb down' everything, be it music, books, films, tv, art - whatever. I have always preferred excellence in any discipline and, whilst I do expect everyone to be 'the best', I like to see some sort of desire in the individual to develop, to learn, to grow. It is that tendency that makes people interesting (whether they are musicians or not). The absence of that instinct generally renders people pretty one-dimensional and, frankly, boring. That is why the popular media is so bad; most people don't want to be challanged.

I started in HM bands, as I have said elsewhere, and have played in all sorts of different situations in all sorts of locations. In my experience, those musicians who are educated (and self-educated is still educated) are generally (and that word is important) more motivated, quicker, more creative, more respectful of the musicians around them, more professional, easier to communicate with, less frustrating, DEFINATELY better improvisers, more responsive, more open-minded and are more rounded. They are, in a nutshell, more interesting to be around.

The celebration of mediocrity is going to kill all Art; its already disabled it.

[Bay Splayer]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='279629' date='Sep 8 2008, 12:41 PM']I have my own agenda here (NO!!!)

I have always been frustrated by the desire of some quarters to [b][color="#FF0000"]'dumb down' [/color][/b]everything, be it music, books, films, tv, art - whatever. I have always preferred excellence in any discipline and, whilst I do expect everyone to be 'the best', I like to see some sort of desire in the individual to develop, to learn, to grow. It is that tendency that makes people interesting (whether they are musicians or not). The absence of that instinct generally renders people pretty one-dimensional and, frankly, boring. That is why the popular media is so bad; most people don't want to be challanged.

I started in HM bands, as I have said elsewhere, and have played in all sorts of different situations in all sorts of locations. In my experience, those musicians who are educated (and self-educated is still educated) are generally (and that word is important) more motivated, quicker, more creative, more respectful of the musicians around them, more professional, easier to communicate with, less frustrating, [b][color="#FF0000"]DEFINATELY[/color][/b] better improvisers, more responsive, more open-minded and are more rounded. They are, in a nutshell, more interesting to be around.

The celebration of mediocrity is going to kill all Art; its already disabled it.[/quote]

i am [b][color="#FF0000"]definitely[/color][/b] frustrated by people who [b][color="#FF0000"]dumb down [/color][/b]on their spelling

[SteveK]

[quote]i am definitely frustrated by people who dumb down on their spelling[/quote]
Wonder how long it will be before someone mentions the lack of capital letter (to start a sentence) and full stop (to finish a sentence)?

[Bilbo]

Well, I definitely learned something today

Although, in my defence, I would point out that there are 208 words in that post and I got one wrong. That's a 99.52% success rate. If that was anything medical, I would go ahead anyway!!!

Edited September 9, 2008 by bilbo230763

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='280147' date='Sep 9 2008, 09:08 AM']Well, I definitely learned something today [/quote]

It's a good sign when people attack your spelling. It means that they couldn't find fault with your argument.

S.P.

[The Funk]

[quote name='stylonpilson' post='280165' date='Sep 9 2008, 09:34 AM']It's a good sign when people attack your spelling. It means that they couldn't find fault with your argument.[/quote]

I believe it's called an [i]ad hominem[/i] argument.

I agree with urb. There's room for all approaches to music - and even the most formally trained musician has his own personal approach to music, while even the most natural play-by-ear musician has his own theory of which notes sound good and which sound bad.

I find the hardest part of playing bass to be figuring out which notes you can play against the chords/lines the other instrumentalists are playing. I don't naturally have a good ear - running through different scales/chords/progressions over the years has helped me improve it. Everyone has to play by ear when there isn't a chart in front of them.

Edited September 9, 2008 by The Funk

[Bilbo]

The proper study of theory would inevitably improve your ear. I particularly found this with the melodic minor scale and associated chord theory. You would be a pretty special musician if you could find your way around that sucker without proper study.

C D Eb F G A B C = melodic minor = C Min/maj7, D Min7sus9, Eb Maj7sharp5, F7sharp11, G7b6, Adim, Balt (b9, Min3shap9, b11, b5/sharp11, b13, b7).

Of course, you learn it, internalise it then 'just play' but the important part is to LEARN it not wait until the magic bass pixie delivers it fully formed.

[Toasted]

Does anyone have a contact number for this magic bass pixie?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='280216' date='Sep 9 2008, 11:11 AM']C D Eb F G A B C = melodic minor = C Min/maj7, D Min7sus9, Eb Maj7sharp5, F7sharp11, G7b6, Adim, Balt (b9, Min3shap9, b11, b5/sharp11, b13, b7).[/quote]

ROCK AND ROLL!

[Wil]

There are two kinds of musician, it would seem. Those who are happy knowing what they know, and those who want to know more than what they currently know and don't understand why those who are happy knowing what they know don't want to know more than they know. You know?

[Toasted]

Know, no. Know?

[Bilbo]

But those that don't know what they don't know can only want to know what they don't know if they have a very real sense that they don't know what they don't know. If they knew that, and knew that they knew that, then they would want to know, you know?

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='280232' date='Sep 9 2008, 11:40 AM']But those that don't know what they don't know can only want to know what they don't know if they have a very real sense that they don't know what they don't know. If they knew that, and knew that they knew that, then they would want to know, you know?[/quote]

I know I don't know a lot of stuff. It doesn't mean I don't know what i'm missing.

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='Wil' post='280225' date='Sep 9 2008, 11:25 AM']There are two kinds of musician, it would seem. Those who are happy knowing what they know, and those who want to know more than what they currently know and don't understand why those who are happy knowing what they know don't want to know more than they know. You know?[/quote]

no, wait now i know not what i know but now knowing what you know you know is now what knowing is all about..no?

But yeah, that post makes perfect sense!

[Stylon Pilson]

This thread is starting to sound like something from Winnie The Pooh.

S.P.

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='stylonpilson' post='280246' date='Sep 9 2008, 11:50 AM']This thread is starting to sound like something from Winnie The Pooh.

S.P.[/quote]

More like Lewis Carrol methinks!

[Dubs]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='280237' date='Sep 9 2008, 11:44 AM']I know I don't know a lot of stuff. It doesn't mean I don't know what i'm missing.[/quote]

Although realistically by definition you probably don’t know what you’re missing. How can you know or appreciate what you’re missing if you don’t actually understand what you’re missing?

[cheddatom]

[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='280251' date='Sep 9 2008, 11:57 AM']Although realistically by definition you probably don’t know what you’re missing. How can you know or appreciate what you’re missing if you don’t actually understand what you’re missing?[/quote]

If I don't like the idea of rollercoasters because of the extreme speed and G force involved, I won't go on rollercoasters, I will never have the experience of that extreme speed or G force, but I will know that that is what i'm missing.

If I go and watch a jazz band do a load of improvisation in some weird keys that's quite obviously technically challenging, I can observe the use of the theory I don't know - so I quite clearly know what i'm missing.

[Dubs]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='280258' date='Sep 9 2008, 12:11 PM']If I don't like the idea of rollercoasters because of the extreme speed and G force involved, I won't go on rollercoasters, I will never have the experience of that extreme speed or G force, but I will know that that is what i'm missing.

If I go and watch a jazz band do a load of improvisation in some weird keys that's quite obviously technically challenging, I can observe the use of the theory I don't know - so I quite clearly know what i'm missing.[/quote]

I respectfully totally disagree. I think you’re way off the mark with this one. How can you have practical knowledge of something you have no experience or understanding of? You could end up living a very small and narrow minded life if you go around believing that you understand everything despite having no experience of it – no offence meant (and I’m in no way saying you “live a very small and narrow minded life, because from your other posts on the forum I know that’s just not true ), I’m just trying to make a point.

Edited September 9, 2008 by benwhiteuk

[Bilbo]

Not really. If you try read a book in a language you don't understand but you can't make sense of it, you will not know what you are missing. If you can hear those 'weird' changes, they are subjectively more beautiful than the simple little diatonic major harmonies in most poular music. If you can't, you wouldn't know.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='280222' date='Sep 9 2008, 11:19 AM']ROCK AND ROLL![/quote]
Bit morally bankrupt that.
each to their own eh?

Some people learn with their ears and are successful, some learn with their eyes and are successful. Some people do the same and are not successful, and success to me is measured in how happy one is with ones own lot. Not for others to decide.
Each side of this argument needs to learn to live with, and be less denigrating about the other side.

To answer the original question it's important to whom it's important. To the others it's not.

Edited September 9, 2008 by jakesbass

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='280272' date='Sep 9 2008, 12:22 PM']Each side of this argument needs to learn to live with, and be less denigrating about the other side.[/quote]

I very much agree.

I don't look down my nose at people who choose to take lessons or study theory. In return, I don't expect that treatment from those who have.

Unfortunately, this thread has been disappointing in that regard.

Edited September 9, 2008 by wateroftyne