IS IT IMPORTANT

[mcgraham]

[quote]There seems to be an air of 'learning theory will make you a better person' around here, that's taking it a bit too far.[/quote]
[quote]"Theory snobs looking down their noses at the opinions of those who don't tread the same path - not as subtle as they used to be"[/quote]

I'm just surprised that you think that is what we've been saying throughout this thread. If you think this is the case please re-read my posts.

Mark

[SteveK]

[quote]to the point of not consciously using any theory when I joined a band[/quote]
Glad you thought better of your original wording.

Now sounds like you've got the gist of how to use theory.

Steve

[Waldo]

[quote name='SteveK' post='286160' date='Sep 17 2008, 07:07 PM']Glad you thought better of your original wording.

Now sounds like you've got the gist of how to use theory.

Steve[/quote]

Sorry, what? Looks like you've used turned my personal experience into some sort of advocation for the learning of theory, that was not my intention. My experience is that any knowledge of theory that I had before taking up bass had little or no impact on my development as a bass player, I have now totally forgotten all the years of theory that I learned and I'm personally no worse off. What did make me a better player was just simply being in a band.

I don't have an opinion on the matter either way, it is simply a case of you doing what you want to do. I'm just putting my own personal experience out there

Edited September 17, 2008 by Waldo

[mcgraham]

Forgive me, for I really feel like you've missed the point of what has been said, at least what I've said about this.

[quote]My experience is that any knowledge of theory that I had before taking up bass had little or no impact on my development as a bass player[/quote]
My question to you is: did you try to apply it? See my post [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=26875&view=findpost&p=280444"]here[/url], 2nd paragraph. If you [i]had[/i] the knowledge of theory, but did not attempt to apply it, it is little wonder that it did nothing for you. Information is passive; things are unlikely to just jump out at you unless you choose to apply it. Hence the mere knowledge of theory is essentially meaningless and, at least in a musical sense, worthless. Many times I've shown someone something in theory, that they've just looked blankly at me and said 'what use is that to me?'. I then give/play them numerous examples that they may know of the application of said information, or demonstrate something I came up with to give the information some substance, something they can sink their teeth into and identify as useable. Does that make sense?

[quote]What did make me a better player was just simply being in a band.[/quote]
That's wonderful! Playing in a band is a great way to apply what you know, academic theory based knowledge, or simply what you know you like and hoping to stumble across stuff that's good. Again, see my post [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=26875&view=findpost&p=280444"]here[/url], 3rd paragraph.

Mark

Edited September 17, 2008 by mcgraham

[XB26354]

Reminds me of a quote (I think it Anthony Jackson) when asked about the point of reading music, which went something like "If I asked you what the point was of reading English you'd think I were an idiot." If you choose to learn nothing formal about music and do it all by trial and error or feel, it won't make you a better or more creative player than if you do decide to learn something (a myth perpetuated even now by the Beatles "discovering" unusual chord progressions and key changes, e.g. Penny Lane). Knowing at least some theory allows you to communicate with other musicians (assuming they know something too of course). Your ears are your most valuable asset as a musician, theory just puts what you hear in context.

[YouMa]

The more theory you can apply well the more you can make yourself shine and get respect in a band,its always handy to be able to blow away other people on your instrument,its also good for impressing girls Ha! which is one of the reasons i started to play.

Edited September 17, 2008 by YouMa

[Wil]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='286535' date='Sep 18 2008, 11:58 AM']I've read that several times now and still have no idea what you're talking about...

Do you just hit random notes and hope for the best?[/quote]

It's called using your ears!

[mcgraham]

I agree, using your ears is vital, and ultimately what tells you whether something 'works' or not. However, there is a great deal of wasted time in the method you are setting out.

Say you want to do 'x' to a song, e.g. add some tension, harmonise a melody, change a chord, reduce the number of chords etc. If you have even limited theory knowledge, you will have an inkling of where to look for said 'x' factor. If you do not have any theory knowledge, it's a level playing field and you will have to noodle til you find something that works. That's only identifying the information, you still haven't applied it. That requires the use of your ears, whether you figured out something using theory or without.

Therefore, by having a good idea of where to look (from a basic/limited knowledge of theory), you save yourself an awful lot of time, and cut out the noodling and hoping for something to come out of it (see below). On top of that, you are building on the shoulders of musical giants who have done most of the leg work for you. It's simply up to you to find an application for what they've worked out theoretically.

Mark

P.S. I fully advocate noodling with the sole intent of seeing what interesting ideas come out, I do it all the time, it's a key feature of my practice routine; but in situations where you already know what effect/change you want, it's a less than ideal method of pulling ideas out.

Edited September 18, 2008 by mcgraham

[YouMa]

OOOhhh mince!

[Wil]

Who said anything about noodling? If I want to add something to a song, I hear it in my head first. Then I play it. Bish bosh, job done!

[Bilbo]

I agree with mcgraham.

The noodle until you hit something good smacks of giving an infinte number of monkeys an infinte number of typewriters and hoping for the best. It also limits your choices to the individuals usually narrow view of the options.

The thing is to remember that the ultimate test for the usefulness of a theoretical concept in the context of a piece of music is, and always will be, the composer's ears - if it sounds good it is good and if it sounds bad, it is bad. But the theory allows you to go directly to the problem.

A good example is when Sting was working with noted arranger Gil Evans (Nothing But The Sun). Sting was struggling with a composition and asked Evans for some help. 'This note is wrong but whatever I do I can't get it to sound wrong' says Sting.

'It's not that note that's wrong' replies Evans, 'it's the one before it'. Job done. That kind of wisdom comes with knowledge and study and not from the magic music pixie (who I am beginning to like in spite of myself)

[mcgraham]

EDIT: In response to Wil's preceding post...

If you're happy with that, then great I for one hear a lot of things in my mind, but I also hear a lot of things in music that I have never thought of, and I also see theory that makes little to no sense in the context of what I already know. Without the second and third ones, I would only be playing what I started out with already in my head, never expanding, and without the theory, a lot of the things I hear (now and prior to now) would never have made their way onto my instrument.

Mark

Edited September 18, 2008 by mcgraham

[artisan]

personally i think we all play using whatever theory we know either with or without realising it. i.e. you play a 12 bar A minor progression-you don't plan in advance any part of your playing but you play the entire song,including tons of improv',without playing any notes that are out of key.you have probably not given much thought to any of what you played & simply played what you already knew was correct for that particular piece of music.(i always said i "felt" what notes to play but infact i "know" which notes to play without having to think about it)now that to me is the application of music theory in itself-you didn't plan it but you just knew it was right-bingo-theory without thought
i did this myself last night-a typical jam session 12 bar,all 20 minutes of it-i used just about every fret position available on a P bass (hey i said almost) & i'm glad to say it was all in key. this has to be theory doesn't it.
mind i had to buy my mate "Pixie" a couple of pints afterwards

o.k. ramble over,
i'll get me coat.

Edited September 18, 2008 by artisan

[Waldo]

Wow, I post my personal experience, not even an argument, and I get people jumping down my throat insinuating that i'm some sort of arrogant person who doesn't 'do' theory and have drawn comparisons with a monkey and a typewriter. That's nice.

[quote]If someone says, "This tune is in G..." does he say, "Sorry, I don't do theory... play it and I'll wiggle my fingers randomly and there's a chance something might sound okay..."[/quote]

No, the answer would 'I don't actually know what that is but we can jam it out though'. What I'm saying is that we didn't all get together and say 'Ok the next song we do will be in the key of G, with the time signature of 4/8 with these notes and have a harmonic cadence here e.t.c'. Is it actually that hard to people to accept that some people just have a good ear, can come up with things in their head and are happy to jam songs out?

Would just like to point out again that I wasn't even arguing a point.....

[Wil]

Couldn't had said it better.

[mcgraham]

[quote]Wow, I post my personal experience, not even an argument, and I get people jumping down my throat insinuating that i'm some sort of arrogant person who doesn't 'do' theory and have drawn comparisons with a monkey and a typewriter. That's nice.[/quote]I apologise if you felt I was jumping down your throat. Whilst your post was *more or less* one of sharing experience, it was sadly coloured by your finishing comment: [quote]There seems to be an air of 'learning theory will make you a better person' around here, that's taking it a bit too far.[/quote]Which effectively belittled all points made in the favour of theory, even the well reasoned ones (IMO). This, followed by Wil's mildly humorous but generally blunt comment spurred me on to defend my point, as your post put out the implication that my point had been badly missed by at least two of you. Whilst you may not have been intentionally arguing a point, I for one felt like you were misconstruing comments of 'theory is good and helpful', to be 'theory is everything'. Again, just my opinion...

[quote]Is it actually that hard to people to accept that some people just have a good ear, can come up with things in their head and are happy to jam songs out?[/quote] Not at all. I would hasten to point out (as I've said above and in many previous posts) that knowledge of theory is good and helpful, though not essential. What is important is the ability to use what you have to get what you want. And have fun whilst doing so.

Note: I hope this does not substantially offend you, I simply wish to point out where I'm coming from.

Mark

[Waldo]

I don't have any issue with your posts at all, I feel that there are several others though who arn't as well reasoned and accepting to other peoples points of view though. When I say 'better person' I'm making the distinction between 'better person' and 'better player'. A previous post about 'critical sense' seems to alude to the learning of theory making you a better person and not just a better musician - This is something which I do disagree with, going a little bit too far.

Edited September 19, 2008 by Waldo

[Waldo]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='287159' date='Sep 19 2008, 11:11 AM']No such insinuation intended.

The point is that you are in all probability using theory without realising it (and yes, you did say you don't [i]consciously[/i] use it)

Unless you have some understanding of what differentiates between good and bad music (and [i]that[/i] is what theory is) then all you can hope to do is make random noises at random moments. Your understanding the fancy Italian terms.
may be on your own terms, with your own choice of discription... but if you are approaching the music by anticipating what will sound good based on prior experience, you are utilising theory... even if you don't know
Back in the dim distant past, I got a guitar for Christmas. I taught myself first by playing along with blues records without having the faintest clue what I was doing, just using my ears, and figured out that certain notes worked better than others. When somebody eventually showed me the minor pentatonic and blues scales, I realised I already knew them and was applying them. I just called them something else. If somebody had asked me what I was doing, I would have been able to communicate it verbally, it just would have taken longer than saying 'G minor pentatonic'.[/quote]

Ok yes I obviously do use 'theory', it's just my own theory then and not the fancy italian type

I've gathered that the orignal poster is wanting to know whether he should start learning the fancy italian type though, learning scales e.t.c. I certinaly don't know any scales that you can put a name to but I certianly know which frets sound good in a particular context. This is just through the process of jamming with people though and not though any learning of classical theory.

Edited September 19, 2008 by Waldo

[mcgraham]

Thanks for clarifying that Waldo, I do appreciate it.

[quote]Back in the dim distant past, I got a guitar for Christmas. I taught myself first by playing along with blues records without having the faintest clue what I was doing, just using my ears, and figured out that certain notes worked better than others. When somebody eventually showed me the minor pentatonic and blues scales, I realised I already knew them and was applying them. I just called them something else. If somebody had asked me what I was doing, I would have been able to communicate it verbally, it just would have taken longer than saying 'G minor pentatonic'.[/quote]

Great example, and exactly what I was alluding to when I was saying that if you don't use theory you can be wasting a lot of time trying to learn something that is readily available.

Mark

[Waldo]

I feel as though I should clarify myself some more:

All my learning has come from playing with other people and by playing other peoples songs. I picked up the bass becuase of the chili peppers, I then went on to learn practically all of their songs. As a result I knew my way around the fretboard quite well (and had an arsenal of funk licks!) and my playing then progressed even more after joining a band. For me, the enjoyment came from my own self exploration of the instrument and I feel that had I just taught myself every scale under the sun, I'd have skipped out a major part of that 'exploration'. I almost see it as having all the answers and for me the enjoyment comes from figuring stuff out for myself, rather than having a set of absolutes, 'you should play this particular note in this particular key'. As I said before, I certinaly don't know any scales that you can put a name to but I do know which frets sound good in a particular context and this has come simply by self exploration. The one peice of classical theory that I know i'll have been using even without realising would be the idea of rythm and timing but to be honest, that would probably have been the first thing I'd have picked up anyway.

[Wil]

[quote name='Waldo' post='287216' date='Sep 19 2008, 12:16 PM']I feel as though I should clarify myself some more:

All my learning has come from playing with other people and by playing other peoples songs. I picked up the bass becuase of the chili peppers, I then went on to learn practically all of their songs. As a result I knew my way around the fretboard quite well (and had an arsenal of funk licks!) and my playing then progressed even more after joining a band. For me, the enjoyment came from my own self exploration of the instrument and I feel that had I just taught myself every scale under the sun, I'd have skipped out a major part of that 'exploration'. I almost see it as having all the answers and for me the enjoyment comes from figuring stuff out for myself, rather than having a set of absolutes, 'you should play this particular note in this particular key'. As I said before, I certinaly don't know any scales that you can put a name to but I do know which frets sound good in a particular context and this has come simply by self exploration. The one peice of classical theory that I know i'll have been using even without realising would be the idea of rythm and timing but to be honest, that would probably have been the first thing I'd have picked up anyway.[/quote]

Same here. It's also how every musician I've ever played with has learned. I'd imagine the vast majority of people in gigging rock/punk bands probably did the same, I'd wager!

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='Waldo' post='287216' date='Sep 19 2008, 12:16 PM']I feel as though I should clarify myself some more:

All my learning has come from playing with other people and by playing other peoples songs. I picked up the bass becuase of the chili peppers, I then went on to learn practically all of their songs. As a result I knew my way around the fretboard quite well (and had an arsenal of funk licks!) and my playing then progressed even more after joining a band. For me, the enjoyment came from my own self exploration of the instrument and I feel that had I just taught myself every scale under the sun, I'd have skipped out a major part of that 'exploration'. I almost see it as having all the answers and for me the enjoyment comes from figuring stuff out for myself, rather than having a set of absolutes, 'you should play this particular note in this particular key'. As I said before, I certinaly don't know any scales that you can put a name to but I do know which frets sound good in a particular context and this has come simply by self exploration. The one peice of classical theory that I know i'll have been using even without realising would be the idea of rythm and timing but to be honest, that would probably have been the first thing I'd have picked up anyway.[/quote]
exactly the same for me, well nearly. and i think i said it earlier but i have started to look at scales and stuff and realised that i know more than i thought just not what they were called.
and i apply the 'if it sounds good' theory. i do have to check things occasionally and get things to fit.
i'm currently trying to learn sir duke and have a large chunk of it down (except for the speed) but there are sections that have trown me basically because they seem to be in a mode os scale i havent used or seen before, so in this case its going to take some work and having theory would make this alot easier.

[Bilbo]

THere seems to be an assumption here that anyone who knows theory uses it to solve problems and anyone that doesn't just experiments and explores until they find something they like.

You can do both, you know

As for theory making you a better person; maybe. Not as simple cause and effect but in the sense that any form of disciplined application of self teaches you humility, the value of knowledge, the depth of achievement of others and the huge breadth of wonderful things that are available to the developing artist then, yes, I would consider that to be progress. I have, for instance, studied a couple of Stravinsky scores and only in doing so have I come to realise the achievements of the man (who, incidently, was, on occasion, a bit of a to**er). I will never be able to achieve such things but in studying them I have come to share, in some small way, in their achievements. I consider myself to be a better person for it. That is not to say I consider myself to be better than anyone who hasn't studied, just better than I was before I did so. I place considerable value on it as a consequence.

[Bilbo]

PS - if I recall correctly, the main riff in 'Sir Duke' is essentially a pentatonic scale.

I would add that the day that I read that riff on a big band chart was a red letter day for me as a developing player. It was then that I knew that my reading practice was, at last, bearing fruit.

[deadraven]

[quote name='Waldo' post='287216' date='Sep 19 2008, 12:16 PM']I feel as though I should clarify myself some more:

All my learning has come from playing with other people and by playing other peoples songs. I picked up the bass becuase of the chili peppers, I then went on to learn practically all of their songs. As a result I knew my way around the fretboard quite well (and had an arsenal of funk licks!) and my playing then progressed even more after joining a band. For me, the enjoyment came from my own self exploration of the instrument and I feel that had I just taught myself every scale under the sun, I'd have skipped out a major part of that 'exploration'. I almost see it as having all the answers and for me the enjoyment comes from figuring stuff out for myself, rather than having a set of absolutes, 'you should play this particular note in this particular key'. As I said before, I certinaly don't know any scales that you can put a name to but I do know which frets sound good in a particular context and this has come simply by self exploration. The one peice of classical theory that I know i'll have been using even without realising would be the idea of rythm and timing but to be honest, that would probably have been the first thing I'd have picked up anyway.[/quote]

Totally agree with yee there dude!

I think timing and rhythm dont really count as theory. For me, most people have either got it or havent, you cant really 'teach' timing and rhythm in my experiences anyway!
Amount of drummers I've come across that have no timing at all and never will.....