IS IT IMPORTANT

[Bilbo]

[quote name='deadraven' post='287311' date='Sep 19 2008, 02:18 PM']Like most people are saying, there are mainly two types, one who is theory based, and the other who will explore.[/quote]

That's exactly the opposite of what I just said

[quote name='deadraven' post='287311' date='Sep 19 2008, 02:18 PM']The experiences I've had with people who learnt all the theory first from picking up their instruments for the first time generally thought everything had to be played 'a specific way' and always in a certain scale.[/quote]

The bad application of knowledge should never be laid at the door of the knowledge itself but at the owner of that knowledge. A example of a musician who applies theory badly should not be used to negate the value of that knowledge.

[quote name='deadraven' post='287311' date='Sep 19 2008, 02:18 PM']I think when you feel you've gone stale in your playing or hit a brick wall, then perhaps you should further yourself by learning techniques you may not know. But untill that time, as long as your having fun playing your instrument and generally going well with the music, nothing else matters!!![/quote]

Whilst this is not wholly defensilbe, I would argue that, if you study the whole language of music in all its myriad glories, you would never get stale. I am more excited by music now that I was when I started playing in 1980! Stale is what you get if you don't look outwards and see what the rest of the world is doing - stagnant water is only stagnant because it is not regularly refreshed.

And as for fun; there is a concept called deferred gratification. Not everything that is of value can be gleaned out of what is superficially 'fun'. The best things in life, the things that really matter, are often hard won.

Edited September 19, 2008 by bilbo230763

[Bilbo]

[quote name='deadraven' post='287318' date='Sep 19 2008, 02:24 PM']you cant really 'teach' timing and rhythm[/quote]

Of course you can.

[Waldo]

[quote name='deadraven' post='287318' date='Sep 19 2008, 02:24 PM']Totally agree with yee there dude!

I think timing and rhythm dont really count as theory. For me, most people have either got it or havent, you cant really 'teach' timing and rhythm in my experiences anyway!
Amount of drummers I've come across that have no timing at all and never will..... [/quote]

And conversely I've been in a band with a drummer who has had formal training for years, I think he's grade six or seven and whilst he could play pretty much any drum pattern you could ask him to with a particular time signature but his playing was extremely rigid, totally devoid of of any feel and completely unable to think outside of the box. He could only play the things that he's been formally taught.

Edited September 19, 2008 by Waldo

[Bilbo]

That's cos he's never met the magic drum pixie....

[Wil]

I think you'll find that the best things in life are actually free, as proven in the case of J Jackson VS L Vandross.

[deadraven]

[quote name='Waldo' post='287324' date='Sep 19 2008, 02:32 PM']And conversely I've been in a band with a drummer who has had formal training for years, I think he's grade six or seven and whilst he could play pretty much any drum pattern you could ask him to with a particular time signature but his playing was extremely rigid, totally devoid of of any feel and completely unable to think outside of the box. He could only play the things that he's been formally taught.[/quote]

I've met alot of people like that, not just drummers too.
All about the vibe with music !

[Wil]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='287321' date='Sep 19 2008, 02:28 PM']That's exactly the opposite of what I just said [/quote]

A conflicting opinion, how irregular.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='287321' date='Sep 19 2008, 02:28 PM']And as for fun; there is a concept called deferred gratification.[/quote]

Is that the same as thinking of John Major to hold off the vinegar strokes? My girlfriend is a fan.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='287321' date='Sep 19 2008, 02:28 PM']Not everything that is of value can be gleaned out of what is superficially 'fun'. The best things in life, the things that really matter, are often hard won.[/quote]

I think I would choose the fun path over the tedious path any day of the week, regardless of the outcome at the end. If that's short sighted, then fine, I think I can live with that...

[mcgraham]

The best musicians I've met and played with are the most teachable ones. That doesn't mean those that know the least, that doesn't mean those that know the most, it simply means those who are most keen to learn and most keen to play. Those who retain their humility in spite of all they learn or have learned. And from those passions they derive lasting creativity. At least IMO and IME.

[quote]I think I would choose the fun path over the tedious path any day of the week, regardless of the outcome at the end. If that's short sighted, then fine, I think I can live with that...[/quote]

I sincerely hope that is not your approach to all things in life. I really do.

Mark

[Wil]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='287361' date='Sep 19 2008, 03:04 PM']I sincerely hope that is not your approach to all things in life. I really do.[/quote]

Er, why? Can you give me an example of where choosing the path that gives you the most enjoyment over one that bores you silly isn't preferable?

I'm not saying that given the choice of paying the rent or snorting coke off a strippers tits I'd choose the latter, just that it makes more sense to do things you enjoy doing, rather than what is necessarily set out as "the correct path".

[lowhand_mike]

i've always said, and always will, if i ever stop enjoying the job that i do then it is time to find another job

[deadraven]

Dude, I've come across people that have no sense of timing, and truthfully, they never will, even if they trained. I'd put you in touch with them just so you could see for yourself, but I wouldnt want to take it that far.
This is only a forum, after all.

I think timing and rhythm are very alike and connected. But alas I cant be arsed to argue with musicians on a forum, waste of my time.

[SteveK]

Whether the learning of music theory is relevant or not to you as a musician will largely depend on the type of music you want to play.
If you are into playing punk, metal or playing covers and the like, and that's all you see yourself playing, then learning a load of theory may well be irrelevant...If I remember correctly, music theory is against punk law anyway!

However, if you're into other forms of music: funk; jazz; big band etc, then at least a basic knowledge of theory is going to hold you in good stead.

Of course, we have all heard about those wonderful musicians who know no theory - great grooves - totally original and imaginative bass lines. These guys are very gifted and very few and far between.
Most of us have to put in the hours/days/weeks/months/years.

Don't deceive yourself by thinking that you are one of the chosen few.

I spent many years as a professional "playing by ear"...it took me that long to realise that maybe my ears just weren't good enough.


And if all you want to do is get together with your mates, have a bit of a thrash a couple of nights a week - do the occasional (or more frequent) gig, and have a bit of fun, then learning a whole load of theory may also be pointless.

[quote]IS IT IMPORTANT, TO LEARN all the notes and stuff on a bass,i just cant be arsed with learning all the theory[/quote]
I commend the OP for his honesty...

However,learning the notes on the neck isn't theory... that's what you need to know before attempting to learn theory.

Steve

Edited September 19, 2008 by SteveK

[urb]

Wow this thread is still raging on - though it's good to see all points being made with both vigour and clarity.

I heard a great quote this week that I think is actually at the heart of the two sides of this debate, it was from a guy who just died actually, a sax player called George Lee. I'm sad to say I never knew the guy or his music but I think this is a great bit of advice to anyone, not just bass players/sax players/whoever:

[i][b]'To be a jazz musician, you have to think of yourself as an athlete. You have to practise every day. You have to have stamina. So, practise your scales but, when you get on the bandstand...

...PLAY MUSIC!'[/b][/i]

How you do that is up to you.

Mike

[ironside1966]

Just because bass player A is up on the theory side of things does not mean that he or she is automatically a better bass player then player B who knows nothing about theory.
If bass player B studied theory [u]properly[/u] then he or she will improve dramatically as a player.

I remember as a ignorant youth, after seeing a local jazz band, saying what a crap bass player any fool can play a 4 in a bar walking bass line.
Once I started understand theory and harmony, then I learnt to play walking lines and started to play in a few jazz bands. This opened up a complete new world for me and got me out of playing the same familiar shapes and patterns, witch in my ignorance I called playing by ear.

Saying all that , one of the best guitarist I have seen and had the pleasure to work had no understanding of theory at all.

Edited September 19, 2008 by ironside1966

[thisnameistaken]

I've snipped the parts of your posts which made it clear which side of the fence you were on - I'm sorry - I'm just responding to the hypothetical questions you posed because I liked them, I am aware of the point you were making even if I've obliterated it.

[quote name='ironside1966' post='287695' date='Sep 19 2008, 09:43 PM']Just because bass player A is up on the theory side of things does not mean that he or she is automatically a better bass player then player B who knows nothing about theory.[/quote]

True. But if both were equal on natural talent then the one with theory to back it up would piss all over the other one.

[quote name='ironside1966' post='287695' date='Sep 19 2008, 09:43 PM']one of the best guitarist I have seen and had the pleasure to work had no understanding of theory at all.[/quote]

This sort of example has occurred throughout this thread - the whole "I don't know any theory and I'm ace" mindset. But all that does for me is raise "what if" questions.

[ironside1966]

I am a music literate bass player with, a grade 8 in theory and grade 8 double bass and as I stated in my previous post the knowledge as been invaluable, so I am on the learning side, but I am not going to elevate myself over a none reader.
Steve K summed it up for me

‘’Of course, we have all heard about those wonderful musicians who know no theory - great grooves - totally original and imaginative bass lines. These guys are very gifted and very few and far between.
Most of us have to put in the hours/days/weeks/months/years.
Don't deceive yourself by thinking that you are one of the chosen few.
I spent many years as a professional "playing by ear"...it took me that long to realize that maybe my ears just weren't good enough.’’

I also agree with this statement.
“This sort of example has occurred throughout this thread - the whole "I don't know any theory and I'm ace" mindset. But all that does for me is raise "what if" questions”

I also think if you want to become a professional player then you should learn theory and to read. I nearly fell through the floor when I was at collage and the young teacher fresh from uni who taught music performance could not read simple cord charts, but that’s the world we live in.

INHO There are other skill which are important also like learning bass lines of songs from CD instead of relying on inaccurate tabs.

Also remember in this day and age there are things that are just as important to some bands such as image, age, personality.

But in the real wild the best person for the job wins regardless of what they know.