The trouble with modern music.....

[Bilbo]

I was thinking about this in realtion to the Uptown Funk tone thread started a couple of days ago.

One of the problems I increasingly experience with popular music of the current era is the relationship between the material being performed and the production vlaues thereof. The issue I have is not that there is a problem with it in itself but that, when people want to 'have a go' and reproduce the hits of the day, the sounds being made are unattainable.

The tone of the bass in Uptown Funk is one example obviously but there is much more to this that a bass tone. I did a gig recently where they played Uptown Funk and a load of similar hign production nuimbers and what was obvious to me is that it is all but impossible for a four or five piece band to even begin to approach the feel of the original.

A Jazz quartet sounds like a Jazz Quartet, a big band like a big band, a two guitar heavy metal band sounds like a two guitar heavy metal band and so on into Folk, Reggae etc etc. But with Pop recordings littered with complex and layered production, it is almost impossible to get the sounds, the horn parts, the weird production effects, massive vocal harmonies etc etc. As a result, when you play them at gigs, they sound, well, naff; empty, shallow, a shadow of the original. I think we did Happy and that Daft Punk Up All Night thing and, although we were tight and played something approximating the original, they all sounded a but s***. The Beatles Curse thread is interesting also in that the band resutled in a generation or three of guitar based bands knocking out A Hard Days Night but, as it went forward and got more and more intense in terms of the Martin productions, the bands they originally influenced probably got left behind as they couldn't afford to cart along a string quartet or full orchestra and tape effects (hence the Mellotron ). Even if you want to try, the outlay in terms of the kit necessary to pull some of these things off is prohibitive.

I am not criticising these productions; it is an art form itself and can be wonderful. Nevertheless, it does make it hard for bands to play convincing versions. Maybe that's the point. Simple arrangements can be done reasonably well, big production numbers can be a nightmare of compromise. I think my problem is that a lot of bands lack the critical sense to know when to leave something alone.

And tonight, I am playing 'Close To The Edge' arranged for double bass and harmonica.

[jonnythenotes]

A good read that is Bilbo..... Nice one centurion...

[TimR]

I think it is lack of imagination from the 'artist' who is covering the song.

Although it very much depends on how the 'song' was created.

If there is a strong hook, melody and lyrics then you can copy the song on a piano or acoustic guitar. The rest is just, as you say, production.

Often the band covering the material will get too hung up on copying the production and overlook the actual musical content (if there is any) to the detriment of what they are producing.

I played with a drummer who's first comment on hearing a new tune was always; we don't have an X in our lineup so we're not doing it.

Very short sighted and close minded.

[4-string-thing]

Yup, too many people out there who have no vision and get too hung up on trying to replicate a recording rather than covering a song...

[Bilbo]

Very good points. I am thinking that the problem isn't what I thought it was. It is the lack of an arrangement that is the issue. When I do function gigs, I am often presented with a chord chart that says F, Bb, C7 etc and then, occasionally, not always, something like 'Funky', or 'Shuffle'. The band never rehearses but just launches into a version that is based around some sort of shared consensus of what the thing kind of sounds like nearly. I have an idea of the bass part (from a distant recollection of hearing the tune once on a radio or even just on some concept of what 'Funky' or 'Shuffle' means) and everyone else has a nearly but not quite concept of the tune in their own mind. Because the end result is inevitably a poor approximation of the original, it sucks.

If someone comes in with a properly prepared chart or some specific arrangement ideas ('let's do X in 5:4', play the A section with bass and vocals only or whatever), then it often works. It's not the production on the original that is the problem, it is the lack of thought put into an arrangement for teh actual ensemble that is about to play it.

I am glad we had this conversation.

[TimR]

Yes. That's why I hate the term "Made it your own."

No they didn't, they just changed the arrangement.

And on X-Factor - someone else did that bit

In my mind that's the difference between a musician and someone who can play a musical instrument.

[BigRedX]

I think that it very much depends on what a covers band want to achieve.

Even "simple" 60s and 70s rock band recordings will be littered with extra guitar, keyboard, percussion and vocal overdubs. The trick is for the covering band to work out what is essential to the feel of the song and concentrate on getting these right. And you'll be amazed at how much you have to change the arrangement before the average non-musician audience member will notice. Ultimately these are the people who you really need to be entertaining. The only people who worry that the song doesn't sound like the original recording are the over-analysing musicians playing it.

Even in my very limited time playing bass in a covers band I would often find myself playing lines that owed far more to what the keyboards were doing on the recording than the original bass guitar part. But that was what was needed to make the song sound right in the context of our covers band.

IMO nail the overall feel, nail the dominant musical hooks and rehearse the songs properly to make sure that you have captured all the important elements.

Alternatively fill the band with multi-instrumentalists and the stage with extra equipment to ensure that you can replicate the sounds of the recording exactly.

Your call.

[TimR]

Just read through that thread. When my boy sings it with his headphones on, all you can hear is his voice. It sounds pretty good as is. The music is just filling.

[Lw.]

I like that the conclusion was found nice & quickly; there's nothing wrong with modern music, things just don't sound great if you're using the wrong tools & not enough preperation for the job.

If someone wants to do a like for like reproduction of Uptown Funk they should take their computer down to the venue and ask for the punters to wait while they click in the bass line, add a load of filters/octaves/effects/other general VST stuff then click play after a few days of faffing about. Maybe not what the audience came to see but certainly closer to its creation.

For me the art-form in that song is the song writing & managing to get a computer to sound like that, not the playing of instruments.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Lw.

[chris_b]

We play I Am The Walrus as a 4 piece with keys and Stax classics without a horn in sight.

Be realistic and don't touch anything that is plainly beyond your playing abilities.

As has been said take the essence of the song. Do that bit properly and you'll have a good cover.

[dand666]

Some great points here. Some times when people try and emulate the record too much it often sounds flat.

Trust me, now one in the audience is looking to see if Uptown Funk is played correctly, they're too busy partying and dancing. And thus our job is complete.

I play on cruise ships normally, but do functions when I'm on land. And as long as people can hear the hook, the chorus, that's all they care about. It seems too many people are hung on getting the right sound, when in all honesty, not a lot of people care.

We play ALOT of pop music, we find if we just strip it back a little, work out what's going on, it's relatively easy to fill out. Get that groove down then everything should fit in to place.

[ambient]

Having never heard uptown funk, or any real desire to hear it really, I think you just have to try and capture the essence of the song, and rearrange it according to whatever instrumentation is available.

Floyd albums for example are incredibly well produced and littered with musiqe concrete and other effects, yet that doesn't stop bands from doing great covers of their songs.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1441201723' post='2856884']
Having never heard uptown funk, or any real desire to hear it really, I think you just have to try and capture the essence of the song, and rearrange it according to whatever instrumentation is available.
[/quote]

Maybe you should have a listen to the track and then you can wonder what all the fuss is about!

It's a fairly standard funky pop song with a reasonably contemporary production and some cute synth/sample parts. Any keyboard player worth their salt should have the ability and equipment to get close enough for the average audience member to be satisfied.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1441206579' post='2856934']
Maybe you should have a listen to the track and then you can wonder what all the fuss is about!

It's a fairly standard funky pop song with a reasonably contemporary production and some cute synth/sample parts. Any keyboard player worth their salt should have the ability and equipment to get close enough for the average audience member to be satisfied.
[/quote]

I must admit, the thing that struck me when I first heard Uptown Funk was how retro it sounded.

[TimR]

I don't think the thread is particularly about Uptown Funk.

It could just as easily be about Superstition. That's full of synths and brass and layered vocals. The bass hook is played on a Rhodes.

Somewhere on keytalk there's a keys player moaning about five piece rock bands...

[BigRedX]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1441207862' post='2856953']
It could just as easily be about Superstition. That's full of synths and brass and layered vocals. The bass hook is played on a Rhodes.
[/quote]

Most of the sounds are easily achieved on todays synths and keyboard workstations. IMO a keyboard player in a covers band playing this kind of material should have the ability to programme all the appropriate sounds as well as play the parts.

Oh and IIRC the bass hook is played on a Clavinet.

[chevy-stu]

When I play it I use a combo of octave and bass balls pedals to fill it out on the choruses..

[Happy Jack]

In my experience it all matters far less than most musicians think.

Most of the time, what the punters "hear" is the original song playing in their heads.

The band that they are actually listening to is simply providing a playlist ...

[paul h]

Just to echo what has already been said, the real problem is the average, unimaginative pub rock musician who thinks everything should be played "like the record" as opposed to being played in a manner that works for that particular band.

[Roger2611]

We do Counting Stars (One Republic) and Will You Love Me Again (John Numan) I dislike both because I don't think we do them justice as a single guitar, Bass, drums and vox line up, I think they miss the light and shade the keys and other extras bring to the songs but, and it is a big butt Punters like them, they dance to them and comment on how unusual it was to hear the songs, I guess that largely they hear the missing parts in their heads (especially when beer has had some input) so give us license for the songs not to be an exact copy

[lojo]

[quote name='4-string-thing' timestamp='1441195676' post='2856811']
Yup, too many people out there who have no vision and get too hung up on trying to replicate a recording rather than covering a song...
[/quote]

These things are never as black and white as that, whilst I understand what you are saying and agree that applies to some situations, we have been doing an 80s set for a year now and have a lot of fun and get satisfaction trying to get close to the original.

Of course we can't recreate everything, but some songs work wonderfully well live with fewer instruments and others don't. The key seems to be figuring out what the guitar and keys are doing and the relationship between them, and alot of thought goes into it.

Pop's always been this way , it's not just modern songs, most of the 80s stuff we listen to has loads going on.

A good way to filter out what can work live is simply to youtube the original artist doing it, if it sounds bad by them, chances are we wont have any better equipment/synths, and less band members.

Edited September 2, 2015 by lojo

[SteveK]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1441196444' post='2856820']
Very good points. I am thinking that the problem isn't what I thought it was. It is the lack of an arrangement that is the issue. When I do function gigs, I am often presented with a chord chart that says F, Bb, C7 etc and then, occasionally, not always, something like 'Funky', or 'Shuffle'. The band never rehearses but just launches into a version that is based around some sort of shared consensus of what the thing kind of sounds like nearly. I have an idea of the bass part (from a distant recollection of hearing the tune once on a radio or even just on some concept of what 'Funky' or 'Shuffle' means) and everyone else has a nearly but not quite concept of the tune in their own mind. Because the end result is inevitably a poor approximation of the original, it sucks.
[/quote]
Sorry Bilbo, I'm missing your point! You seem to be saying that bands that don't rehearse and rely on charts only produce "a poor approximation of the original". Quite obviously, the same said band [i]that rehearse[/i] would a make a better fist of things!
Are you just saying that the musicians that you're involved with don't rehearse, and that you're not enjoying it for that reason?

[colgraff]

A fair point, Bilbo, I find this to be especially true with effects being applied to vocals that would be very expensive to reproduce live, but the alternative is my vocals sounding amateurish.
Up to a point, a response could be "Twas ever thus." with examples being Simon and Garfunkel double tracking each vocal track (having four vocal tracks between them) or Elvis having a full orchestra behind him whenever he pocked up a guitar.

I have no solution.

[Leonard Smalls]

If our band were doing "Uptown Funk" the bass would have 3 envelope follower pedals with a touch of tube distortion, with 2 lots of Mother's Finest style rockin' guitar, plus vocals through a vocoder...

[Old Man Riva]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1441193502' post='2856782']The Beatles Curse thread is interesting also in that the band resutled in a generation or three of guitar based bands knocking out A Hard Days Night..[/quote]
Probably not the best example you could have chosen, given that most bands would struggle to make the first chord sound like the record!

http://www.beatlesbible.com/features/hard-days-night-chord