The trouble with modern music.....

[lowdown]

[quote name='Old Man Riva' timestamp='1441218125' post='2857077']

Probably not the best example you could have chosen, given that most bands would struggle to make the first chord sound like the record!

http://www.beatlesbible.com/features/hard-days-night-chord
[/quote]

Ah, thaaaat...chord.
Not been discussed for a while on Basschat (unless it's in the curse thread).
http://youtu.be/gwfH9oAiPH0

[TimR]

[quote name='colgraff' timestamp='1441217105' post='2857058']
A fair point, Bilbo, I find this to be especially true with effects being applied to vocals that would be very expensive to reproduce live, but the alternative is my vocals sounding amateurish.
Up to a point, a response could be "Twas ever thus." with examples being Simon and Garfunkel double tracking each vocal track (having four vocal tracks between them) or Elvis having a full orchestra behind him whenever he pocked up a guitar.

I have no solution.
[/quote]

The solution is to introduce passion into the vocal.

If instruments are missing or not exactly as the original instrumentation then it will sound more amateurish if you attempt to copy the sound and slightly miss. It'll make it sound like you're trying too hard.

So you either get it bang on, downloading keys FX etc, or you change the arrangement completely so that maybe the guitar is covering parts the missing keys are playing etc.

[TimR]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1441215460' post='2857036']

Sorry Bilbo, I'm missing your point! You seem to be saying that bands that don't rehearse and rely on charts only produce "a poor approximation of the original". Quite obviously, the same said band [i]that rehearse[/i] would a make a better fist of things!
Are you just saying that the musicians that you're involved with don't rehearse, and that you're not enjoying it for that reason?
[/quote]

It's the time spent on the arrangement that is crucial, not the rehearsal time. The bass player will half remember the line and the drums will half remember the drum part. Everyone will try too hard to mash the arrangement together and the result will be a mess.

Usually bands use rehearsals (practices) to see how their parts that they worked out at home fit what everyone else is playing. It's at those practices that the parts are altered and the arrangements become more solid. You can't magic a complexly produced song out of some chord charts, or even from just reproducing the individual instrument parts exactly as they are in the record. The more complex the original, the more work needs to be done on the arrangement.

Edited September 2, 2015 by TimR

[Dad3353]

I'd not call this a modern phenomenon, either. Classical, orchestral works were (and still are...) seldom played with the exact make-up that the composer specified, and so were re-arranged to fit the bill of the day. That's part of the job of the conductor/chef d'orchestra. Similarly with folk, and most other idioms, such as theatre pit orchestras or palm court tea dances. No different today, I'd suggest; if the players aren't there, adapt to suit what's available. If one gets close to the original, all well and good; if not... Well, that's the way it goes. It'll be different, won't it..?
Not quite the same in 'jazz' formations, where the name of the game is, mostly, to [i]not [/i]be like any other rendering. Sometimes an improvement, sometimes less so, but that's just in the nature of 'jazz' playing.

[cybertect]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1441236395' post='2857231']
I'd not call this a modern phenomenon, either. Classical, orchestral works were (and still are...) seldom played with the exact make-up that the composer specified, and so were re-arranged to fit the bill of the day. That's part of the job of the conductor/chef d'orchestra. Similarly with folk, and most other idioms, such as theatre pit orchestras or palm court tea dances. No different today, I'd suggest; if the players aren't there, adapt to suit what's available. If one gets close to the original, all well and good; if not... Well, that's the way it goes. It'll be different, won't it..?
[/quote]

Quite. People like The Stones and Clapton directly took old blues songs and riffs and put them into the context of what became blues-rock with electric amplification.

One of the covers that my four piece band will slip into a set in ELO's Mr Blue Sky. Nobody complains that we don't have the orchestration of the original; it's always very well received and we've even been asked several times to play it again straight after or as an encore.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1441215460' post='2857036']
Sorry Bilbo, I'm missing your point! You seem to be saying that bands that don't rehearse and rely on charts only produce "a poor approximation of the original". Quite obviously, the same said band [i]that rehearse[/i] would a make a better fist of things!
Are you just saying that the musicians that you're involved with don't rehearse, and that you're not enjoying it for that reason?
[/quote]

Yes and no. Obviously a band that rehearses would be a good idea but, in truth, properly produced charts and reading musicians can achieve the same outcome but then they would have to have music stands on the stage and we wouldn't want that now, would we?

[roceci]

I don't get the OP, is your point that producers should stop making songs with treated sounds because we can't emulate them live?

It is what it is & you just make the best of it. A keys guy with multiple boards goes a long way to making those noises happen live, works for us. As for Uptown Funk, I play it straight every time tone-wise & I've never had anything but a big 'whoooo!!!' from the audience when they hear it. They loves that tune they does.

As for really, really treated stuff, it's a judgement call on whether it'll work or not. I don't think we'll be pulling out the title track off Funkadelic's Free Your Mind... any time soon for instance

[colgraff]

@ TimR.

Thank you for telling me what is wrong with my singing. If only I had known that all I needed to do was to sing with passion, I wouldn't have wasted the last 20 years behind a microphone!

Trust me, it is very, very hard to manage vocal synth effects either by way of a vocoder and/or effect patches while playing bass and singing at the same time. Obviously, for the Geddy Lees among us, that is less true. It could be that you are one, in which case I apologise.

[TimR]

[quote name='colgraff' timestamp='1441273314' post='2857371']
@ TimR.

Thank you for telling me what is wrong with my singing. If only I had known that all I needed to do was to sing with passion, I wouldn't have wasted the last 20 years behind a microphone!

Trust me, it is very, very hard to manage vocal synth effects either by way of a vocoder and/or effect patches while playing bass and singing at the same time. Obviously, for the Geddy Lees among us, that is less true. It could be that you are one, in which case I apologise.
[/quote]

That's what I was saying.

There's little point in trying and missing or ending up sounding amateurish.

Just sing with no effects.

Absolutely no one in the audience is going to say. You sounded rubbish because you didn't use vocoder on Living On A Prayer intro.

We don't even add that part.

Lots of effects that sound great on a produced record just sound pathetic or like the band are trying too hard when they can either be missed off or done some other way for a more fresh sound.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='paul h' timestamp='1441209984' post='2856979']
Just to echo what has already been said, the real problem is the average, unimaginative pub rock musician who thinks everything should be played "like the record" as opposed to being played in a manner that works for that particular band.
[/quote]

A lot of covers don't do either though - they don't make an effort to play it like the recording or to rearrange it to suit their band, they just dirge it out playing the melody and chords with vaguely appropriate generic groove. In many cases I guess many of the players have never properly listened to the original song and by that I mean sat down with it instrument in hand, but are rather just busking it from having heard it on the radio 5 years ago or something. I don't expect a note for note rendition but I do expect some concious effort to be made to capture the key elements and feel of a song.

Edited September 3, 2015 by bassman7755

[TimR]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1441283414' post='2857516']


A lot of covers don't do either though - they don't make an effort to play it like the recording or to rearrange it to suit their band, they just dirge it out playing the melody and chords with vaguely appropriate generic groove. In many cases I guess many of the players have never properly listened to the original song and by that I mean sat down with it instrument in hand, but are rather just busking it from having heard it on the radio 5 years ago or something. I don't expect a note for note rendition but I do expect some concious effort to be made to capture the key elements and feel of a song.
[/quote]

I think that's Bilbo's original point, or at least what he means in his second post.

I played in a band where a couple of the 'musos' had that attitude. They know how to play music, they've been doing it for years, just approximate the chords, it'll be ok.

Often there are subtle things going on, particularly where the bass isn't playing roots, or where a drum pattern subtly changes to accommodate a different lyric, or even as simple as external dynamics between the verse and chorus. Those parts are where the arrangement matters - ignore them and that's when you get it sounding like it's just being bashed out.

[Bilbo]

It's aproblem with Jazzers. We know all sorts of stuff about music and have an appalling attitude to commercial musics of any kind. The philosphy seems to be that 'it's pop, it's mostly sh*t and we can play it standing on our heads and probably better'.

What they do badly is, for a start, sound. They just turn up with their 'portable' gear and don't really consider the timbre of their instrument as part of the ensemble sound. They see a chord and play 'their' version of it without any insight into voice leading aspects of the [i]song [/i](as opposed to the harmony). They miss out details that are often definitive; riffs, licks etc (I do a commercial gig where they do 'I WIll Survive'. When it comes to that wonderful 'solo' (the one Robbie WIlliams nicked for Millenium), the keyboard player blows a solo - it just sounds so wrong) and are often quite uninformed about genres and sub-genres. They are very casual about starts and endings and can be appalling at 'stage craft' (lots of standing around deciding what to do next). They have their strengths as well; they tend to be better at dynamics and their tempos tend to be a little more centred but, fundamentally, the average Jazzer's attitude to the integrity of commercial music is s***.

When they get it right, when they have a respected MD etc, these players can be the absoute best but, being absolutely honest about it, Jazz musicians can, if not 'contained', be an absolute nightamre

[dand666]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1441292147' post='2857647']
It's aproblem with Jazzers. We know all sorts of stuff about music and have an appalling attitude to commercial musics of any kind. The philosphy seems to be that 'it's pop, it's mostly sh*t and we can play it standing on our heads and probably better'.

What they do badly is, for a start, sound. They just turn up with their 'portable' gear and don't really consider the timbre of their instrument as part of the ensemble sound. They see a chord and play 'their' version of it without any insight into voice leading aspects of the [i]song [/i](as opposed to the harmony). They miss out details that are often definitive; riffs, licks etc (I do a commercial gig where they do 'I WIll Survive'. When it comes to that wonderful 'solo' (the one Robbie WIlliams nicked for Millenium), the keyboard player blows a solo - it just sounds so wrong) and are often quite uninformed about genres and sub-genres. They are very casual about starts and endings and can be appalling at 'stage craft' (lots of standing around deciding what to do next). They have their strengths as well; they tend to be better at dynamics and their tempos tend to be a little more centred but, fundamentally, the average Jazzer's attitude to the integrity of commercial music is s***.

When they get it right, when they have a respected MD etc, these players can be the absoute best but, being absolutely honest about it, Jazz musicians can, if not 'contained', be an absolute nightamre
[/quote]

It's funny, because on the ships, the jazz band is amazing, like phenomenal, but they couldn't get up on stage and rock the sh*t out of Taylor Swift. It's weird, because when I'm finished, I always go and watch the jazzers play, and they do the same to us. A lot of mutual respect which I love.

[Bilbo]

There are increasingly a number of Jazz musicians who also play commercial music more than convincingly (Jason Rebello with Jeffe Beck, for instance). All it requires is discipline and some knowledge/insight into the musics being performed. My point is that, nowadays, this remains exceptional. I have to admit that I am part of the problem and recent events in my own career have brought this home to me. The problem is that to create a polished commercial product of any description takes time that, to my mind and that of many other Jazzers, is not really worth it 'emotionally'. My thinking recently is that surely a polished product will be more satisfying that the thrashing around / that'll do / nearly but not quite approach I have taken for the last two decades!! The idea scenario is properly produced charts (did a wedding last month where this was the idea and it was much better). I can play most genres convincingly and quite quickly if the dots are there but sometimes even that is not enough.

[ubit]

The thing is, a really good song can be stripped down to play even on a single acoustic guitar. The band should try to do their own version of said song and embrace the "spaces" left. I do, however agree that modern pop songs are just about impossible to replicate live as they sound in the studio, which is why so many of these artists mime to backing tracks

[Bilbo]

I just wanted to point out that my thread title was ironic. There is nothing wrong with the production values of modern pop music. I just wanted to register how hard it is for the little guy to keep up with the technology used in producing it. I guess a parallel would be a local group trying to put on a gig in a pub versus a full-on Iron Maiden stage/lighting set up.

[TimR]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1441360246' post='2858207']
I just wanted to point out that my thread title was ironic. There is nothing wrong with the production values of modern pop music. I just wanted to register how hard it is for the little guy to keep up with the technology used in producing it. I guess a parallel would be a local group trying to put on a gig in a pub versus a full-on Iron Maiden stage/lighting set up.
[/quote]

You have just reminded me of the amount of gear the drummer in an old band wanted us to carry around for our 'stage show'.

[TimR]

I would argue that even the big names who mime and have other huge productions don't always get it right. Mainly due to acoustics of the venue.

The more production you cram into a song the harder it is to hear the important parts of the song when you get into a reverberant venue. Everything often just turns to mush.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1441360246' post='2858207']
I just wanted to point out that my thread title was ironic. There is nothing wrong with the production values of modern pop music. I just wanted to register how hard it is for the little guy to keep up with the technology used in producing it. I guess a parallel would be a local group trying to put on a gig in a pub versus a full-on Iron Maiden stage/lighting set up.
[/quote]

I wonder how much of it might be "the trouble with audiences"? Some people are happy just to hear the song played well using whatever palette of sounds is available to the performer, while others seem to judge the quality of the performance by how closely it resembles the record. The latter group might have to adjust their expectations a little when attending small venue gigs.

[Lw.]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1441360246' post='2858207']
I just wanted to point out that my thread title was ironic. There is nothing wrong with the production values of modern pop music. I just wanted to register how hard it is for the little guy to keep up with the technology used in producing it.
[/quote]

Although a lot of new music & sounds, especially in the electronic music area, is being produced by people with no budget in their bedrooms on a laptop.

I remember having a big office discussion/argument a few years ago about whether we should be listening to music on crappy iphone headphones rather than the pro audio equipment we had in the office. The logic behind it was questioning whether we should be trying to hear the music exactly how the artist was creating it & how they were hearing it rather than using expensive equipment that common practice would have us use.

[ubit]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1441364529' post='2858264']


I wonder how much of it might be "the trouble with audiences"? Some people are happy just to hear the song played well using whatever palette of sounds is available to the performer, while others seem to judge the quality of the performance by how closely it resembles the record. The latter group might have to adjust their expectations a little when attending small venue gigs.
[/quote]

We played a gig once when the bass was cutting out more or less all the time in the first set. The dance floor was full and when we came off, lots of folk were saying " that was great" I deduced that, as long as you have a beat, recognisable singing and a guitar making near enough tuneful noises, everyone's happy !

[chris_b]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1441193502' post='2856782']
.... when people want to 'have a go' and reproduce the hits of the day, the sounds being made are unattainable....
.... all but impossible for a four or five piece band to even begin to approach the feel of the original....
[/quote]

At the end of the day they are only songs and if you can carry the song you've done your job.

I know a one_man_show_with_backing_tracks who is so good you could close your eyes and be listening to the original artist. I know another great player who plays with one acoustic guitar and voice and every song sounds like him.

They are both fantastic players and because they play the songs as well as they do it doesn't matter how they play them.

The only problem here is inexperience, trying to take on too much and failing.

[tauzero]

[quote name='dand666' timestamp='1441201633' post='2856881']
I play on cruise ships normally, but do functions when I'm on land. And as long as people can hear the hook, the chorus, that's all they care about. It seems too many people are hung on getting the right sound, when in all honesty, not a lot of people care.
[/quote]

I keep pointing out that it's a bass, it sounds like a bass. Last night, I played the first set on a Warwick fretted bass with roundwounds on and the second set on a Sei fretless bass with flatwounds on, because I felt like it (I must be one of those against whom MiltyG rails). I'm pretty sure that the only difference that the audience noticed was that I stopped hitting the lights with the headstock.

[leschirons]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1441364529' post='2858264']
I wonder how much of it might be "the trouble with audiences"? Some people are happy just to hear the song played well using whatever palette of sounds is available to the performer, while others seem to judge the quality of the performance by how closely it resembles the record. The latter group might have to adjust their expectations a little when attending small venue gigs.
[/quote]

That'd be the difference between a normal pub crowd out for a good time and musos in the audience who can't wait to pull a performance to pieces.

Most audiences don't know what's going on. They have selective hearing, especially when it comes to intros. That is, in no way an excuse for shoddy playing and production but how many times have we all been unhappy with our own, or band's performance only to hear how brilliant a night the audience had.

By way of example, I can think of four different ways I could play the intro to Smoke on the water. Only a guitarist in the audience would comment on what constituted "correct" The well oiled aging punter who's waited all night for his favourite song will be over the moon with whatever.