All the gear and no-eye-dear

[kodiakblair]

I never laugh at entry gear, I had a Kay from the Grattan book

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1441291759' post='2857642']
For the fairly light duty gigging most of us do, cheaper electric guitars or basses can do just fine, but I think if I were a pro with a heavy touring or recording schedule I'd want to spend a little more - perhaps not crazy boutique stuff, but certainly something at the level of a Fender or Musicman, the more no-frills end of small UK luthiers or even some of the better mid-range Korean instruments. There are all kinds of little things which crop up with heavy use, like the softer fretwire used on many cheaper instruments, or the quality of the electronics and tuners. These things can be upgraded of course, but not everyone likes to spend time tinkering with their gear.
[/quote]

Sure. Here's an interesting thought. What if you and your band have a few thousand fans internationally, and you do a European tour. Lot's of young, fresh-faced youngsters are so impressed and inspired by your music, that they decide they want to learn guitar/bass/whatever it is you play. But, being a hardcore fan, they want to sound like Beer from their favourite band (as kids always do). Wouldn't it be nice for your sound to be so accessible that anyone willing to spend a few hundred when starting out could achieve it? Isn't that a nice idea? Would it compromise the enjoyment your fans get?

[skankdelvar]

Although I'm a bit of a gear head I often find myself listening to the instrument rather than focussing on the song I'm playing. That's more in the context of solo acoustic guitar (which is my main focus atm) than in the context of bass playing in an ensemble where the minutiae of tone gets lost anyway.

Sometimes I have to force myself not to think about the [i]nature[/i] of the sounds coming out of the instrument and concentrate instead on what the sounds are actually [i]doing[/i] in a musical sense. After a little while I settle down into the song and everything's fine.

Gear can sometimes be an impediment to forming a communication. The danger lies in sitting there playing a particularly scrumptious chord and thinking 'Doesn't this sound nice and Gibson-y'. Two hours later the missus calls up the stairs and the song you meant to write remains entirely unfinished.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441292109' post='2857646']
Sure. Here's an interesting thought. What if you and your band have a few thousand fans internationally, and you do a European tour. Lot's of young, fresh-faced youngsters are so impressed and inspired by your music, that they decide they want to learn guitar/bass/whatever it is you play. But, being a hardcore fan, they want to sound like Beer from their favourite band (as kids always do). Wouldn't it be nice for your sound to be so accessible that anyone willing to spend a few hundred when starting out could achieve it? Isn't that a nice idea? Would it compromise the enjoyment your fans get?
[/quote]

there is that thought, i think the bass player from Fallout boy plays a squire and it aint that dear, its a signiture but more in reach of start ups.

one thing i have noticed about my new bass is it shows up my playing faults more than before (this may be due to changing to 5 strings but not only that)

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1441292228' post='2857651']
Although I'm a bit of a gear head I often find myself listening to the instrument rather than focussing on the song I'm playing. That's more in the context of solo acoustic guitar (which is my main focus atm) than in the context of bass playing in an ensemble where the minutiae of tone gets lost anyway.

Sometimes I have to force myself not to think about the [i]nature[/i] of the sounds coming out of the instrument and concentrate instead on what the sounds are actually [i]doing[/i] in a musical sense. After a little while I settle down into the song and everything's fine.

Gear can sometimes be an impediment to forming a communication. The danger lies in sitting there playing a particularly scrumptious chord and thinking 'Doesn't this sound nice and Gibson-y'. Two hours later the missus calls up the stairs and the song you meant to write remains entirely unfinished.
[/quote]

I must say when we met last week, first thing you said was "There's a nice Gibson J-32". At this point, I had spent a full 24 hours in the room with it, and hadn't even noticed it. I played lots of nice instruments, but exactly what they were, I couldn't tell you much. Nobody really discussed that. Everything was very much to do with making musical connections, not getting bogged down in tone and gear. And everyone sounded great!

[odysseus]

Nowt wrong with budget gear, and nowt wrong with wanting something better. I played crappy basses for years, but my playing improved immensely as soon as I bought a good 'un. That said, the quality of budget basses is much better than it was when I was a pup. Getting better amp gear also makes a difference to a musician. Like someone said, Joe Bloggs down the Dog And Duck probably won't notice or even care, but anyone who's into their music and sees bands regularly probably will. The band I'm in now gets much more praise for the sound than when they had the previous guy with his tinny little combo, even though he was a good player. I ain't Jaco but I've got good gear and it makes a big difference to the overall sound.

[Annoying Twit]

I wonder how many bands have bassists who play Squiers with Fender labels on the headstock.

[odysseus]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1441292998' post='2857670']
I wonder how many bands have bassists who play Squiers with Fender labels on the headstock.
[/quote]

I've seen it happen!

No real need IMO, I've played plenty of Squiers which were ace.

[chris_b]

Nice stuff makes me play better. Sounding better than the next guy is part of the competition and the striving for success that is making music and playing to an audience.

Sounding good increases you confidence, which improves your groove and note choices. Now that really [i]does[/i] matter to others. Who are you going to offer the gig to, a guy who sounds crap and plays well or a guy who sounds good and plays better?

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1441293169' post='2857676']
Nice stuff makes me play better. Sounding better than the next guy is part of the competition and the striving for success that is making music and playing to an audience.

Sounding good increases you confidence, which improves your groove and note choices. Now that really [i]does[/i] matter to others. Who are you going to offer the gig to, a guy who sounds crap and plays well or a guy who sounds good and plays better?
[/quote]

+1

[cheddatom]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441291151' post='2857633']
I think it's entirely unjustifiable today to spend £2,000 on an acoustic guitar. The sheer quality of some instruments at the £500 mark is incredible (check out Faith Naked series - absolutely beautiful!). There are low-key artists out there who play signature Farida guitars and basses, and they're far from Gibson money, but they sound great. And besides all that, the punters in the local pub still don't care about the minutia of tone, so setting aside issues of tone, why do we do it? Why do we laugh at some entry-level gear, when that could be what spawns a great career for a great musician?
[/quote]

Like I said, I held the same opinion. Faith are great, as are many other brands. None have the low end this £2000 gibson has

[Beer of the Bass]

I feel like acoustic instruments are a bit of a different case. I'd agree that it's not essential to spend a huge amount just to get out and get playing, and the nuances tend to disappear through an undersaddle piezo and a pub PA system. Having said that, the more expensive instruments which get some individual attention in their manufacture really do have something that the cheaper instruments lack, and this will come through in spades in the studio, in more intimate acoustic settings or mic'd into a high quality PA.
Spending tens of thousands on something made from esoteric woods and dripping with pearl is still an indulgence, but I would argue that spending a couple of grand on a handmade instrument is not. I may be biased by having a classical guitar luthier in the family, but I can hear a degree of difference between a £500 acoustic and a £3000 acoustic which I cannot hear between electric guitars or basses at the same price points. I wouldn't laugh at somebody for choosing an instrument within their means, but nor would I dismiss the value of many of the higher end instruments.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Beer of the Bass

[Lozz196]

For myself I just don`t feel "right" unless I`m using a US Precision, but I`ve seen many bands - some of which are quite well known - using Squiers, Mex Fenders, and ages old Peavey amps, the like of which you can pick up for £250, and they`ve all sounded great.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1441294578' post='2857696']
I feel like acoustic instruments are a bit of a different case. I'd agree that it's not essential to spend a huge amount just to get out and get playing, and the nuances tend to disappear through an undersaddle piezo and a pub PA system. Having said that, the more expensive instruments which get some individual attention in their manufacture really do have something that the cheaper instruments lack, and this will come through in spades in the studio, in more intimate acoustic settings or mic'd into a high quality PA.
Spending tens of thousands on something made from esoteric woods and dripping with pearl is still an indulgence, but I would argue that spending a couple of grand on a handmade instrument is not. I may be biased by having a classical guitar luthier in the family, but I can hear a degree of difference between a £500 acoustic and a £3000 acoustic which I cannot hear between electric guitars or basses at the same price points. I wouldn't laugh at somebody for choosing an instrument within their means, but nor would I dismiss the value of many of the higher end instruments.
[/quote]

I'm not saying that expensive instruments don't offer something more than cheap instruments, or that they don't have their place. I'm just questioning why some feel they need them for the local pubs and weddings band that many are in? So far the answer seems to be "because I like it", which is fine. Personally, I find it more important to disregard brands and "that tone" and go for what feels good to play, and will be a faithful workhorse for the many gigs the local covers band plays. Drunk people and the happy bride and groom (other combinations are also available) won't notice a jot of difference between the Faith and the Gibson.

[bassbiscuits]

Some of my gear is Far Eastern budget stuff, but sounds fine and works well.

But when I use my more expensive better quality stuff, it makes me really enjoy more the whole experience of playing it, which I'm sure is reflected in the way I play and which is something the audience benefit from, whether they realise it or not.

Nothing wrong with using great equipment if you personally can appreciate the difference, as its money well spent.

But if you don't need that level of detail or quality, that's no problem either - plenty of decent budget kit out there.

Regardless of what you're using, the main thing is that you're playing something good with it surely?

[geoham]

I play in a band with an orchestral violinist, and her violin is worth about the same as my house, her bow about the same as my car and she pays as much for a set of strings as some folk on here have paid for a bass! Of course, there are far cheaper alternatives, but she insists there's a clearly noticable difference in sound. Presumably her orchestra collegues are much the same. Personally, I think I'd struggle to tell the difference if they all played Chinese mass produced instruments....

[Paul S]

This thread seems rather too close to trolling for comfort. OP says he doesn't see the point of high end gear for weekend warriors, weekend warrior says he gets it because he likes it, OP repeats that he doesn't see the point. Copy and paste to all respondents. Why does it matter, other than to try and provoke a response?

[BigRedX]

I have some expensive gear, some cheap gear and some in between. All of it was bought because it does the job required of it which is to make me look sound and feel good.

I think very few people buy expensive gear simply because it is expensive. They buy it because there is nothing cheaper that has the same look, sound and playability that they want.

And I do think that better gear makes you play better. I certainly noticed when I bought my first really good instruments - a Yamaha super strat and an Overwater Bass. My playing improved no end simply because the only thing holding me back now was my ability (or lack of) rather than limitations of the instrument(s) that I was playing.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='geoham' timestamp='1441296113' post='2857711']
I play in a band with an orchestral violinist, and her violin is worth about the same as my house, her bow about the same as my car and she pays as much for a set of strings as some folk on here have paid for a bass! Of course, there are far cheaper alternatives, but she insists there's a clearly noticable difference in sound. Presumably her orchestra collegues are much the same. Personally, I think I'd struggle to tell the difference if they all played Chinese mass produced instruments....
[/quote]

Ah, the world of classical music is indeed an expensive and unclear one!

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1441296155' post='2857712']
This thread seems rather too close to trolling for comfort.
[/quote]

No, just interested to know why cheaper gear isn't good enough for many "weekend warriors". If I provoked a response, I'm getting the answers that I'm looking for. Many people have given their opinions, which is exactly what I wanted.

[Rich]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441291151' post='2857633']
I think it's entirely unjustifiable today to spend £2,000 on an acoustic guitar.
[/quote]
Ah, the old 'unjustifiable expense' chestnut again. It was probably about time for another of these threads.

[elephantgrey]

This is why we cant have nice things…

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441292852' post='2857663']
I must say when we met last week, first thing you said was "There's a nice Gibson J-32". [/quote]

At the risk of further reinforcing my anorak status I must point out the guitar was a [i]J45[/i] - an instrument for which my GAS is without bounds.

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441292852' post='2857663'] Everything was very much to do with making musical connections, not getting bogged down in tone and gear. And everyone sounded great!
[/quote]

And such was my view having watched the post-workshop concert. But another thing struck me which I have subsequently discussed with a couple of close friends who play.

In the course of the evening the 'student' acts were interspersed with performances by the course tutors. Lovely giving chaps though the tutors may be, their performances lacked the directness and apparent honesty that radiated from the students. There was an intervening veil - almost like a net curtain - that came between the tutor-performer and the audience; whereas the students made a strong, direct emotional connection.

The tutors were clearly more 'musically accomplished' and not in a flashy way. Yet the sense of two-way communication was lacking, almost as if the self-awareness of being a performing 'musician' placed a kind of barrier between the performer and the audience. That 'self-awareness' detracted from the quality of the engagement. The students were communicating; the tutors were performing.

It's a subtle difference and not to the discredit of the pro tutors. But it was noticeable to the extent that I turned my band's subsequent rehearsal over to a reconsideration of what we're trying to do. We chucked technical and tonal expectations out of the window, stripped some songs right back and focussed on just listening to ourselves and to what was happening in the silences. Big improvement.

So thanks for the invite and for an illuminating evening. We should have done a selfie.

[chris_b]

Firstly, I don't think anything in the classical world is at all unclear. It is a very focussed world for one good reason, they take musical excellence to levels we can never understand.

Secondly, I think we have to allow "weekend warriors" to make their own choices. Some of which might look strange but no worse than my old next door neighbour taking the kids to school and then doing the Tesco run in her husbands brand new 911. I don't think she ever got out of second gear.

I would be very interested to see how raids on gigs to enforce a musical equivalent of the Sumptuary laws would pan out.

[ubit]

In my experience, I find that unless you are playing pretty quietly, or at the other end of the scale, using professional equipment, the instrument and amplification you are using makes very little noticeable difference. If you are in a small venue and you can hear the instrument, then yes, a good guitar or amp/speaker will be noticeable. If you start ramping up the volume, no one really hears whether it's a Fender P or a Gibson Thunderbird. I know some will disagree, but it's only when you are using high end PA gear that your guitar sound will be accurately reproduced FOH

[lojo]

If a weekend warrior wants to buy expensive gear then thats their call, assuming they are earning their money and paying their taxes, who's to say otherwise.

I see football players who can't control a ball wearing expensive boots, and know plenty of guys in my social circles who drive sports cars that do more than 70 and fill the boot with expensive golf clubs, way above their ability (im not into golf or cars) , whats the difference ?

Personally I like playing through my mark bass rig and effects, which I suppose is expensive , but oddly my current bass of choice is a budget Yamaha, but thats because I like it, not because of any cash restraints i've put on myself buying gear.

If we are going to talk about "all the gear, no idea" then I think Cyclists are currently leading this trend, but again, if thats their passion and they earn their money, good luck to them (though get some road safety lessons)