All the gear and no-eye-dear

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1441298264' post='2857738']
I would be very interested to see how raids on gigs to enforce a musical equivalent of the Sumptuary laws would pan out.
[/quote]

I don't think we talk about the Sumptuary laws anywhere near as often as we should. The position on the 'Bass Player Hat' needs revision, IMO.

The perception of 'unnecessarily expensive gear' bears some investigation too. Of course it is right and proper that we should be able to buy whatever we like without fear of criticism. But if we accept the law of diminishing returns (as I believe we do) then what exists in the gap between the instrument that one plays and one which is half the price but just as functionally effective.

That which resides in the balance may be one (or more) of a hundred things: misplaced understanding; egotism; aesthetic pleasure; personal estimations of what is conceptually 'valid'; audience expectations; compliance with informal 'heritage' laws; physical 'feel'; technical appreciation of the instrument's quality.

It is not mandatory that the debate descend into acrimony simply because we may incorrectly attribute the possession of a 'nice' instrument to misplaced self-aggrandisement. It is all so much deeper and more interesting than that.

For example: why do some audience members care about whether a bass is a Fender or not? What is in their minds? Should we explore their reasoning? What happens if we do not comply with expectations? Does a 'real Fender' make audiences come back for more? Do they know that some Fenders are actually Squiers with hooky logos?

I'm totally on this audience engagement thing at the moment.

Edited September 3, 2015 by skankdelvar

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Rich' timestamp='1441297164' post='2857722']
Ah, the old 'unjustifiable expense' chestnut again.
[/quote]

Looking purely at the facts, spending £2,000 on a guitar to play 15 £200 gigs throughout the year doesn't make business sense.

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1441297972' post='2857736']
At the risk of further reinforcing my anorak status I must point out the guitar was a [i]J45[/i] - an instrument for which my GAS is without bounds.

And such was my view having watched the post-workshop concert. But another thing struck me which I have subsequently discussed with a couple of close friends who play.

In the course of the evening the 'student' acts were interspersed with performances by the course tutors. Lovely giving chaps though the tutors may be, their performances lacked the directness and apparent honesty that radiated from the students. There was an intervening veil - almost like a net curtain - that came between the tutor-performer and the audience; whereas the students made a strong, direct emotional connection.

The tutors were clearly more 'musically accomplished' and not in a flashy way. Yet the sense of two-way communication was lacking, almost as if the self-awareness of being a performing 'musician' placed a kind of barrier between the performer and the audience. That 'self-awareness' detracted from the quality of the engagement. The students were communicating; the tutors were performing.

It's a subtle difference and not to the discredit of the pro tutors. But it was noticeable to the extent that I turned my band's subsequent rehearsal over to a reconsideration of what we're trying to do. We chucked technical and tonal expectations out of the window, stripped some songs right back and focussed on just listening to ourselves and to what was happening in the silences. Big improvement.

So thanks for the invite and for an illuminating evening. We should have done a selfie.
[/quote]

It was a very enjoyable evening, and I agree, the student performances were very personal and even moving at points. I was brought on a journey by some. Kashmir, although great to listen to, really didn't have the same emotional impact.

[timmo]

I bought the most expensive bass i could afford when i started, because i know that i will keep learning to play to the best of my ability. If i had spent £300 on all the gear, i would give up fairly easily, compared to if i lay out a large chunk of cash on any thing that takes time to learn. Probably not the best bass for the money, but i like it, and that is all that counts for me.
As for business sense on spending £2000 on a guitar. It is something you will be playing in your spare time and takes up a lot of your leisure time, so why not treat yourself to the best you can afford

[Twigman]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1441292998' post='2857670']
I wonder how many bands have bassists who play Squiers with Fender labels on the headstock.
[/quote]

For years and years I played a Squier with a Squier label on the headstock (albeit a JV) the budget bass of the early 80s.
I've recorded albums with it.
It's retired now.
I don't have a branded bass these days as have built the basses I use from Warmoth and Status parts.
I sort of have GAS for a Spector NS2 at the moment but I'm sure it will pass

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441299278' post='2857753']
Looking purely at the facts, spending £2,000 on a guitar to play 15 £200 gigs throughout the year doesn't make business sense.
[/quote]

I'm not sure that business sense is the motivator for most peoples music making, and we would be hearing some fairly dismal stuff if it was. If the sound and responsiveness of that £2000 guitar inspires the player to practice and write more and they can afford it, it seems worthwhile. Plenty of people on here have talked about being inspired to kick up their playing to the next level when upgrading to a professional quality instrument. For me that happened when I changed from a thumpy sounding Chinese plywood double bass to a 100 year old carved bass which is louder, clearer and more even sounding, feels better to play and is easier to control under the bow. Perhaps the amount my gigs pay hasn't increased, but my playing experience is much enhanced. What price do we put on that?

[KiOgon]

When I was gigging back in the late 60s - 70s I made the most of what I had, saved up my pay from weekday paper round, Sat. butchers round & Sun. papers until I had enough for my dream of a Ricky!

It turned out my illusions were shattered when I tried playing one & then a lot more but I ended up spending my hard earned on a brand new Gherson Jazz bass - because it played better & sounded better than anything else on sale in the whole of THAT LONDON at the time + I got my dream amp, Hiwatt 100 & a fantastic Orange 2x18 cab. We were playing pubs, clubs & youth centres, but I felt great, it fitted in with the rest of the band, we were loud & heavy & I knew many other bass players who were green with envy. That was a very long time ago

Now I play for fun, never dreamed of owning a Fender back then, now I have too many! No excuse required, I like them

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441299278' post='2857753']
It was a very enjoyable evening, and I agree, the student performances were very personal and even moving at points. I was brought on a journey by some.

Kashmir, although great to listen to, really didn't have the same emotional impact.
[/quote]

RE: the gig that started this whole thread.

It was of note that the tutors and students were using fairly basic gear. The backline comprised a Blues Deluxe and a Tiny Terror (IIRC) while that bloke out of the Kaiser Chiefs was going through one of those teeny £350 Ampeg Micro Stacks. The vocals and keys went through a titchy pair of speakers on tripods.

In a 200-300 capacity room with raked auditorium seating the sound from such an unpromisingly 'basic' set up was remarkably huge and clear.
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Edited September 3, 2015 by skankdelvar

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1441300304' post='2857764']
RE: the gig that started this whole thread.

It was of note that the tutors and students were using fairly basic gear. The backline comprised a Blues Deluxe and a Tiny Terror (IIRC) while that bloke out of the Kaiser Chiefs was going through one of those teeny £350 Ampeg Micro Stacks. The vocals and keys went through a titchy pair of speakers on tripods.

In a 200-300 capacity room with raked auditorium seating the sound from such an unpromisingly 'basic' set up was remarkably huge and clear.
[color=#ffffff].[/color]
[/quote]

I think the tiny terror you're thinking of was actually a tweed combo. I remember seeing one of those. That Ampeg micro stack was fantastic (and very portable!). And as you say, the sound was great. Many nights I have endured mushy guitar and vocals through a PA set up in the corner of a bar. I don't think it's the gear that got the sound so good, but the sound guy we had on the night.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='KiOgon' timestamp='1441300203' post='2857762']
When I was gigging back in the late 60s - 70s I made the most of what I had, saved up my pay from weekday paper round, Sat. butchers round & Sun. papers until I had enough for my dream of a Ricky!

It turned out my illusions were shattered when I tried playing one & then a lot more but I ended up spending my hard earned on a brand new Gherson Jazz bass - because it played better & sounded better than anything else on sale in the whole of THAT LONDON at the time
[/quote]

You still have a Gherson Jazz Bass. Same one?

[KiOgon]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1441301013' post='2857773']
You still have a Gherson Jazz Bass. Same one?
[/quote]Well it could be - but most likely not, regretably I can't remember what happened to mine - blame it on the sex drugs booze & rock & roll if you like I found one identical to my old one on ebay a long time ago & snapped it up. Still a very nice bass, quality parts & lovely slim neck I've been told they were only made in 73, that's when I bought my original, but not sure if that's true.

Here you go; http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v48/kjon51/Gherson%20Jazz%20Bass/bf973926-a32d-4f6d-b375-3ee5e88ac609_zps78938b51.jpg

Edited September 3, 2015 by KiOgon

[Cameronj279]

I haven't read the comments here as I can't find the arsedness but I'll respond to the original post.

I have what I would consider to be rather high end equipment (everything except a cab) and I don't think for a second that anybody but me cares what I'm using -despite being asked at almost every gig I play-. My reason for having them is just that I want to basically. I get more enjoyment from playing my ACG or Dingwall than I get from other basses but nobody really cares about that!

I have a lot of the gear and will be the first one to admit that I have no idea! I'm not a particularly great player in any aspect but I like it

[Roger2611]

I used to work for a Rolls Royce dealership, when I started there I simply couldn't understand how someone could see / justify spending £250.000 on a car, quite simply they are not 100 times better than the bread and butter Ford Sierra that everyone was driving at the time, the sales manager explained it to me as follows:

To a buyer of a Rolls Royce at £250.000 it has the same or less impact on their finances as you or I spending £2000 on a car, simply put they can afford it, to many of them it wasn't a status symbol it was the best that money could buy, it made them happy......

To me that does make sense....I have the ability to try and own a good few basses and actually find one I like and sell on those that I don't like, I currently own a very expensive Warwick which I really like but choose to gig with a pink Mike Dirnt Squier Precision (with Fender decal!) why...because I am using the bass I like best, I could, and have gigged the Warwick and did actually get comments on the bass, yet it was with the Squier that I got favourable comments on the sound I produced.

[mrtcat]

I like to be middle of the road gear wise. A yamaha trb5 from the 90s I picked up for £450 on eBay, a genz stm head and homebuilt cabs. That's more than enough for me. I totally understand people who enjoy having nice gear. It goes for most pastimes - look at golf with people hacking up courses with £2k worth of clubs or sunday morning footballers in £180 boots. If you can afford it and want it then why not. I also totally understand the other side of the argument too. Our guitarist just played to over 100,000 people over the course of two weekends as he was in the house band for both rewind north and south. He used a fender all transistor 2x12 amp he picked up off ebay for £80 and a Mexican strat with about £200 worth of pedals. He sounded awesome.
There's no right or wrong just what works for the individual.

[neepheid]

Gear snobbery one day, reverse snobbery the next.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441295565' post='2857706']
I'm not saying that expensive instruments don't offer something more than cheap instruments, or that they don't have their place. I'm just questioning why some feel they need them for the local pubs and weddings band that many are in?
[/quote]

Well I dont buy a bass to suite a venue, it seems a like a bit of a strange thought process to go through: "well I really like this bass but Id better get something a bit more crap because of where I might end up playing it".

Also the cost of an "expensive" bass is peanuts when considering the lifetime ownership cost, my status cost me about £1400 20 years ago which works out as about £1.30 a week, I sometimes dream of the high life I might be living had only spent say £400 - imagine what I could have done with that extra 90 pence a week ....

Edited September 3, 2015 by bassman7755

[ubit]

I myself, use American Fenders,Sandberg, Gibson, Ampeg amp and a Barefaced speaker cab. Partly because I'm in a position to afford good gear now after scrimping for years, and partly because I know it's better than cheap gear. Further to my earlier post, we have a very good PA which gives an accurate FOH sound when cranked. I also agree with the people who say, it's good to play with decent gear. It makes you feel and play better. Why would you deliberately use cheaper gear because you didn't want to be a snob?

[ubit]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1441299485' post='2857754']
I bought the most expensive bass i could afford when i started, because i know that i will keep learning to play to the best of my ability. If i had spent £300 on all the gear, i would give up fairly easily, compared to if i lay out a large chunk of cash on any thing that takes time to learn. Probably not the best bass for the money, but i like it, and that is all that counts for me.
As for business sense on spending £2000 on a guitar. It is something you will be playing in your spare time and takes up a lot of your leisure time, so why not treat yourself to the best you can afford
[/quote]

THIS!

Who buys cheap gear because you are "probably" only going to play dives? What happens if you suddenly get a booking for a better joint ? I like to have the best I can get because I have earned it by working my way through all these dives and plenty nice places along the way. I certainly didn't select cheaper bass for cheaper venue.

[UglyDog]

My gear choices are precisely that -- mine. My money, my damn business. I haven't endangered my mortgage or taken food from the mouths of my kids by spending it, so I fail to see any sort of problem.
If anyone (other than Mrs Dog) demanded that I 'justify' my decisions or the amounts I have spent, my reply would probably be along the lines of 'sex and travel'.

[jonsmith]

Some of my gear is quite expensive, one or two items are really quite cheap. As a few people have said, the audience does benefit from the expensive gear as most of it feels better and sounds better to me, which means I enjoy playing more and give a better performance. In my opinion it does also sound better and it becomes easier to give the audience a more pleasing overall sound (I think they do notice this, even if they don't always know why). Although I play better with a decent sound, I can cope with poorer sound, but I have worked with a few guitarists who went to pieces if their sound wasn't right - good players besides that too.

Having said that, we live in a time where budget equipment is available at not massively higher prices than when I was starting out over 30 years ago. The difference now is that most of this budget equipment plays and sounds passable now - perhaps with a few rough edges - compared to back then when most of it was painful to play and often to listen to as well. When asked to go to the US last year I picked up a Squier P as I was worried that the airline might crush one of my 'decent' basses. As it turned out, this cheap bass was easy to play and sounded just fine for the music I was playing and by the end of the trip I was thinking I'd be upset if it got damaged too. It wouldn't be the first bass I'd pick up, but it still sees regular use at multi-band events with crowded stages where I don't want to risk something more expensive.

I don't think there's any such thing as an unjustifiable purchase - if I can hear or feel something that attracts me to that instrument then I'm afraid that's all that matters and the purchase is entirely justified. Business sense doesn't enter into it, otherwise I wouldn't even be in a band in the first place.

Edited September 3, 2015 by jonsmith

[MiltyG565]

I find this "I sound great, therefore I play better" attitude quite hard to understand. I consider sounding great to be relative to the people you are playing with, not relative to other basses. When musicians are on the same wavelength with each other, they sound great. It wouldn't matter if you had the most expensive bass in the world or not, a great jam is a great jam.

I've never seen something that sounded musically pleasing and thought "It would be better if he stuck on a set of flat wounds, but never mind", and I doubt many people have. So why do we get so precious about what we use? I just feel that it's much more fleeting and in the moment than that, and generally, tonality matters very little to most.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441313907' post='2857922']
I've never seen something that sounded musically pleasing and thought "It would be better if he stuck on a set of flat wounds, but never mind", and I doubt many people have.
[/quote]

I don't know, I can think of a few times I've seen great players and thought things like "Great, but wouldn't it be nice if he lost that awful scratchy piezo sound", "Aargh, why did it have to be a DX7" and things of that nature. Perhaps I'm unusual in that respect.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Beer of the Bass

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441313907' post='2857922']
So why do we get so precious about what we use?
[/quote]

If we didn't, we wouldn't have anything to talk about.

Every thread would be about three posts long; forum traffic would dry up; Ped wouldn't have any money to buy nice cakey things from Greggs and there would be lamentations a-go-go.

That - my good friend - is why.

[timmo]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441313907' post='2857922']
I find this "I sound great, therefore I play better" attitude quite hard to understand.
[/quote] Most people wouldn`t know if you are playing a Jazz or Precision bass, so why not just have a Squire Jazz and be done with it, as no one would ever need anything different. I can totally get why people like spending thousands on a bass. If it makes them happy then why not. That is what making music is all about. It makes absolutely no difference if you get it or not, if you are happy playing a Squire. Nothing wrong with that either.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1441314369' post='2857932']
If we didn't, we wouldn't have anything to talk about.

Every thread would be about three posts long; forum traffic would dry up; Ped wouldn't have any money to buy nice cakey things from Greggs and there would be lamentations a-go-go.

That - my good friend - is why.
[/quote]

So you mean it's all a conspiracy? BassChat is part of the new world order? Jet fuel can't melt steel beams? The government's testing speed-of-light drones for bombing completely undetected? The Chuckle Brothers are part of a secret government programme to teach kids how to communicate effectively when moving things?

Is nothing sacred!?

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441317381' post='2857976']
So you mean it's all a conspiracy? BassChat is part of the new world order?
[/quote]

Quite so. With Kiwi as the Emperor Palpitate.


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