All the gear and no-eye-dear

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='amnesia' timestamp='1441367741' post='2858302']
Thats me.

I don't need the gear I have. I could get the sound from much less expensive equipment I'm sure.

I am an unashamed brand-snob. Absolutely no doubt. Not that I look down on people who don't have the most expensive kit - I don't - , I just choose to set my budget a little higher and I'm lucky enough to be able to do that and still pay the bills.

Can I justify what I have spent on equipment? In a business sense? No. Not even slightly! But I don't have to...which is quite nice.
[/quote]

this is me too. i can and have used cheap gear in the past and its worked just as well.
but i simply like to spend the money i earn on my gear. i work hard during the week so as long as my bills are paid im happy to throw money at my enjoyment activities such as music and photography.
i would never criticise people for using cheap gear, im just fortunate enough to be able to afford good stuff so i do it while i can.

[gadgie]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][color="#000000"] [/color][/size][/font]
[color=#222222]Hmmm to OP. Your title for the thread 'All the gear and no-eye-dear' leads me to believe you are trying to refer to people having all the fancy kit, but no idea what to do with it, or how to play it….or are you trying to say they have all the gear but have no idea what it’s worth?[/color]

[color=#222222]Yet here we are and the thread has got in to a 'I can afford this or that so I'm going to get it'. This in fact is okay in my book…why not? Like many on here I have high end kit and low end kit and stuff in between. I think people should buy what they want if they have the ’spare’ cash to do so. Not so, if it means the kids have holes in their shoes etc.[/color]

[color=#222222]Why do people buy expensive art? Is it because they have no idea what expensive art is?[/color]

[color=#222222]What I will say though and I’ve said it many times before. In a full band situation it really does not matter if you are playing a Squire or a Fender CS, and Epi or a Gibson. The crowd will not know the difference 99% of the time…if not a higher%. Which brings me to this. If the crowd don’t know, but you do and it makes you feel good the it’s worth it.[/color]

[Toasted]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441286405' post='2857556']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSiv45KEFGY[/media]
[/quote]

Recording his video with a £1000 compressor.

[4-string-thing]

Yes, his £1000 compressor in his [u]professional [/u]recording studio....

[TimR]

To me the phrase "all the gear and no idea" refers to someone who has just spend a lot of money on expensive professional equipment but has no idea how to operate it.

I'm not sure it applies to someone who upgrades their gear in the mistaken belief that better gear makes up for lack of talent.

'Eye' usually refers to how you see something, a point of view. As in "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

Edited September 4, 2015 by TimR

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1441382817' post='2858534']
To me the phrase "all the gear and no idea" refers to someone who has just spend a lot of money on expensive professional equipment but has no idea how to operate it.

I'm not sure it applies to someone who upgrades their gear in the mistaken belief that better gear makes up for lack of talent.

'Eye' usually refers to how you see something, a point of view. As in "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".
[/quote]

It was actually me just trying to be funny, but I've made a horrible, terrible mistake. It should be "no-eye deer", not "no-eye-dear". From the popular children's joke "What do you call a Deer with no eyes? No-eye Deer".

Furthermore, it was more of a tongue-in-cheek clickbait title rather than a comment on any individual or group (least of all Basschat, which is rammed to the gills with consummate professionals).

[TimR]

You shouldn't have admitted that. You could have let the mystery run for at least 12 pages first.

Bit like one of those songs where everyone reads hidden meanings into it and the artist just says; "No, really. It's just a song about a plank of wood floating down a river." And everyone nods wisely.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1441395778' post='2858676']
You shouldn't have admitted that. You could have let the mystery run for at least 12 pages first.

Bit like one of those songs where everyone reads hidden meanings into it and the artist just says; "No, really. It's just a song about a plank of wood floating down a river." And everyone nods wisely.
[/quote]

Like Money For Nothing, which is literally a conversation Mark Knopfler overhead in an electronics shop in the USA, where a couple of the delivery men were commenting on the music being played on MTV.

[TimR]

Well. That's what he says anyway.

[skankdelvar]

The Canadians banned that song from public radio for being racist. IIRC.

Possibly.

Go Canada!

[neilp]

Interesting. Earlier in the thread someone mentioned the concept of a "better" bass sound. Better in whose ears? This is purely my view, but if the audience isn't listening to the band -as an ensemble - then something is wrong.

I'm a much better classical double bass player than I am an electric bass player. I like to believe I've got a decent feel, and I can work a groove pretty well and love the feeling of being locked-in with the rest of the rhythm section, but my technique has limitations that I've learned to respect. As a classical player my technical limits are way higher. In spite of this, my double bass would be regarded - is regarded - as a "budget" instrument. All things are relative, it's worth more than my Wal fretless. Why do I keep it? It sounds great - to me - I find it easy to play and I love it, despite its "characterful" looks! Why do I keep the Wal, which according to some on here is way "better" than I need or deserve? It sounds great, it's easy to play and I love it! Same with the SB1000 and the "cheap" Cort. None of them have a financial value to me, because I won't sell them. I've had them all long enough that they're part of who I am as a musician, for whatever that's worth! No apologies for my choices. Maybe I "should" sell the DB and the Wal and invest in a "better" DB. It has been suggested, but it'll never happen. It'd be like selling my soul. It's not "gear" to me, they're musical instruments. Again, only my opinion and not in any way intended to offend anyone, but I think that attitude makes me a better musician than I would otherwise be. I try to focus on what and how I play, not what I need to buy next to get "the tone".

[TrevorR]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441286405' post='2857556']
...And I've long since held the view that, actually, nobody cares. The majority of an audience when you play live won't care. Other musicians might, but are you writing music to please other musicians?

I had the experience recently of playing with many fantastic musicians, who played on various qualities of instruments. The instruments were completely sidelined by sheer raw talent and songwriting/performing ability. Nobody was interested in talking about which year Fender stopped making their switches out of bakelite, or what bass is best for metal. Everyone got stuck into the music without pretentiousness.

So what compels us to still talk about what instruments and backline we need to play the crow & fiddle on a gloomy Saturday evening? Does it make any difference to the punters? What if you spent £500 on a bass, and £500 on an amp - Wouldn't that be good enough?

[/quote]

I've been following this thread with interest. Going back to the original questions posed I think there is a basic flaw in the premise, which seems to be that expensive gear is bought to impress the audience. I don't think anyone has ever done that. Or that different venues "deserve" different levels of gear. Of course, at any gig what really matters is the performance and how much it entertains the audience. Irrespective of the gear used. Of course.

There are numerous reasons why people might use expensive gear. They range from "Because I can" to "Because it feels right and sounds right TO ME and that enhances my confidence which enhances my playing/feel/performance which enhances the audience's enjoyment". All valid in their own way. No value judgement or presumption of others noticing what the gear is involved.

In my case at gigs I play two basses considered boutique and stupidly expensive now. I've played them in pubs, at clubs, at church, on festival tent stages, at wedding receptions, in a prison and corporate events. I played them at all those venues irrespective, for the simple reason that they are my basses and that's what I play. At no stage was an assessment of what the audience expected or warranted involved. Oh, and when one was temporarily retired while needing some TLC I played a Frankenjazz project bass instead. Total cost about £250. But I t felt and sounded great to me.

So why do I play Wal basses as my main instruments? One reason. In 1987 I went to a Marshall amp demo at the London Guitar Show and fell in love with the look and sound of the basses being used for the demo. I thought, "Ooooh, I'd love to have one of those one day. I'd never be able to justify it, though." I then discovered that a lot of my favourite artists also used the brand which further cemented the desire. Fast forward 5 years and 15 years respectively and I managed to pick them up second hand for about £500 each - which at the time I could justify. And I love them. Ironically, at the current new prices I know I couldn't justify the cost for myself. I'd be very hard pushed to justify the current second hand prices for myself either. Others can, fair enough.

Same with my Markbass amp. It was in my price range and fitted my needs from back line at larger gigs to cocktail bar acoustic gigs.

That set up makes me feel good and boosts my playing confidence. That helps me perform better, that makes the band perform better and that means the audience gets a better show. Which is what they care about. Incidentally, I started on a Laney combo and later traded up to a Trace Elliott. When the Trace eventually died I got an Ashown rig, largely because a friend's sounded amazing to me. However, I really struggled to feel at home with mine and after about a year I sold it and bought the Markbass, which I love. But it was the sound (and portability) that won it for me. Not the kudos or price tag.

The metal guy video is interesting. But it boils down into three simple statements...

- if you don't have super cool gear, don't sweat it and don't feel inferior because of it
- if you have super cool gear don't be an A-hole and prima donna about it
- concentrate on doing a good show, that's what the punters care about.

Fair enough!

Edited September 4, 2015 by TrevorR

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1441402013' post='2858726']
I've been following this thread with interest. Going back to the original questions posed I think there is a basic flaw in the premise, which seems to be that expensive gear is bought to impress the audience. I don't think anyone has ever done that. Or that different venues "deserve" different levels of gear. Of course, at any gig what really matters is the performance and how much it entertains the audience. Irrespective of the gear used. Of course.
[/quote]

I think you've almost got what I was driving at, but not quite. It isn't that I think that expensive gear is bought to impress an audience for local pub covers bands, more that it simply doesn't impress the audience, because it's only musicians who get so into the detail of such a thing, and that's just another reason as to why it's not required to have flashy gear. And it's not even that I'm saying that certain venues require certain gear, as somebody suggested earlier - utter hogwash. Simply that really expensive and boutique instruments simply aren't required in that setting.

[chris_b]

We're telling you but you're not listening!!

[neilp]

Whatever you require to do your thing is what's required. Simples. Setting is utterly irrelevant

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441403715' post='2858739']
Simply that really expensive and boutique instruments simply aren't required in that setting.
[/quote]
well if this is the opinion you hold, thats the crux of this argument... thread done
put simply, some of us use expensive gear in sh*t venues for a number of reasons, the main one being because we can... you feel that it doesn't matter cos no one cares anyway... 2 opposing opinions that will go on and on and on in this thread until you either accept that we are right or stand by view valuing our opinions on the matter and move on

Edited September 4, 2015 by RockfordStone

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1441400628' post='2858722']
The Canadians banned that song from public radio for being racist. IIRC.

Possibly.

Go Canada!
[/quote]

Hmm, the bongos/chimpanzee bit? I know the BBC had issues over the word "faggot" more recently, both in this and in Fairytale of New York which they probably received more complaints about the censorship of than they ever had about the word itself.

[TrevorR]

The [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441403715' post='2858739']
Simply that really expensive and boutique instruments simply aren't required in that setting.
[/quote]

I get everything you say and pretty much agree right up to this statement... For me what is required any time I play irrespective of venue or setting is an instrument I feel at one with and which I love playing. It just so happens that for me that is a bass that is hand built and would cost four and a half grand to replace new. Or it could also be a bass that cost me all of £250 to build... The cost/value/kudos isn't the point. How I feel playing it (and that is down to how the sound and feel fits me) is the point.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1441405112' post='2858752']
We're telling you but you're not listening!!
[/quote]

I'm under no obligation to accept your ideas as correct, pal.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1441407610' post='2858768']
The

I get everything you say and pretty much agree right up to this statement... For me what is required any time I play irrespective of venue or setting is an instrument I feel at one with and which I love playing. It just so happens that for me that is a bass that is hand built and would cost four and a half grand to replace new. Or it could also be a bass that cost me all of £250 to build... The cost/value/kudos isn't the point. How I feel playing it (and that is down to how the sound and feel fits me) is the point.
[/quote]

Sure, but then there are people who bring two and three basses to a gig in the pub so they get "the right tone" for a few songs in the setlist, which I find a bit perplexing.

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441407923' post='2858773']
Sure, but then there are people who bring two and three basses to a gig in the pub so they get "the right tone" for a few songs in the setlist, which I find a bit perplexing.
[/quote]

I bring two just in case one breaks. It never has but it feels safer to me. My basses all sound a bit different (although less so at pub gig volumes) but basically I pick which bass I take by what I want to play.

Think I will take the ibanez tomorrow.

[Subbeh]

[quote name='neilp' timestamp='1441405436' post='2858753']
Whatever you require to do your thing is what's required. Simples. Setting is utterly irrelevant
[/quote]

Amen! I'm puzzled as to how this thread has come this far, if the player and their audience are happy who gives a flying ^&!" what anyone else thinks is required

[tauzero]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441403715' post='2858739']
And it's not even that I'm saying that certain venues require certain gear, as somebody suggested earlier - utter hogwash. Simply that really expensive and boutique instruments simply aren't required in that setting.
[/quote]

Mine are, because I want to play them. Are you sure you watched that video?

[chris_b]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441407662' post='2858769']
I'm under no obligation to accept your ideas as correct, pal.
[/quote]

Pal? Oooo!!

You don't have to but you aren't even accepting that others can have valid opinions that are right for them even though they are different from yours.

I play the Dog and Duck and the Albert Hall with the same approach and attitude. I give my best, always use the best gear I can find and afford and sound as good as I can. If the audience doesn't appreciate my efforts then I know the band will. So might the guy who's standing at the bar and looking for his next bass player. You don't play for the people who aren't interested in listening, you play for the people who are. I actually picked up a great gig when a guy saw me playing my guts out with a crappy band in a crappy bar in central London.

That you can't accept or understand that view doesn't matter but to repeatedly tell me that my view makes no sense. . . is just underlining an issue you have.

[jonsmith]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1441407923' post='2858773']
Sure, but then there are people who bring two and three basses to a gig in the pub so they get "the right tone" for a few songs in the setlist, which I find a bit perplexing.
[/quote]

Again, this might not matter to most of the audience, but if it matters to the performer then why should some attention to detail be criticised? I quite often take two basses to a gig. I mainly do this in case I break a string (I'm sometimes a bit heavy handed), but often I have a clear vision of how my bass should sound for a particular song, so I'll take advantage of the fact I have a choice and pick the most appropriate one. The audience might not know why I have chosen that instrument, but they might appreciate that the song sounds good. I'd be a bit miffed if a keyboard player insisted on playing a piano part on a Hammond organ, or a guitarist played an acoustic part on a Les Paul through a cranked Marshall stack. It's about having the correct tools for the job and if I do, why shouldn't I use them?

Last year, I was playing in a band that one minute was playing a Stranglers song, the next a reggae track. In both cases, the bass was quite dominant. Some choice of tone was essential to pulling that off correctly and I'd argue that all but the most musically ignorant audience members would have noticed if I had swapped the tones around.

Edited September 5, 2015 by jonsmith