4-string-thing Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 The singer may well be "The Star" but the overall sound should be balanced.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Low End Bee Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 [quote name='4-string-thing' timestamp='1441632086' post='2860387'] Sounds like someone needs a wireless kit,... [/quote] As a cheapskate I always bring a 30 foot lead for this sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 [quote name='4-string-thing' timestamp='1441639018' post='2860468'] The singer may well be "The Star" but the overall sound should be balanced.... [/quote] ...like a huge game of human Jenga where the drums and bass are those two blocks on the bottom you can't move and the guitar and singer are perched on the top ready to tumble down if anything happens to the two at the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 [quote name='4-string-thing' timestamp='1441639018' post='2860468'] The singer may well be "The Star" but the overall sound should be balanced.... [/quote]agreed, but the vocals need to sit on top of the mix, that's what I meant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1441640910' post='2860500'] agreed, but the vocals need to sit on top of the mix, that's what I meant [/quote] Yep spot on, for a good mix start with vox and build everything else up underneath them to the point where you can still understand what the singer is singing. Mostly with bands you can only hear the singer, but stand no chance of understanding what they`re singing - wrong imv, that means they`re in the mix, rather than on top. Vox sell the band, and are the stars. It`s a tough life but we have to accept it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deedee Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Interesting thread. My advice, buy an old skool Trace SMX head, press pre-shape 2 and Bingo! You'll cut through any mix 😜 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 [quote name='Firey Jack' timestamp='1441542300' post='2859630'] Please help - I play in a 5 piece covers band with 2 guitars, vox, drums. I love playing in the band but there is a huge problem developing for me sound wise - the singer is forever asking me to turn down, even when I can already hardly hear myself over the drums and guitars and I'm considering turning up! This really pisses me off - if I can't hear myself I find I naturally work my right hand harder to try and be heard - this morning after last night's gig my fingers are red raw. I'm seriously considering quitting because there's no pleasure in it for me getting on stage playing a bass and hardly hearing the result. I have lots of respect for the singers views - he's experienced and his views on sound are often really insightful - this makes it worse. But I do think he's over reacting a bit maybe because a couple of times when the guitarists have got their sound wrong, he's not been able to pick up the note and ended up singing off key, because he can only hear bass and drums. As we all know, the guitars cut through everything and they've recently reigned themselves in a bit - this could be contributing to the problem. Still hear them loud and clear tho! I'm not sure, but I think I just need to get my sound right I think so it cuts through without sounding too boomy maybe? I dunno. I have a Jazz bass with a TC RH450 driving the 2 x 8" speakers in a TC BG250 208 and a 1 x 15" Trace Elliot cab. I'm changing this for a TC RS112 asap. I've been dicking about with the RH450 settings for weeks but with no real joy. I boost the bass and cut the highs a small amount, low gain and tubetone, middling amount of compression but I'm pretty clueless about that tbh. ANY experience shared, advice guidance etc VERY gratefully received. #Thanks [/quote] Doesn't make any sense, I'm afarid... you are asked to turn down to the point you can't hear and this makes you play harder to be heard..so what does that achieve... you've crept up to the same volume ..?? Gtrs turn down and he can't pitch because all he can hear is bass and drums..?? Does this guy know mwhat he wants...or can hear. Sounds like shot hearing to me. Either work it out so you are all happy and understand what the end goal is soundwise or move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1441617850' post='2860188'] I'd be inclined to ask why it is your singer is asking you to turn down. If you are so quiet that you cannot hear yourself while the drums are playing, maybe its that your vocal monitoring for the singer is not adequate? [/quote] Yeah,I think this should be worked out between you and the singer. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbass Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Hi i play in a function band and a heavy rock band....what a contrast! I use a jazz bass through a RH450 and also have used several speaker configurations including a trace elliot 1015c cab. I have had no problems with the amp or my bass however I did find the 15 inch cab a bit boomy and sometimes muddy depending on the venue. I now use (and have done for the past 4 years or more) the RH450 with the RS210 which made a massive difference IMO. For a bit more attack on my sound i use a Trace Elliot 2X10 which sounds more responsive than the RS210 which sounds mellow compared. If i play a large venue i will use both these cabs and i find i can control the bottom end and the top end sounds really sweet. On the RH450 i have the settings set about 2/3s across the board and the same when i apply the shift button,knocking a bit of top end off as i find my spaekers give me that anyway. I do use a bit of compression as i like that phat tight sound. Any alterations to my sound is made via my bass and i rarely have to alter the amp settings. The jazz i use is active which can help to give me a distintive tone if i need to cut through. I never use my 15inch Trace cab which is a shame as its mint but a little to much. Regarding your band situation have you gone out the front when doing a sound check to tweek your sound? also you could angle the cab away from the singer but if you cant hear yourself as your so quiet you may have a battle on you hands with the frontman. Hope this helps,good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firey Jack Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 Wow, thanks everyone for all the advice. I use a 30 ft lead so I can go out front.and check. I do have a mish mash of gear that doesn't seem to suit the rh450 - the 2 x8 is the cab from a the Tc bg250 208 combo with the amp disabled if that makes sense. What I'd like is an RS212 but costs mean that's gonna come as 2 x RS112s over time - at Thomann amazingly it's cheaper to buy 2 x 112s than 1 x 212! I like the idea of using a single cab so I may just use the 115 if I can elevate it somehow. My idea of the 2x8" and 1 x15 together was some half arsed notion that different driver sizes will give me a nice balance of sound sort of but that doesn't seem to be working for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firey Jack Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 I think the singer is paranoid that an overpowering bass will mean he'll struggle to sing in tune with the guitars - this has happened a couple of times, but I argue that's because the guitar levels and EQ were at fault, nowt to do with the bass. Both guitars have turned down recently, cos they were bloody loud, so he's even more paranoid now - I might suggest the guitars need to go up a tad, but I'll try and make sure their EQ, as has been suggested, stays off my frequency territory! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 I tried to mix a trace 15" with a Warwick 210 with a horn. Strangely it sounded quieter. I ditched the 15" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1441558304' post='2859808'] Only other thing I'll add to the excellent advice from Discreet and Lurksalot is to be ready to accept a tone that doesn't sound great up close, but try to use a very long lead to hear it from where the audience will be. What may sound like a tone lacking in bottom end up close can sound great further away. [/quote] +1 Having used a variety of 15 loaded cabs over the years I've noticed that older/cheaper 15s are usually very poor at producing a sound that allows your ears to resolve what notes you are playing even at high volume levels so I'd definitely ditch the trace. If you do get the new TC cabinet I would use it on its own angled upwards as others have suggested then you should get a more coherent sound and hopefully be able to dear what you are playing better. For angling the cab try something like this [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stagg-Foldable-Monitor-Floor-Stand/dp/B000YL952E"]http://www.amazon.co...d/dp/B000YL952E[/url] Edited September 8, 2015 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubit Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I have only found this thread and can't add anything that hasn't been said already apart from agreeing that pushing mids is the way to cut through. The sound you get in your bedroom or wherever you practise, might sound thin, but in a band situation, it will cut through without being oppressive. Also , have a word with the vocalist and tell him that the band is a sum of parts and each is important, so telling someone to turn down so they can't hear them self, is not conducive to a pleasant audio experience ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gapiro Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 [quote name='Firey Jack' timestamp='1441575521' post='2860040'] Thanks Rushbo and Mykesbass - that's kinda my experience as well - the worst gigs for me are when it sounds plenty loud out front but I can hardly hear anything on stage - really frustrating and baffles me a lot of the time - seems to be very venue dependent. I'm not too worried about the tone I hear, but for me to play well I need to hear as much articulation, if that's the right term, as possible. Last night, cos of all the dicking about I did it sounded really muddy and indistinct - I suspect it was plenty loud out front tho but [/quote] Unfortunately you have to accept that what sounds best for the punters is more important that what sounds good for you sometimes [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1441617850' post='2860188'] I'd be inclined to ask why it is your singer is asking you to turn down. If you are so quiet that you cannot hear yourself while the drums are playing, maybe its that your vocal monitoring for the singer is not adequate? [/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1441542534' post='2859633'] Don't boost the bass. If anything, boost the mids. Boosted bass will up your volume but won't give you any definition. Try starting from scratch - turn off all FX, compressors and the like, set your EQ to as flat as you can get it, then turn up the gain to where you're getting a good signal without distortion - then set your overall level with your master. If your singer still complains, turn down the master slightly but boost your mids. It also helps to get at least one of your cabs up to head height so you can hear what you're doing without being too loud. Or possibly use a stand. I use an angled stand to point my cab to my ears, but I only use the one cab. Check the guitarists EQ too - they need to cut their bottom end - if they're encroaching on your frequency territory it's going to be a problem. Down around 80-120Hz or so you only really want to hear the bass and the kick and not much else. [/quote] Right there is pretty much the complete guide to good bass tone live Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 [quote name='ubit' timestamp='1441692197' post='2860836'] Also , have a word with the vocalist and tell him that the band is a sum of parts and each is important, so telling someone to turn down so they can't hear them self, is not conducive to a pleasant audio experience ! [/quote] Agreed, although that's probably a discussion for the whole band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firey Jack Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1441690274' post='2860830'] +1 Having used a variety of 15 loaded cabs over the years I've noticed that older/cheaper 15s are usually very poor at producing a sound that allows your ears to resolve what notes you are playing even at high volume levels so I'd definitely ditch the trace. If you do get the new TC cabinet I would use it on its own angled upwards as others have suggested then you should get a more coherent sound and hopefully be able to dear what you are playing better. For angling the cab try something like this [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stagg-Foldable-Monitor-Floor-Stand/dp/B000YL952E"]http://www.amazon.co...d/dp/B000YL952E[/url] [/quote] Just getting the hang of this quote thingy Thanks for this - I tend to agree - my gut tells me the 15" is a big part of the problem, but I'm not sure. I have another option - I have a 180W Ashdown 12" combo - might use this as a cab instead of the 15" Trace. I could still stack it on top of the 15" tho, to increase the height - that will really wind the singer up Edited September 8, 2015 by Firey Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Embrace the mid range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firey Jack Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 [quote name='gapiro' timestamp='1441692882' post='2860837'] Unfortunately you have to accept that what sounds best for the punters is more important that what sounds good for you sometimes [/quote] Thanks - I do accept this (I think) that's why I go out front at sound check to reassure myself that the muffled, indistinct and almost inaudible muddy sh*te that I'm hearing on stage sounds better out front - which it usually does to be fair - whilst I can bear this in mind on stage, I still don't enjoying playing under these conditions, I ain't really in it for the money and so what's the chuffing point? - apart form getting out the house Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 As has been said, a few times now. Sticking the 12" on top of the 15", without plugging in the 15" will solve your problem immediately. Mainly because you'll then be hearing what the singer can hear. Raise the cab and turn down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjim Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 The problem here might not be you at all. If this helps try this: get a rehearsal but ask your drummer (nicley at first. hit later ) to play with..................hot rods............the whole rehearsal. Also ask the guitarists as a one off experiment you are allowed to set their volumes and no matter how much they whince and cry about it the deal is......one whole rehearsal you set the volume. the singer is the ONLY person that goes into the pa ( plus if its there) monitors. Providing your rehearsal room isnt a concrete box and has somne carpet in it you should find every one can now hear whats going on. I know its probably very patronising to them and possibly even to you but try it. Whole band sign an agreement that for at least one 2-3 hour rehearsal this is the deal. No pulling discontented faces at you or sarcasticly smiling or any of that immature bullshit .End of. If it all sounds much better cause you can all actually hear whats going on then maybe they could take this one step up and try a gig without every thing on 11. as already mentioned here loud rock guitars eat bass so unless your amp is on the other side of the drum kit away from them and you have some room to spread out its game over before you start. Volume war = noisy mess so your singer can forget about hearing himself if this is the case. Your not playing a stadium so you dont need a stadium volume. if they dont want to know, they are doomed to never getting it together and will always be looking for excuses. start looking for another band and as soon as it looks good jump ship. IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firey Jack Posted September 16, 2015 Author Share Posted September 16, 2015 Just wanna say a big thanks to all contributors to this topic for all your help and support - took all your advice on board - ditched the Trace 15" and replaced with a 12", raised everything up, cut the bass, boosted the mids, checked the guitarsists EQ and got them to cut their lows. Worked like a charm - gig on Sat was just fantastic - clear as a bell, felt really great - I play so much better when I can clearly hear what i'm playing! NO COMPLAINTS from the singer - couldn't chuffing well believe it - was waiting for him to say something but when he didn't after about 10 songs I eventually came round to the idea that I might sound OK to him There's still a part of me that wants the floor to vibrate more, but I know I need to let that sh*t go... Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Excellent. The forum wins again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Good news. What 12 did you go for? Are you still using the 2x8? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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