Classic gear, how good was it really.

[Phil Starr]

Just been watching The Old Grey Whistle Test, sounds of the seventies on Yesterday and I was struck by just how poor the bass sound is in almost every song. All using classic gear which we now rave about. Valve amps and stacks of large speakers. The possible exception is the Ampeg Fridge users that sounded OK at least some of the time. Now something could be lost in translation of course but these were top bands, using then state of the art gear and recorded by the BBC. Almost nothing I heard would pass muster in a pub covers band today in terms of sound quality.

In my memory it all sounded fantastic but the reality was that the bass in particular sounded awful in early seventies live recordings. So, was the gear really that good?

[discreet]

Live bass often sounded crap. The advent of The Fridge around 1969 helped a lot. Recorded bass sounded great though and still does, in my opinion. There were a lot of amps of variable quality about it's true, but the very best were incredibly expensive at the time. Still are.

Edited September 13, 2015 by discreet

[Beer of the Bass]

I have a hunch that any deficiencies were down to the cabs more than the amps, as a decent old valve 100 watter through modern speakers is a joy to play through IMO.

[The Badderer]

I would be inclined to say that it's probably more likely an issue with how the sound was translated onto TV or recorded by the BBC in those days. There have been massive improvements in how to record and copy across audio into video formats. I'm sure modern gear is superior in many ways. Paying over the odds for old vintage amps/cabs is different from paying a lot for vintage Fenders (IMO etc.). If you want a vintage amp / cab but built to modern standards then you can order them from custom amp / cab makers who can just replicate the design, but have better components / QC.

[ambient]

Don't know if Trace Elliot counts as 'classic', but the one I played through recently sounded awful and weighed as much as a small family car, complete with a not so small family.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1442170811' post='2864869']
... early seventies live recordings ...
[/quote]
Are you suggesting that OGWT was actually playing live and not miming to a prerecording?

[Mykesbass]

Just had a quick listen to Deep Purple Made in Japan, a Led Zep track from Danish TV and The Band, the Last Waltz, all sounding pretty decent off youtube through in-ear bud earphones. I'd beg to differ with The Badderer and say that it has probably deteriorated through later transfers, and not the earlier BBC work. I'd imagine channels like Yesterday are working to tight budgets, so ensuring top quality masters isn't going to be high on their agenda.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1442177600' post='2864973']
Are you suggesting that OGWT was actually playing live and not miming to a prerecording?
[/quote]

Careful, I got into serious hot water with the BBC who threatened to take us to court when we told them the "live at the BBC" tapes of a well known band they had supplied us turned out to be the original CBS masters!

[Phil Starr]

Yes I know that there may be a lot of issues about transferring recordings, recording technology et al. I tried to recognise that up front without being too long winded, a first for me probably but the bass tones in particular were bad, guitar keys and vox sounded so much better and were presumably suffering the same sonic journey.

Yes, I suspect the cabs a lot. I was designing and custom building gear back then, as I do now and I know how the tech has evolved, but I like to think I'm objective and I was still shocked how poor the bass all sounded.

I'll see if any of the performances are on youtube if I get time.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Phil Starr

[Lozz196]

Listening back to those kinds of shows, the bass always sounded very middy rather than bassy to me. No real low-end. But then as has been said, how much of that is also due to the live recording equipment. Certainly pub bands in the early 80s had rigs that sounded far bassier.

[Hobbayne]

And also bare in mind, the sound of these shows were mixed to suit the sound of your average 1970's Ferguson mono telly speaker. They didnt know that in the future we would be watching these shows on our state of the art - hi def - nicam -surround sound tellys.

[JapanAxe]

I remember turning up the volume on the TV in the late 70s in a vain attempt to produce anything approaching loudness when OGWT was on. All I got was background hiss. They seriously screwed with the sound before broadcasting it.

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='Hobbayne' timestamp='1442180605' post='2865010']
And also bare in mind, the sound of these shows were mixed to suit the sound of your average 1970's Ferguson mono telly speaker. They didnt know that in the future we would be watching these shows on our state of the art - hi def - nicam -surround sound tellys.
[/quote]

This... Probably.

The simulcast 'In Concert' shows with the sound broadcast in stereo on Radio 1 (Tellys were all mono back then) were better, but not great by modern standards.

Having said that, mid range gear is much better now, while it was just adequate back then. I always think of it like being brought up without a bathroom or central heating. You thought it was fine cos you didnt know any different, if that makes sense.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Slipperydick

[obbm]

Video recording started in the late 1950s and by the 1970s it was still a bit of a black art. Because it was the most difficult priority was always given to recording the pictures. The audio tracks were a bit of an afterthought and the concept of synchronising a multi-track audio recorder wasn't even considered.

The workhorse video recorders of the broadcast industry were the Quadraplex Ampex VR2000 and the RCA TR70 which both 2-inch tape. The video was recorded transversely across the tape using a 4-headed scanner. Audio tracks were longitudinal and somewhat rudimentary by modern standards. The BBC used mainly VR2000s. Here is the brochure. Have a look at the audio specs. [url="http://www.digitrakcom.com/literature/VR2000BbrochureWEB.pdf"]http://www.digitrakc...brochureWEB.pdf[/url] . Initially there was no electronic editing so the only way to edit was by developing the tape to see where the control track pulses were and then physically cutting and splicing the tape to make a simple cut.

Anything recorded prior to the mid/late 1970s was on one of these machines. By the mid 1970s the Quad machines started to be replaced by the C-Format 1-inch VTRs and then in the 1980s by the Analogue Betacam SP Cassette Recorders. Finally in the 1990s recording started to become digital and proper full-bandwidth audio was possible.

Edited September 13, 2015 by obbm

[obbm]

[quote name='Slipperydick' timestamp='1442184537' post='2865038']
This... Probably.

The simulcast 'In Concert' shows with the sound broadcast in stereo on Radio 1 (Tellys were all mono back then) were better, but not great by modern standards.

[/quote]

First Simulcast was 1974. BBC2 was colour from 1967. BBC1 and ITV in colour from 1969.

[chris_b]

Bass gear sounded fine back in the 60's and 70's for what it was and for what people wanted. It did its job but it sounded very different to how bass sounds today. The bass players I used to see were never quiet in the clubs. The sound coming out of TV's was pretty bad across the board, but IME it was usually recorded pretty well.

I think bass gear has never sounded better, but Ronnie Wood playing Beck-ola on Bergantino or EBS gear would not have sounded half as good as he did through his 200 watt Marshall stack with every speaker straining to burst through the front cloth.

I used to travel to my gigs in a Morris 1000 Traveller. There might be people who still think they are great little cars but I don't know anyone who'd choose to drive to gigs in one these days.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1442179224' post='2864993']
Certainly pub bands in the early 80s had rigs that sounded far bassier.
[/quote]

Thats the peavey TNT for you

Edited September 14, 2015 by bassman7755

[The Badderer]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1442177839' post='2864974']
Just had a quick listen to Deep Purple Made in Japan, a Led Zep track from Danish TV and The Band, the Last Waltz, all sounding pretty decent off youtube through in-ear bud earphones. I'd beg to differ with The Badderer and say that it has probably deteriorated through later transfers, and not the earlier BBC work. I'd imagine channels like Yesterday are working to tight budgets, so ensuring top quality masters isn't going to be high on their agenda.
[/quote]

Thanks for posting that. I completely agree and was trying to articulate what you put so much better than I did!

[wateroftyne]

Audiophile quality wasn't the primary aim of these mixes...

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1442177839' post='2864974']
Just had a quick listen to Deep Purple Made in Japan, a Led Zep track from Danish TV and The Band, the Last Waltz, all sounding pretty decent off youtube through in-ear bud earphones. The
[/quote]

Well there's your problem. Which of those three, if any, was actually a live recording?

I'm very familiar with The Last Waltz. One of my favourite activities used to be watching the DVD and trying to spot any moment where what the bass could be seen to be playing matched the notes I could hear on the soundtrack.

[ubit]

No one has mentioned the style back then was for a different sound than we tend to strive for today. You never heard toppy, metallic sounds back then. It was very thumpy type bass that was the norm , at least in my experience. I listen to old songs and think, I would never be happy with that indescribable rumble !
I realise a lot of that would be down to the gear available, but I think we should allow that most players looked for that type of sound. It was just en vogue.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1442212046' post='2865097']
Well there's your problem. Which of those three, if any, was actually a live recording?

I'm very familiar with The Last Waltz. One of my favourite activities used to be watching the DVD and trying to spot any moment where what the bass could be seen to be playing matched the notes I could hear on the soundtrack.
[/quote]

Ah, OK, hadn't scrutinised the Last Waltz, but pretty sure the Led Zep was genuine live footage, and I know from having worked on the catalogue, including sorting out some remixing and mastering of the Deep Purple live catalogue that Live in Japan was exactly that. Not going to watch Last Waltz too closely now, love the show and don't want the illusion shattered

[TrevorR]

[quote name='Hobbayne' timestamp='1442180605' post='2865010']
And also bare in mind, the sound of these shows were mixed to suit the sound of your average 1970's Ferguson mono telly speaker. They didnt know that in the future we would be watching these shows on our state of the art - hi def - nicam -surround sound tellys.
[/quote]

That was what sprung to mind for me. As others have said, I suspect that the mixing and mastering was more about a sound that pretty low quality 4" oval TV speaker could cope with (and that wasn't deep rounded bass). Again, hence the In Concert approach of a broadcasting some concerns on BBC2 with the soundtrack broadcast on Radio 1 for much higher (mono, AM radio!!!) sound quality.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1442170811' post='2864869']
Just been watching The Old Grey Whistle Test, sounds of the seventies on Yesterday and I was struck by just how poor the bass sound is in almost every song. All using classic gear which we now rave about. Valve amps and stacks of large speakers. The possible exception is the Ampeg Fridge users that sounded OK at least some of the time. Now something could be lost in translation of course but these were top bands, using then state of the art gear and recorded by the BBC. Almost nothing I heard would pass muster in a pub covers band today in terms of sound quality.

In my memory it all sounded fantastic but the reality was that the bass in particular sounded awful in early seventies live recordings. So, was the gear really that good?
[/quote]

My recollection is that that was the standard of the day.
I don't think Ampeg become the benchmark from a sound point of view, as so much as it did what it did
better than most. This in turn, became the default hire in kit etc etc .,.,and so we arrived where
we are today.
Now, I think Ampeg on stage is as much iconic as anything else. That is not to say that anyone who
gets to try one doesn't get it..they do, I still think an SVT thru 810 is something to behold, but there are
other options. Now days, you are going to have great monitors and side fills...of a good few thousand
watts, depending on your stage so the bass rig becomes your own bass monitor.
The key to all this is how good your monitoring and depends on the PA spec/cost.
I tend not to trust P.A spec unless I've seen the tech spec.

Not sure about the recording methods of the time...

[TrevorR]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1442174806' post='2864931']
I have a hunch that any deficiencies were down to the cabs more than the amps, as a decent old valve 100 watter through modern speakers is a joy to play through IMO.
[/quote]

Interestingly, when Wal introduced their Mk2 5 string bass they added a low pass filter to the preamp specifically for those players whose speakers couldn't cope with the lower frequencies being produced by the low B string. Such were the average speakers which were more common back then. I suspect, though that the target deficient amps they were thinking of were rather more Laney Linebacker than Ampeg 8x10! :-)