Classic gear, how good was it really.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='obbm' timestamp='1442184563' post='2865039']

The workhorse video recorders of the broadcast industry were the Quadraplex Ampex VR2000 and the RCA TR70 which both 2-inch tape. The video was recorded transversely across the tape using a 4-headed scanner. Audio tracks were longitudinal and somewhat rudimentary by modern standards. The BBC used mainly VR2000s. Here is the brochure. Have a look at the audio specs. [url="http://www.digitrakcom.com/literature/VR2000BbrochureWEB.pdf"]http://www.digitrakc...brochureWEB.pdf[/url] . Initially there was no electronic editing so the only way to edit was by developing the tape to see where the control track pulses were and then physically cutting and splicing the tape to make a simple cut.

Anything recorded prior to the mid/late 1970s was on one of these machines. By the mid 1970s the Quad machines started to be replaced by the C-Format 1-inch VTRs and then in the 1980s by the Analogue Betacam SP Cassette Recorders. Finally in the 1990s recording started to become digital and proper full-bandwidth audio was possible.
[/quote]

Thanks that is genuinely interesting, though the biggest restriction seems to be on the top end, and -2dB 50-15kHz wouldn't affect the bass too much. Certainly the improvement of sound in the mid 70's and again in the late 70's early 80's ties in with what you are saying.
Personally I suspect some of the engineering techniques might have been more significant than the recording gear. BBC and a lot of other sound engineers were notoriously trained as technicians first and foremost, and had little feel for rock music, though this would have changed rapidly over the period of time we are talking about. I would imagine OGWT would have attracted those people who were interested in the music and a team developed.

Other people have assumed that there was a deterioration in the sound when it was sold/licensed across from the BBC to Yesterday. I assume the BBC would have digitised the material from their masters and this is what was sold, I can't imagine they sent the master tapes.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1442170811' post='2864869']
In my memory it all sounded fantastic but the reality was that the bass in particular sounded awful in early seventies live recordings. So, was the gear really that good?
[/quote]

Spare a thought for the poor old 60s where live sound was even worse using amps and guitars that everyone now seems to revere.

You only have to look at artists like Paul McCartney and Hank Marvin - do they still use the same Vox or whatever amps in more recent years. The answer is no.

There is also the role the bass played in the music - 70s TV recordings or live sound with The Average White Band, Free or Bad Company for instance was v good as far as bass was concerned.

I was a great fan of Ten Years After and particularly Leo Lyons and saw them live a number of times - their bass sound live (through twin Marshall stacks) sounded vanilla bass to me though the playing was great - fast forward to 83 and he was using a Wal with transistor amp of some sort and the sound was far more authentic to the recorded sound.

A lot of bass players moved to Acoustic 370 set ups in the early 70s (especially R and B - but including Family Man Barrett and John Paul Jones amongst others). I think high powered transistorised bass amps made a huge difference - changing to an Acoustic 370 and Stingray in the late 70s from a Jazz and valve set up made a light and day change in my own bass sound. Changing to 10" speakers and a high powered class D completed the sound for me.

I think the reverence to 60s and 70s equipment is as much buying into nostalgia as it is quality, perhaps more so. Remember there are a lot of people buying this stuff purely to buy nostalgia (I know of a number of people buying les Paul's or fiesta red strats purely for nostalgia - they can't play although aspire to learn in their final years.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1442177600' post='2864973']
Are you suggesting that OGWT was actually playing live and not miming to a prerecording?
[/quote]

It was a two hour program, whilst the use of pre recorded material happens it's pretty obvious to a musician when someone is miming. I've no idea of how things were mic'd up or perhaps DI'd but I'm happy it was recorded in the studio for the main part.

Some of the bass sounded OK, if a little old school thumpy, much of it was awful, truly awful.

I understand that some of what I heard may be down to poor recordings but for me the simpler explanation is that people were struggling to get a good consistent bass sound with what we now see as classic gear. The funny thing was I only noticed after about half an hour of listening, I was hearing what I expected to hear and I'd tuned in to have a couple of hours of happy nostalgia, of great songs, loon pants and long hair. Once I noticed the bass sound it became a 'thing' I couldn't ignore. I think I was as guilty as anyone of a rose tinted memory of times past and that we perhaps don't recognise how far our tech has come.

[Mickeyboro]

Whistle test was never two hours, and in early days certainly used pre-recorded backing tapes (the Who, Lindisfarne come to mind).

Edited September 14, 2015 by Mickeyboro

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Mickeyboro' timestamp='1442222892' post='2865185']
Whistle test was never two hours, and in early days certainly used pre-recorded backing tapes (the Who, Lindisfarne come to mind).
[/quote]

this was a compilation

[Norris]

As far as I can tell a lot of OGWT was recorded live, but there are a few obvious exceptions. There was one on the other day - Argent doing God Gave Rock and Roll, and the guitarist couldn't remember the adhoc fills he'd done on the recording

[Beer of the Bass]

I can think of a few live recordings from the late 60s and early 70s where I actively enjoy the bass sound. One of those would be Miles Davis' Live Evil album, where I think Micheal Henderson was using a Fender Showman rig (from photos around that time). It's a good sound, clear enough but with some grit when he digs in harder, and I wouldn't have a problem gigging with a sound like that now. But that was recorded in a small club, and it's quite possible that the same rig used in a larger hall might be a farty mess.

[Jazzneck]

There was a reason that Led Zep wouldn't appear live on TV or radio in the olden days.

The sound engineers wouldn't / couldn't translate their live sound accurately onto the radio or tele. which, as previously typed, were in low power mono with crap speakers.

The live sound we had in those days was different because bass players were bass players not frustrated lead guitarists, but that's another can of worms.

Runs for cover whilst stating that my 1968 Elgen100W head through a 2015 Barefaced Retro210 (which replaces the Vox T60 cab I used with the Elgen in the late '60s) is the closest I've got to the ideal sound in my head. .

I wonder how this rig would have come across on "The Starkicker"?

Edited September 14, 2015 by Jazzneck

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='obbm' timestamp='1442185327' post='2865046']
First Simulcast was 1974. BBC2 was colour from 1967. BBC1 and ITV in colour from 1969.
[/quote]

I mean mono as in monaural, not monochrome. When did nicam sound start ?

Few colour TVs sold before 1973, when they finally started to catch on.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Slipperydick

[TimR]

I'm sure stereo TVs didn't start becoming mainstream until the 1990s.

In the 80s I was using older gear. I think this is where the 15s sound more bassy than 10s argument comes from. They really used to. IIRC most cabs were sealed as well.

[obbm]

[quote name='Slipperydick' timestamp='1442228509' post='2865258']
I mean mono as in monaural, not monochrome. When did nicam sound start ?

[/quote]

I think it was 1991

[chris_b]

Led Zep did what they did for one reason. . . . album sales.

Back in the day, when you recorded an album you always ran it through a 2" x 3" speaker to check the mix for the sound on a transistor or car radio, but you never recorded or mixed just for one of those speakers.

I've recorded a few times for the BBC in the 70's and while they might have put their trainee sound engineers on the pop stuff they didn't purposely downgrade their recordings. The last recording I did at Maida Vale, about 5 years ago was on the full desk with all the bells and whistles.

Rick Danko and Earth, Wind and Fire were two of the worst for re recording the bass when filming their bands on a gig.

[TrevorR]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1442219313' post='2865139']


... I would imagine OGWT would have attracted those people who were interested in the music and a team developed...

[/quote]

You'd have thought so however, if you listen to any of Mark Ellen and David Hepworth's reminiscences of the Whistle Test days it was clear that (outside the key production crew) the crews were simply assigned by rota and would frankly rather have been doing the Cilla Black show or Panorama. That is to say, "proper" BBC TV shows. Not what they considered to be ridiculous fluff with no lasting merit. Funny how perspectives on rock music have changed over time...

[obbm]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1442219313' post='2865139']
Other people have assumed that there was a deterioration in the sound when it was sold/licensed across from the BBC to Yesterday. I assume the BBC would have digitised the material from their masters and this is what was sold, I can't imagine they sent the master tapes.
[/quote]

Firstly the BBC would never let go of the original master tapes. As the artistic and financial values of archives were fully understood there was a great move to transfer away from Quad tape to newer formats. Quad tape is very expensive and can deteriorate if not stored correctly. Also the Quad VTRs are delicate and complex bits of kit and the guys who knew how to get the best out of them have mostly retired. In those days it was an engineer per machine. It could well be that some of these programmes have been transferred several times before ending up as a digital file on a transmission server.

[JTUK]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1442230886' post='2865278']
Led Zep did what they did for one reason. . . . album sales.

Back in the day, when you recorded an album you always ran it through a 2" x 3" speaker to check the mix for the sound on a transistor or car radio, but you never recorded or mixed just for one of those speakers.

I've recorded a few times for the BBC in the 70's and while they might have put their trainee sound engineers on the pop stuff they didn't purposely downgrade their recordings. The last recording I did at Maida Vale, about 5 years ago was on the full desk with all the bells and whistles.

Rick Danko and Earth, Wind and Fire were two of the worst for re recording the bass when filming their bands on a gig.
[/quote]

Further to this, I believe Marcus M will tell the story that the reason that he developed his slap style and sound was because he wanted the bass to be heard on crappy systems, ie radio and cars.

As for EWF..and it might seem sacrilege to say... but when was Verdine's 'bass' played by Verdine live?
I don't know who the bass player was... but either the bass line is re-done or there was a guy backstage playing the lines.

I don't know when this 'change' came about but I'd suspect it may have been the case for 25 years plus..

[Jazzneck]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1442230886' post='2865278']
Led Zep did what they did for one reason. . . . album sales.
[/quote]

I beg to differ.

I was present at The Marquee in 1969 when Jimmy Page, JPJ and Peter Grant were asked by a senior BBC guy to do a couple of numbers live on TV.

The answer was a definite "F.OFF, you lot haven't a clue how to get our real sound out there" or words to that effect.

Perhaps album sales may have come into the equation at a later date, I dunno.

[blue]

I know we didn't have a lot of choices. When I started in the mid 60s, all I remember were Ampeg's B series, the 12,15 and the 18.And the Fender Bassman. When styles changed and volume was needed those amps could not deliver.

Hell, it's 2015 and amps for bass are better but we still don't have the options guitarists have.

Blue

[Dad3353]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1442252335' post='2865534']
I know we didn't have a lot of choices. When I started in the mid 60s, all I remember were Ampeg's B series, the 12,15 and the 18.And the Fender Bassman. When styles changed and volume was needed those amps could not deliver.

Hell, it's 2015 and amps for bass are better but we still don't have the options guitarists have.

Blue
[/quote]

... and [i]still[/i] no cure for the common cold..!

[leroydiamond]

Listened to Deep Purples 'Made in Japan' on vinyl today on a reasonably good hi fi system and the sound was stellar. Apparently this is a totally live effort by Blackmore and Co., simply terrific album, though the CD equivalent does not cut it sonically IMO.
Reckon many these older anologue recordings, for whatever reason just dont transfer well onto digital formats IME.

Edited September 14, 2015 by leroydiamond

[Jazzneck]

[b] Classic gear, how good was it really?[/b]


This good....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsMpHHSLSlc

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1442252335' post='2865534']
I know we didn't have a lot of choices. When I started in the mid 60s, all I remember were Ampeg's B series, the 12,15 and the 18.And the Fender Bassman. When styles changed and volume was needed those amps could not deliver.

Hell, it's 2015 and amps for bass are better but we still don't have the options guitarists have.

Blue
[/quote]

Your right. I tried using my 71 Bassman and a 2X15 not long ago and even with it almost flat out it just didng cut through. its Ok in a small venue, but on a decent stage it just gets lost. Looks the part though.

[kev b]

Sadly, I am old enough to have seen many bands in the early seventies and have played bass since then as well.

The most you could ask of a bass rig back then was that it was audible, IIRC no one ever mentioned tone, just volume. Most of us amateur/semi-pro players aspired for a massive stack that would compete with the drummer, we settled for a cheap mismatched half stack with flappy speakers and wooly tone.

There were no real role models for bassists, maybeJPJ, Mitch Mitchell or Andy Fraser and their tone was not exactly HiFi, later on there was Chris Squire but his tone was no good for belting out CCR covers in the clubs and dance halls even if you could afford a Rickenbacker.

I still have most of my gear from back then (Fender Jazz/Hiwatt /H-H etc) and you can get a reasonable sound from the amps but the speakers are rubbish,

There is a Fleetwood Mac live concert on you tube from the late sixties and (through headphones) the bass sounds really good, as good as modern day recordings so perhaps good live tone was possible. ETA maybe it was DI-ed?

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1442170811' post='2864869']
Just been watching The Old Grey Whistle Test, sounds of the seventies on Yesterday and I was struck by just how poor the bass sound is in almost every song.
[/quote]
What is a poor bass sound?

[TheKcrimsonKing]

I think the reason so many people want old amps is because they do a sound very well that bass players back in the day hated, but modern ones love, I'm talking more about heads than cabinets here. Take Jesse Keeler from DFA 1979, he uses an old Peavey Festival head that I've seen people who played it back when came out have nothing but hate for, because it distorted and sounded bright, which wasn't what your average 70's root note bassist wanted, but it suits him down to the ground because he's a very different player. He has an original cabinet as well which he's replaced the speakers in with PA ones, leading me to believe that it was speakers that caused most of the problems for bassists back then rather than amps.

[spectoremg]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1442256528' post='2865584']
Listened to Deep Purples 'Made in Japan' on vinyl today on a reasonably good hi fi system and the sound was stellar. Apparently this is a totally live effort by Blackmore and Co., simply terrific album, though the CD equivalent does not cut it sonically IMO.
Reckon many these older anologue recordings, for whatever reason just dont transfer well onto digital formats IME.
[/quote]My recent (CD) copy of MIJ sounds awesome - especially the bass.