The Guys That Give Up, Why?

[KevB]

I think we are also paying approx 2 - 3 times as much for petrol (gas) as you do, for the more distant gigs it really starts to figure into your thinking, even though prices have come down recently.

[JTUK]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1442601333' post='2868202']
I see where Pete's coming from. Over here, established with a following can make all the difference in the world. We know and our customers know when we play we are going to draw punters that don't normally patron their club and they are going to sell more premium alcohol.

The bar band business is tough for new acts over here. Say a new band plays a bar and the crowd is week and alcohol sales are weak. Chances are that band is not going to get asked back or re-booked. And re-book is really the name of the game when your band is trying to make money and stay in business.

Blue
[/quote]

It makes the difference here as well... no pub is looking to book an act they make a loss on. This is just not sustanable.
And Pubs put on music to draw in people that they wouldn't normally draw in...
Decent sorted bands aren't stupid...they aren't going to travel for an hour and not charge for it.

If we drive 45 mins plus ..we do it for a gig that pays £100 more otherwise where is the sense in that.
And if we get a guy drive to our gig for 45mins..they are wanting £80 minumim... whereby £15 of that migt be fuel.

If a band were asked to play 4x45... people wouldn't be interested in them as a band as such so ppl would go to the place
that had music rather than the band that people want to see.

If you can entertain for over 2 hrs, then I take my hat off... because I don't know a band round here that is that interesting for that time.
But I make the distinction between being entertaining and watchable and just having live music in the corner. Any band can play for a long time,
but it is a really special night to be valid for that time.

If more than 2x45 worked then either bands would be asked to play more... but that would cost double, or you'd have support bands.
Maybe pubs have worked out how long ppl will stay and how cost effective it is... In this regard drink-driving plays a big part here
as how long can you spin out 2 pints..

[JTUK]

Personally..and I think I speak from experience 2 hrs is a HUGE ask for a band to be able to pull.
It isn't a show then..it is just a list of numbers where you don't play a planned set...you just fire off the numbers.
There isn't then a planned thought out set.
And from that...you would need a very very able reader of the audience to have any sort of flow in the set.

In all my years playing... I've only seen one front person be able to call that.... and that was a function act.

Anyway..it doesn't matter...there doesn't seem an appetite for it and I'm glad not to get asked to play more than 2x1hrs..
Our vox can't handle any more anyway.. and I think a sustained period of abusing your voice will impact greatly on your vox and range
in a pretty short period of time...( too many don't have traoedn voices or have a regime for lookimg after it)

My mates band in Florida have 4 or 5 main vocals for this reason... that also wouldn't work here.
It is hard enough for a band to have one..

[peteb]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1442600764' post='2868190']


Thing is, in our circuit, most of the bars we play have built up a reputation as a live music venue. So, it makes a big difference when the clientele comes there to hear a live band. Where it can get dicey is when you take a gig at a bar not necessarily known to have bands.Then it's a hit or miss proposition. Normally it's a miss.

Blue
[/quote]
It's pretty much the same over here.

[peteb]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1442611950' post='2868292']
Personally..and I think I speak from experience 2 hrs is a HUGE ask for a band to be able to pull.
It isn't a show then..it is just a list of numbers where you don't play a planned set...you just fire off the numbers.
There isn't then a planned thought out set.
And from that...you would need a very very able reader of the audience to have any sort of flow in the set.

In all my years playing... I've only seen one front person be able to call that.... and that was a function act.

Anyway..it doesn't matter...there doesn't seem an appetite for it and I'm glad not to get asked to play more than 2x1hrs..
Our vox can't handle any more anyway.. and I think a sustained period of abusing your voice will impact greatly on your vox and range
in a pretty short period of time...( too many don't have traoedn voices or have a regime for lookimg after it)

My mates band in Florida have 4 or 5 main vocals for this reason... that also wouldn't work here.
It is hard enough for a band to have one..
[/quote]
That’s true – I don't think that you can play a structured set for that long. I have some friends who often tour in Holland / Belgium playing 4 hours a night in bars / clubs. They play all sorts of stuff at the end of the night to pad out the final sets and, of course, lots of guitar solos…!

Edited September 18, 2015 by peteb

[icastle]

I've got 35 years of gigging behind me and am currently playing in three bands.

I have no more interest in the material we play than a bricklayer has in the walls he's built on a housing estate - it's just not to my taste.

The audiences like it though, and that's good enough for me.
I simply throw personal feelings away and do the job I'm there to do.

[PaulWarning]

personally I find all this talk of money a bit depressing, I play gigs because I enjoy it, the money is a bonus, but it's the buzz you get for a good gig that makes me want to do it, as for playing more than 2 hours, surely the quality has got to suffer, I know my band puts a lot into gigs, we jump around a lot and do about 40 songs, I don't see how that could be kept up for 4 hours.

[ivansc]

PaulWarning:

Having worked both sides of the Atlantic, I would have to say the standard of players I saw & worked with in the USA absolutely obliterated most of the pub and club bands I see in the UK today.
Part of the problem is the number of people like yourself, who do it for the love of playing with no thought to the money aspect. You crowd out a lot of the bad bands, but also reduce the number of paying gigs a professional player can go after.
There is a whole other level above lightly-rehearsed amateur bands where a good 4 hour show is perfectly do-able IF you put the time in to get road-hardened.
Not easy, but then if you are working at that level it IS your job
And 40 songs? When I was working solo in the UK I would play about 50 from a selection of over 300 I had rehearsed up well. Depended on the gig.
Life is tough if you decide to make a living at music.
FWIW I was making the same or better money as a 4 piece band when working solo, which is WHY I went solo. Paid the mortgage, but very hard work.

[Raymondo]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1442649511' post='2868405']
PaulWarning:

Having worked both sides of the Atlantic, I would have to say the standard of players I saw & worked with in the USA absolutely obliterated most of the pub and club bands I see in the UK today.
Part of the problem is the number of people like yourself, who do it for the love of playing with no thought to the money aspect. You crowd out a lot of the bad bands, but also reduce the number of paying gigs a professional player can go after.
There is a whole other level above lightly-rehearsed amateur bands where a good 4 hour show is perfectly do-able IF you put the time in to get road-hardened.
Not easy, but then if you are working at that level it IS your job
And 40 songs? When I was working solo in the UK I would play about 50 from a selection of over 300 I had rehearsed up well. Depended on the gig.
Life is tough if you decide to make a living at music.
FWIW I was making the same or better money as a 4 piece band when working solo, which is WHY I went solo. Paid the mortgage, but very hard work.
[/quote]

I don't know Paul personally by the way......

Where in his post does it say how much he earns? maybe he earns twice as much as you per gig but wants to enjoy the music,maybe not. The point is this is a forum for BASSPLAYERS ...not PROFESSIONAL BASS PLAYERS ONLY.... I have earned a living from my bass and i have played part time for fun too.
I don't hold with this " amateur bass players are taking gigs away from the pros'" nonsense....I've never taken a gig off john Deacon by offering to play Wembley for free ....I would have mind given the chance

[KevB]

The truth is there are bands that won't play for less than a certain amount and won't touch venues that don't come up with it. It is equally true that there are those venues that won't touch some bands with a barge pole because they have a budget and those bands ask far beyond what they can or will pay no matter how much the band thinks they are 'worth it'. That's how there is a playing field out there that can accommodate all sorts of approaches. We all have our limits and level of compromise between the social and financial side of being in a band. Being in a band you love and getting very well paid is best but there are many shades of grey from then on down.
This thread seems to be moving more toward one that's been repeated many times on this forum so I probably won't contribute any further.

Edited September 19, 2015 by KevB

[JTUK]

I think it is a very good and valid tangent.
For me money is important as does set a kind of value on your skillset...sort of..
and it would be easy for me to take £10k worth of gear to a gig...and I'd be shocked if the band
had less than £30k on a decent gig. I haven't really counted.. so it is nice that you have help to
pay for that.

But the driver is the gig... there are things I'm not interested in doing anymore..so I don't do them.

I've always said pubs are too much work for the money but I would say that about weddings and I don't want
to do them often either. Two 'quality' gigs per month on average will do me ok...but the summer throws
much better gigs your way more often and the winter doesn't. My mate who now plays a circuit in the States
had a very good band back here but they played twice a week for 15 years plus ..and never got out of pubs
and therefore never were able to charge much.
What do you do it for.. money, love, combination of the two... ?? Because I percieve the bands I plays with to be
such and such, I might want to measure that against how much the bookers value us..

And, I don't believe ego is very far away from most of it... I can't think of a single musician I know who doesn't have one
tucked away somewhere or other..

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1442649511' post='2868405']
PaulWarning:

Having worked both sides of the Atlantic, I would have to say the standard of players I saw & worked with in the USA absolutely obliterated most of the pub and club bands I see in the UK today.
Part of the problem is the number of people like yourself, who do it for the love of playing with no thought to the money aspect. You crowd out a lot of the bad bands, but also reduce the number of paying gigs a professional player can go after.
There is a whole other level above lightly-rehearsed amateur bands where a good 4 hour show is perfectly do-able IF you put the time in to get road-hardened.
Not easy, but then if you are working at that level it IS your job
And 40 songs? When I was working solo in the UK I would play about 50 from a selection of over 300 I had rehearsed up well. Depended on the gig.
Life is tough if you decide to make a living at music.
FWIW I was making the same or better money as a 4 piece band when working solo, which is WHY I went solo. Paid the mortgage, but very hard work.
[/quote]
[quote name='Raymondo' timestamp='1442650640' post='2868418']
I don't know Paul personally by the way......

Where in his post does it say how much he earns? maybe he earns twice as much as you per gig but wants to enjoy the music,maybe not. The point is this is a forum for BASSPLAYERS ...not PROFESSIONAL BASS PLAYERS ONLY.... I have earned a living from my bass and i have played part time for fun too.
I don't hold with this " amateur bass players are taking gigs away from the pros'" nonsense....I've never taken a gig off john Deacon by offering to play Wembley for free ....I would have mind given the chance
[/quote]
[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1442652494' post='2868443']
The truth is there are bands that won't play for less than a certain amount and won't touch venues that don't come up with it. It is equally true that there are those venues that won't touch some bands with a barge pole because they have a budget and those bands ask far beyond what they can or will pay no matter how much the band thinks they are 'worth it'. That's how there is a playing field out there that can accommodate all sorts of approaches. We all have our limits and level of compromise between the social and financial side of being in a band. Being in a band you love and getting very well paid is best but there are many shades of grey from then on down.
This thread seems to be moving more toward one that's been repeated many times on this forum so I probably won't contribute any further.
[/quote]I really shouldn't post when I come in from a gig after a few pints, I come across as more augmentative than I mean, but I did say personally as the first word of my post. I've had this professional versus amateur discussion before, "you amateurs are doing us professionals out of work", are we supposed to stop playing then? how did professional players start? as amateurs. as the other two posts have alluded to if you play for a living you had better make sure you are a notch above the rest of us otherwise you shouldn't be doing it.
I didn't say we only knew 40 songs but that's how many we play in an energetic 2 hour set (we are punk band btw) to play for 4 hours I would imagine you have to pad the set out with solo's and long songs and pace yourself, again, personally, I'd rather go and watch a band giving their all for 90 minutes than a band playing 50 songs in 4 hours, but that's just me

Edited September 19, 2015 by PaulWarning

[chris_b]

I've seen many bands "having fun" and sounding crap. Whatever your reason for playing, if you're sounding crap you're getting in the way of better bands.

So some guys "bounce around" for 2 sets and think that's where it's at. My earlier point was that more playing makes you a better musician, a better player, a better band. It's a different approach. You don't run a mile the same way you run a sprint. The guys who can do it get better the guys who can't, should stop. In my book, either way, it's a good outcome.

The money is important. It has nothing to do with being "mercenary", "trying to get rich", "we're only in it to have fun" or any thing else. The bottom line is because most of us are playing in a commercial environment and if someone is making money out of our playing then we should be too.

Edited September 19, 2015 by chris_b

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1442654243' post='2868462']


And, I don't believe ego is very far away from most of it... I can't think of a single musician I know who doesn't have one
tucked away somewhere or other..
[/quote]absolutely you've got to have a larger than average ego to get up there and do it, and why? because we crave the applause and acceptance of other people, human nature.

[JTUK]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1442654685' post='2868469']
absolutely you've got to have a larger than average ego to get up there and do it, and why? because we crave the applause and acceptance of other people, human nature.
[/quote]

yes, I think it is there... how it actually works for some might be different and it might not be upfront but it is a driver.
Even the most placcid players... have it, IME, they aren't very vocal about it but they'll show it or mention it quietly.
Maybe they don't like to show it to others, but they have it.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1442654367' post='2868465']
I've seen many bands "having fun" and sounding crap. Whatever your reason for playing, if you're sounding crap you're getting in the way of better bands.

So some guys "bounce around" for 2 sets and think that's where it's at. My earlier point was that more playing makes you a better musician, a better player, a better band. It's a different approach. You don't run a mile the same way you run a sprint. The guys who can do it get better the guys who can't, should stop. In my book, either way, it's a good outcome.

The money is important. It has nothing to do with being "mercenary", "trying to get rich", "we're only in it to have fun" or any thing else. The bottom line is because most of us are playing in a commercial environment and if someone is making money out of our playing then we should be too.
[/quote]not for long, if you sound crap the bookings will soon dry up, at the end of the day everybody, more or less, finds their own level, for instance I couldn't play in a function band (which, I'm told, is where the big money is) because I'm not good enough, or motivated enough, to play all different styles.

[chris_b]

I agree about the ego.

An ego in check is a great asset to a performer.

It's when the ego gets out of control and takes over or when it starts to exceed the talent that's when all the problems start.

Edited September 19, 2015 by chris_b

[Lynottfan]

I can't imagine giving up, so far this year its been a little lean for me, only a few gigs played, a new band sort of started that is taking its time, but giving up playing? never! Not till they nail the lid down on me!

[TimR]

I think the money argument is raising its head but I'm not sure how this fits in with people giving up.

Regards 'bouncing around', it's important to introduce light and shade into your sets as well as into each song. Go and see a stadium band and they'll play maybe 2hours plus. Every song is not a full on blast. The band gets tired, the audience gets tired.

For a wedding band doing 3 sets our ban leader used to try and put real big powerful get up and dance numbers in to try and get the crowd up from the off.

We learned pretty quickly that isn't the way to do it. The big numbers need to be full on all the way through the last hour. People will in the main start to get going halfway through your 2nd set.

If people want to dance from the off, they will.

Personally, I've left bands for a variety of reasons, but in hindsight usually the writing has been on the wall for a while before I become disillusioned.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Lynottfan' timestamp='1442656699' post='2868500']
I can't imagine giving up, so far this year its been a little lean for me, only a few gigs played, a new band sort of started that is taking its time, but giving up playing? never! Not till they nail the lid down on me!
[/quote]this is the way feel at the moment, but our drummer and guitarist of 10years recently quit because they didn't want to gig regularly anymore, the replacement guitarist joined us and quit his last band because they didn't gig enough!

[Marvin]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1442656372' post='2868496']
not for long, if you sound crap the bookings will soon dry up, at the end of the day everybody, more or less, finds their own level....
[/quote]

There are an abundance of awful sounding bands who are getting regular bookings all the time. I just turned one down recently
They have a full diary of gigs and 3 of the 5 members are just dreadful. I'm very average, and they're worse than me. They play what the punters want to hear so they get the gigs.

[JTUK]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1442656519' post='2868498']
I agree about the ego.

An ego in check is a great asset to a performer.

It's when the ego gets out of control and takes over or when it starts to exceed the talent that's when all the problems start.
[/quote]

Agree, I have no problem with someone who knows they are good... it is when you can't cash the cheque that is the problem.
Also, the better you are, the less you have to shout about it.
In this respect some of the top players you meet can be quite humble and not in your face.
But if you want to get to the top, and these guys DO.. you have to have great drive and desire to be the best you can be.

[JTUK]

And you have to have drive to want to improve to not give up... or you settled ages ago and you are in it for other reasons..??

If I thought I'd reached a level that I couldn't improve on... I would give up as well.
This is why I don't want the 'downer' gigs..I don't want to get as jaded as I have been before.

[peteb]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1442649511' post='2868405']
Having worked both sides of the Atlantic, I would have to say the standard of players I saw & worked with in the USA absolutely obliterated most of the pub and club bands I see in the UK today.
Part of the problem is the number of people like yourself, who do it for the love of playing with no thought to the money aspect. You crowd out a lot of the bad bands, but also reduce the number of paying gigs a professional player can go after.
There is a whole other level above lightly-rehearsed amateur bands where a good 4 hour show is perfectly do-able IF you put the time in to get road-hardened.
Not easy, but then if you are working at that level it IS your job
[/quote]
Surely any professional player expecting to make a living playing in pubs (certainly in the UK) needs to have a word with himself and get a day job! Simple economics mean that a pub is not going to pay more than £200-£300 (at the most) and a share of that is not going to provide what most people would consider a half-decent living.

The real problem is the number of ‘amateur’ bands that are just not good enough but still get plenty of work in pubs crowding out better bands and there are not enough good quality bands to displace them...

[JTUK]

I broadly agree...

And if you want to earn £500 a week and have a mortgage, then you need 3x £100 gigs.. which is a tough 3 days work ( to get )
and you'll need a midweeker or 2 and a few lessons, and/or jam night.

-which reminds me..a local 'act' try and justify their fee @ £300 as the guys are all full time. I don't go to their gigs but I have chanced upon them in quite a few guises..same personel but different bands and none of them are any good..especially as £300 it 'top' band money.
It kind of rankles that they think they are worth it..and presumably get it 90% of the time.
I guess it comes down to 'don't ask, don't get'..
That is why I don't have any qualms about asking for £350 plus if I have an outfit that I think are worth it,,compared to what other bands are getting.
But... I wouldn't be doing a 3 piece to maiximise money. But, then we come back to who will work for what.
I think this is relevant as it is all about gigs that we want to do..rather than give up.