lojo Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 I think I am in the perfect band for me right now, its made up of people with similar desires. Which is to be in a band worthy of any function , but without the schedule of gigs that goes with a full on functions band. We have turned down more gigs than we have played recently due to dairy clashes. But it is nice to get offered weddings and functions by people who see us play , it means we are doing something right. We charge a decent amount and will only do certain pubs where a full on party gig is likely to occur, as this is more important to us than the actual money. I've done the well paid to play the run of the mill wedding sets and spend hours hanging around, but its not something I want right now, my day job is going well and I like seeing my family and have other interests, a gig has to be about more than the fee for me, or I would give up. I wish people who do low end gigging would not moan about weekend players, its like tradesmen moaning about polish workers, all industries have their competition and issues. You have to focus on your service, and if you cant make it work then you have to move into something else or change your plan. People are not going to step out of your way just because you feel more worthy or skilled than them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1442662045' post='2868573'] Surely any professional player expecting to make a living playing in pubs (certainly in the UK) needs to have a word with himself and get a day job! Simple economics mean that a pub is not going to pay more than £200-£300 (at the most) and a share of that is not going to provide what most people would consider a half-decent living. The real problem is the number of ‘amateur’ bands that are just not good enough but still get plenty of work in pubs crowding out better bands and there are not enough good quality bands to displace them... [/quote] They're obviously good enough to get the gigs. Next time you see one of these bands, ask yourself, what is the magic ingredient they have. Study the way they interact with the crowd closely. A clue; it has nothing to do with the quality of the musicianship. . Edited September 19, 2015 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1442693343' post='2868857'] They're obviously good enough to get the gigs. Next time you see one of these bands, ask yourself, what is the magic ingredient they have. Study the way they interact with the crowd closely. A clue; it has nothing to do with the quality of the musicianship. . [/quote] I think that you maybe missing the point - it's not that they've got a great act without being technically great players, just that they are very mediocre bands who wouldn't get work in progress places like America where the standard for bar bands is higher. I've just come back from an established rock gig where we had a very good night. Talking to a local biker guy who's been watching bands for years who said that we were the one of two credible bands on the local rock circuit, whereas a few years ago every band was that good. I didn't agree and said that the time he was taking about there were maybe five decent bands around. The point is that there are not enough quality bands on the circuit, both in terms of musicianship and performance.... Edited September 20, 2015 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 If it's true that there are not enough good bands on a given circuit , then the door is wide open to those with a good product If there where not enough good firms providing a good service in my industry , I'd be smiling not moaning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivansc Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='Raymondo' timestamp='1442650640' post='2868418'] I don't know Paul personally by the way...... Where in his post does it say how much he earns? maybe he earns twice as much as you per gig but wants to enjoy the music,maybe not. The point is this is a forum for BASSPLAYERS ...not PROFESSIONAL BASS PLAYERS ONLY.... I have earned a living from my bass and i have played part time for fun too. I don't hold with this " amateur bass players are taking gigs away from the pros'" nonsense....I've never taken a gig off john Deacon by offering to play Wembley for free ....I would have mind given the chance [/quote] Good point. Apologies to Paul for assuming he was a semi-pro/amateur. O.P. My comments about the amateurs diluting the paying gigs are based on what I see happening locally now. So many club venues moving over to "karaoke" solo acts because they can no longer find bands that can cut it! Scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivansc Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1442662045' post='2868573'] Surely any professional player expecting to make a living playing in pubs (certainly in the UK) needs to have a word with himself and get a day job! Simple economics mean that a pub is not going to pay more than £200-£300 (at the most) and a share of that is not going to provide what most people would consider a half-decent living. The real problem is the number of ‘amateur’ bands that are just not good enough but still get plenty of work in pubs crowding out better bands and there are not enough good quality bands to displace them... [/quote] The only time I actually made a living out of pubs was when I reinvented myself as a singing guitarist. I was pulling in punters who bought beer, so I was paid accordingly. But you are right - anyone in a band expecting to make a living out of playing pubs is S.O.L. for the most part. Got to say that even now the band I am in locally makes a minimum £100 per man net. And we don't play any further than an hour drive from home. Mind you, even that is getting to be hard work these days! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurksalot Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) [quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1442733309' post='2868986'] ........ So many club venues moving over to "karaoke" solo acts because they can no longer find bands that can cut it! Scary. [/quote] I think though that there are plenty of places trying to book bands that don't even research the bands they are booking, they end up paying cheap , getting mediocre and the punters feeling non-plussed . then it goes downwards in ever decreasing circles , even if they hit on a decent band there is no-one left going to the venue. Edited September 20, 2015 by lurksalot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivansc Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1442693343' post='2868857'] They're obviously good enough to get the gigs. Next time you see one of these bands, ask yourself, what is the magic ingredient they have. Study the way they interact with the crowd closely. A clue; it has nothing to do with the quality of the musicianship. [/quote] There is another aspect to this. Years ago when I first returned to the UK, I was working with a guitar and MIDI tracks on the pub circuit. A pub I had worked regularly changed hands. I went in and introduced myself to the landlord, showed him my name in the pub's diary as a regularly-booked act & offered to do a one-off "get acquainted" gig for him for £90. He replied that he had never paid more than £70 for music, even if it was a five piece band and h want about to start now. The pub went from being one of the more successful local music pubs to empty on the weekends in a couple of months because of the rubbish acts he had playing there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1442733763' post='2868990'] I think though that there are plenty of places trying to book bands that don't even research the bands they are booking, they end up paying cheap , getting mediocre and the punters feeling non-plussed . then it goes downwards in ever decreasing circles , even if they hit on a decent band there is no-one left going to the venue. [/quote]I've come across this, how hard is it to check up on a band? surely a few phone calls to other venues would do it, or even the bands gig list gives a vital clue to how well they're thought of if you know what the other venues are like in your area, and that's without even getting up off your arse and actually going to look at bands play live, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='lojo' timestamp='1442728332' post='2868968'] If it's true that there are not enough good bands on a given circuit , then the door is wide open to those with a good product If there where not enough good firms providing a good service in my industry , I'd be smiling not moaning [/quote] Quite. If the bands are drawing a crowd then they must be good. Surely the punters feedback to the landlord whether the band is good or bad. Whenever we play the landlord is ready to book us straight away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I'm fairly convinced that the majority of the audience know when they hear a good band, know when they get a bad band, but the mediocre acts go down well. And as musicians, when we see a mediocre band we think they're bad. It's a different viewpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Of course, Landlords talk which is why your gigs need a buzz and you need that buzz from the start as after 6 months, you wont recover from gigs as people can say they've seen such and such and they've formed their opinion. Bands can't re-invent themselves that quickly. The standard is the standard and you'll position yourself accordingly....price-wise and appeal-wise. The fact that some pubs have a fee cap, in effect, is their issue and bands can take a decision on whether the gig is worth it. Personally, pubs aren't worth it but that doesn't mean I don't do a few that I feel work. There are plenty of full time guys flogging pubs but I assume they have cut their cloth accordingly.... But a decent pub gig to me, is one where the LL's know music and will pay accordingly as everyone looks good when a great night works.. but... a local pub LL boasts he has 944 bands on his books..?? but he only has 130 or so gigs per year... so that means he uses 40 bands??? You'd think he'd have a stellar rosta.... but I wouldn't call it the best pub gig around, at all.!!! But I'd think a new band wanting to get on the circuit would be desperate to get in there..?? That is hype and self promo for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1442735490' post='2869010'] I'm fairly convinced that the majority of the audience know when they hear a good band, know when they get a bad band, but the mediocre acts go down well. And as musicians, when we see a mediocre band we think they're bad. It's a different viewpoint. [/quote] They know what THEY think is a good band or one that they enjoy... but even they know and get to hear when a really good band surfaces...even if the music isn't quite their normal thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1442739894' post='2869042'] Personally, pubs aren't worth it but that doesn't mean I don't do a few that I feel work. [/quote] That is exactly my approach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1442733970' post='2868992'] He replied that he had never paid more than £70 for music, even if it was a five piece band and h want about to start now. The pub went from being one of the more successful local music pubs to empty on the weekends in a couple of months because of the rubbish acts he had playing there. [/quote] This is what happens all to often when a new guy moves in. Many pubs are subsidised by the brewery so the landlords don't have to make good decisions when booking bands. We've just cancelled a venue (4 gigs a year) because the bands are being made to invoice an agency (the fee has also been reduced) who will then give the bands a cheque after a couple of months. For pub money it's not worth the wait and the hassle. Apparently this system is not being introduced to hit the bands but because the brewery has found lots of landlords invoicing them for non-existent gigs. Bad bands are getting gigs because the guys running the venues don't care enough to do a better job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1442663219' post='2868589'] I guess it comes down to 'don't ask, don't get'.. [/quote] isn't this just sales and negotiating technique winning over musical ability though? (and has broadly applied to many mainstream commercial acts for several decades) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1442742836' post='2869075'] isn't this just sales and negotiating technique winning over musical ability though? (and has broadly applied to many mainstream commercial acts for several decades) [/quote] Can put it like that... but the kicker is that this band feel they are worty the premium as they are full time. The fact that none of the bands that this line-up put out are any good is the odd thing- in that they charge that rate. It is not as though they pull well so I fall to see how this model works. Having said that, they don't show on the circuit too often of late...or if they do, it is new start-up pub and that pub generally doesn't join the circuit as the gig didn't work. I think most pubs can't and don't see the value of them so they do parties where £450 is more their market. Not sure £450 is a good price for a party but it's workable between 3 guys, from their POV..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1442741553' post='2869062'] This is what happens all to often when a new guy moves in. Many pubs are subsidised by the brewery so the landlords don't have to make good decisions when booking bands. We've just cancelled a venue (4 gigs a year) because the bands are being made to invoice an agency (the fee has also been reduced) who will then give the bands a cheque after a couple of months. For pub money it's not worth the wait and the hassle. Apparently this system is not being introduced to hit the bands but because the brewery has found lots of landlords invoicing them for non-existent gigs. Bad bands are getting gigs because the guys running the venues don't care enough to do a better job. [/quote] Common story... but that is the trade these days where LL's don't last 12 months...!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassist_lewis Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I think I'm coming at this from the opposite end to a lot of you older guys (who have done most of the posting here). I started making the effort to be a regular gigging musician about 5 years ago, I got lucky in some respects as I got in with a wedding band that operates like a franchise so has up to 10 bands out on a Saturday night and therefore always needs musicians. This introduced me to a lot of good people and also allowed me to cut my teeth in the wedding/corporate scene. The skills I learnt there have helped me get more of the high paying gigs (allowing more time to practice) and informed a lot of my original music. I think one of the key differences between those who don't give up and those that do - excluding personal choice and injuries - is that they got in with the better/busier players in town, which leads to better gigs and opportunities, which gives you motivation to do more. I've played with a lot of sub-standard musicians because I wasn't moving in the' good musician' circles at the time. Because I powered through, learned from my mistakes and orchestrated a few situations in my favour, I am now a far more in-demand player. I guess it depends how much bull$#£ you can put up with - hint: it's a lot - and also how self-aware you are. Luck may also play some part in it too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassist_lewis Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I think I'm coming at this from the opposite end to a lot of you older guys (who have done most of the posting here). I started making the effort to be a regular gigging musician about 5 years ago, I got lucky in some respects as I got in with a wedding band that operates like a franchise so has up to 10 bands out on a Saturday night and therefore always needs musicians. This introduced me to a lot of good people and also allowed me to cut my teeth in the wedding/corporate scene. The skills I learnt there have helped me get more of the high paying gigs (allowing more time to practice) and informed a lot of my original music. I think one of the key differences between those who don't give up and those that do - excluding personal choice and injuries - is that they got in with the better/busier players in town, which leads to better gigs and opportunities, which gives you motivation to do more. I've played with a lot of sub-standard musicians because I wasn't moving in the' good musician' circles at the time. Because I powered through, learned from my mistakes and orchestrated a few situations in my favour, I am now a far more in-demand player. I guess it depends how much bull$#£ you can put up with - hint: it's a lot - and also how self-aware you are. Luck may also play some part in it too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassist_lewis Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 ... that was weird... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='bassist_lewis' timestamp='1442755145' post='2869223'] I think I'm coming at this from the opposite end to a lot of you older guys (who have done most of the posting here). I started making the effort to be a regular gigging musician about 5 years ago, I got lucky in some respects as I got in with a wedding band that operates like a franchise so has up to 10 bands out on a Saturday night and therefore always needs musicians. This introduced me to a lot of good people and also allowed me to cut my teeth in the wedding/corporate scene. The skills I learnt there have helped me get more of the high paying gigs (allowing more time to practice) and informed a lot of my original music. I think one of the key differences between those who don't give up and those that do - excluding personal choice and injuries - is that they got in with the better/busier players in town, which leads to better gigs and opportunities, which gives you motivation to do more. I've played with a lot of sub-standard musicians because I wasn't moving in the' good musician' circles at the time. Because I powered through, learned from my mistakes and orchestrated a few situations in my favour, I am now a far more in-demand player. I guess it depends how much bull$#£ you can put up with - hint: it's a lot - and also how self-aware you are. Luck may also play some part in it too... [/quote] Good post. As I said; commitment, flexibility. And now added: a thick skin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted September 20, 2015 Author Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='bassist_lewis' timestamp='1442755145' post='2869223'] I think one of the key differences between those who don't give up and those that do - excluding personal choice and injuries - is that they got in with the better/busier players in town, which leads to better gigs and opportunities, which gives you motivation to do more. I've played with a lot of sub-standard musicians because I wasn't moving in the' good musician' circles at the time. Because I powered through, learned from my mistakes and orchestrated a few situations in my favour, I am now a far more in-demand player. I guess it depends how much bull$#£ you can put up with - hint: it's a lot - and also how self-aware you are. Luck may also play some part in it too... [/quote] Yes, to all that. All of the guys that I know that gave up were good musicians, but never found themselves or did not have the ability to find lucrative gigging bands that would give them exposure and experience to understand what it takes and what it's like to be compensated financially for the investment to playing and skill they acquired. Their excuse is usually, [i]"I never really wanted to be in a band". [/i]Maybe that's true or maybe it's BS[i].[/i] Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted September 20, 2015 Author Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1442733763' post='2868990'] I think though that there are plenty of places trying to book bands that don't even research the bands they are booking, they end up paying cheap , getting mediocre and the punters feeling non-plussed . then it goes downwards in ever decreasing circles , even if they hit on a decent band there is no-one left going to the venue. [/quote] I can spot amateurs from the second they enter to load in. I can also spot those that treat every gig like the pros they are. You come in with a professional protocol. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurksalot Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1442781396' post='2869485'] I can spot amateurs from the second they enter to load in. I can also spot those that treat every gig like the pros they are. You come in with a professional protocol. Blue [/quote] Maybe , but your not the person booking the bands , it's them that should know ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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