Are We Being Conned?

[Chienmortbb]

Brands like Behringer get a lit of stick for their lack of innovation and reletively inept marketing but frankly looking at some Boutique products. I am wondering whether some of the boutique manifacturers just use better smoke and shinier mirrors?

I am not suggesting that the products are not great products but:

Is a Glockengang Blue Sky twice as good (or is it evan as good as) an Ashdown Rootmaster 800?

Why do Jule Amp copy a vintage Roberts radio then charge a lot of money for a preamp? Yes I know it has valves. So did the first computers and car radios, I don't see many of those about now.

Compressor looks gorgeous but £200 for a stompbox compressor? I thought the Finns had no sense of humour. At least Darkglass is a cool name.

As I said I am not having a pop specifically at those manufacturers, others are just as guilty (if there is any guilt).

[fretmeister]

Behringer and the like don't do their own R&D. They make tributes to other products instead.

Have you got the other makers / inventors R&D spending figures so a proper comparison can be made?

[discreet]

Whether you feel you're being conned or not depends entirely on whether you think products are worth anything. This is the very core of marketing, branding and advertising. Obviously some products are indeed better than others - manufacturers optimise their potential profits by providing a range of quality at different price points to suit different budgets. But in the main something is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. You mentioned Behringer, who do indeed come in for a lot of stick, usually from people who have unrealistic expectations and/or can't read a spec sheet. Behringer are very successful at what they do, but in no way do they produce what would generally be regarded as a 'premium' product. Some of their recent mixers are very good indeed, but I digress.

For people on restricted budgets Behringer provide a useful service and their marketing is actually very shrewd. They can represent the difference between having a usable product and no product at all, and that is the bottom line for some musicians and producers.

Edited September 22, 2015 by discreet

[FuNkShUi]

Behringer has always seemed to take a little flak on here.
Ive not used much of it, but recently bought a new Behringer digital mixer and power amp and both have been brilliant.

[Beer of the Bass]

I think a lot of the price of the small boutique manufacturers is in the increased overheads and lesser purchasing power that goes with making things in small numbers, plus some less efficient manufacturing techniques. I don't think many of the people making this gear are getting rich, put it that way.
Looking at the Jule Monique, it looks to be hand wired on tag-board. This should make no difference to the sound or performance (though that topic is a favourite of multi-page arguments on guitar forums) but is more labour intensive to assemble. It uses a custom wound output transformer which will also increase the cost. The bit I'm puzzled at with the Jule is why they use a valve rectifier. In class-AB power amps, a valve rectifier can cause "sag" due to the way it responds to increased current draw during peaks, which many players like. On a class-A preamp circuit, the current draw does not vary with signal level in the same way and in any case will not be high enough to cause the "sag" effect. So that aspect of it does seem rather like an extra shiny bottle to use as a marketing USP. I'm sure it sounds good though, even if it might sound indistinguishable with 7 pence worth of 4007 diodes instead of the valve rectifier...

[Conan]

If you do your research it is much harder to be "conned". On the other hand, there will always be gullible people with more money than sense who buy expensive stuff just because it is expensive. I makes a statement about them.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1442914877' post='2870403']
Is a Glockengang Blue Sky twice as good (or is it evan as good as) an Ashdown Rootmaster 800?
[/quote]

Those two amps are polar opposites...

One is going for the SVT type tone and the other is one of the cleanest HiFi amps available, it's not really a reasonable comparison.

[chris_b]

What a pointless thread.

[chevy-stu]

A friend of mine makes high end 'boutique' guitar amps.... he charges around £2.5k and more for each head, as these are fully hand made (including the boxes), pretty much custom items, using the best possible components he could find, and designed with no compromises. Whether the audible difference compared to other production line amps would be noticable is one argument, but these things will last a very long time, sound great and will be incredibly reliable.
I did question him about the high price tag, and he says it is a realistic figure based on cost of materials and hours of labour.

[BassBus]

There is also the matter of economies of scale. Behringer produce many thousands of products each year. Boutique manufacturers produce a few score of products each year. Companies producing thousands of units can sell each unit at a much lower price. Think why supermarkets sell for so much less than a small shop. Simple economics.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

The world of veblen goods is fascinating - ownership seems to have the same psychological effect as being a member of a religious cult.

Maybe the question you should be asking is "Are we conning ourselves?"

[Musicman20]

I've noticed it more with effects pedals. I tried some expensive compressors. Which one worked for me? Boss LMB-3.

Effects pedals are so fun, and I own more expensive pedals, but it's always great to get a good EHX pedal for like £60 and it be a better tone, despite the fact it might not be quite as well built or handmade.

I don't really need super high end amps. The normal bass brands plus those that aren't super pricey like Genz serve me well.

[yorks5stringer]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1442918909' post='2870461']
There is also the matter of economies of scale. Behringer produce many thousands of products each year. Boutique manufacturers produce a few score of products each year. [b]Companies producing thousands of units can sell each unit at a much lower price. Think why supermarkets sell for so much less than a small shop.[/b] Simple economics.
[/quote]

Hate to be pedantic, but companies that produce 1000's of units and selling to both supermarkets and corner shops make the item at the same price but due to the Supermarket's purchasing power and loss leaders will sell it cheaper to the Supermarket than the corner shop.

[Chienmortbb]

I expected to be flamed for this and of course you have all thankfully denied me that "pleasure" by writing sensible and thoughful points.

As someone that grew up through the valve era, I have no nostalgia for them and design my own (hobby) products totally solid state. However I can understand the need to own the best.

Of the three products I mentioned, I have to admit the Darkglass Compressor looks gorgeous but the £200 price tag is only just resistable.

chris_b, If I had never seen the length of the Barefaced Handle Caper I would agree.

[heminder]

This video explains a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkRyIN3l9wg

Edited September 22, 2015 by heminder

[dave_bass5]

Id say its a case of fools are easily parted with their money sometimes.

We convince ourselves that paying a lot gets us a lot, and if its not mainstream then its even better. Basses and FX (well, comps and overdrives anyway) spring to mind here.

You just need to look at all the high end gear that's re sold on here to see that paying more doesn't necessarily get you better.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1442929310' post='2870630']chris_b, If I had never seen the length of the Barefaced Handle Caper I would agree.[/quote]

The funny thing is that we still see those exact same handles we used to use on tons of bass and guitar amps and cabs made by a huge variety of notable manufacturers and I've yet to hear a ruckus about any of them!

[discreet]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1442933017' post='2870685']
The funny thing is that we still see those exact same handles we used to use on tons of bass and guitar amps and cabs made by a huge variety of notable manufacturers and I've yet to hear a ruckus about any of them!
[/quote]

I wonder why that is?

[fretmeister]

I bet if the Darkglass compressor was in a rack unit (for only pennies more metal in the casing) people would be thinking £200 was a bargain.

The DG, the Cali, the Empress really are rack units shrunk into pedal format. Making it safe to step on seems to make it have less value for some reason.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1442934544' post='2870707']
I bet if the Darkglass compressor was in a rack unit (for only pennies more metal in the casing) people would be thinking £200 was a bargain.

The DG, the Cali, the Empress really are rack units shrunk into pedal format. Making it safe to step on seems to make it have less value for some reason.
[/quote]

IMO those cases that DG use are very cheap to buy, so to be give the impression of cheapness. The look and feel of my DG VMTD was the only issue i had with it.

[Musicman20]

I do think the Tech 21 and Darkglass prices sometimes get a little silly, and I own Tech 21 stuff.

[yorks5stringer]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1442939436' post='2870790']
I do think the Tech 21 and Darkglass prices sometimes get a little silly, and I own Tech 21 stuff.
[/quote]

Just quoting the Darkglass latest advert for the Microtubes B3K

Assembled in Finland (by experienced, fully covered and well paid builders)
Expanded Attack switch functionality
UK sourced PCB (kept processes in EU, assembled in UK using best components available in market)
New Bypass System, spring actuation switch mechanism rated for 1 million cycles
Unibody chassis made in Helsinki. carved out of a single aluminium block.

Or you could have a pedal assembled in the Far East.........?

Edited September 22, 2015 by yorks5stringer

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1442960847' post='2871036']
Just quoting the Darkglass latest advert for the Microtubes B3K
...
Unibody chassis made in Helsinki. carved out of a single aluminium block.
[/quote]

This is one of those bits that appears to be done as a selling point rather than for functional reasons. They're machining cases out of solid aluminium billet which do exactly the same job as an inexpensive cast aluminium Hammond case and don't look very different, but cost a lot more.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1442960847' post='2871036']


Just quoting the Darkglass latest advert for the Microtubes B3K

Assembled in Finland (by experienced, fully covered and well paid builders)
Expanded Attack switch functionality
UK sourced PCB (kept processes in EU, assembled in UK using best components available in market)
New Bypass System, spring actuation switch mechanism rated for 1 million cycles
Unibody chassis made in Helsinki. carved out of a single aluminium block.

Or you could have a pedal assembled in the Far East.........?
[/quote]

Just not keen on the sound of their grind/tube grit. It's well made kit but extremely expensive for a drive/DI, and I'm not one to stay away from things just because they are expensive.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1442964149' post='2871051']
Just not keen on the sound of their grind/tube grit. It's well made kit but extremely expensive for a drive/DI, and I'm not one to stay away from things just because they are expensive.
[/quote]This was sort of my point. I have just finished playing with an Alesis 3632 compressor (rack mount) and I have to say it is the best compressor I have heard. Clearly not boutique but not as mass market as Behringer.

Of course now I suppose aa an electronics engineer. I should get of my backside and design something good and cheap or should I say inexpensive, myself.