RickenFakers

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='ash' post='1231907' date='May 15 2011, 01:16 PM'][b]Totally agree - I got this answer to my stern email from dear old Ebay who have basically whimped out and put the blame on R corps ......[/b]

My name is Megan and I?m happy to resolve your query about the removal
of John Birch Bass Guitar listing (item no. 140548626245).

I understand it can be a matter of concern to have a listing removed
from the site. I've checked your account and your listing was removed on
the basis of past breach of the policy.

Please note that your similar listing was previously removed because RO,
Rickenbacker International Corporation sent us a signed legal statement
that your item was infringing their trademark/copyright. eBay can?t give
you permission to relist them, that?s why it had to be removed from the
site.

You'll find their contact details in the email notification we sent you
when we removed the listing. If you're able to resolve the issue with
the rights owner, and they grant you permission to relist this item,
we'll reinstate your listing and remove the breach from the account.

Moreover, the restrictions are automatically placed on member's account
on the basis of severity and repetition of the breaches. Unfortunately,
we can't lift the selling restriction from your account. Your
restriction will be lifted at the end of the restriction period after
you've taken the eBay tutorial.

I hope I've been able to explain things clearly. Thank you for your
cooperation.

Kind regards,

Megan Vickers
eBay Trust & Safety

[b]Hmmm....it totally failed to address any of the concerns i raised of course...I doubt there's any point in writing to Mr Hall and his pedants....I'm interested to find out what the tutorial will be about anyone done one, any suggestions? [/b] [/quote]

Write to Mr. Hall anyway, asking him what is infringing, and what laws, pointing out the country in which you reside. See if you can get a copy of the legal statement out of Ebay. I'm 90% sure it won't apply, and there is probably some sort of action that can be taken against spurious legal letters, although there may be a corresponding that law doesn't apply overseas going on (and it would have to be ebay that takes it anyway).

[Mr. Foxen]

We must unite to defeat the Rickenwaffen.

[tauzero]

[quote name='ash' post='1231907' date='May 15 2011, 01:16 PM']Megan - "I understand it can be a matter of concern to have a listing removed from the site. I've checked your account and your listing was removed on the basis of past breach of the policy."[/quote]
I'd suggest creating a second Ebay account and listing it as you have most recently.

[ash]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1232080' date='May 15 2011, 03:13 PM']We must unite to defeat the Rickenwaffen.

[/quote]

[b]Well Mr Churchill inspired me to write this to eBay -[/b]Thank you for your recent listing on eBay. The rights owner or an agent authorized to act on behalf of the rights owner, Rickenbacker International Corporation, notified eBay that this listing breaches intellectual property rights. When eBay receives a report of this type of breach, we remove the listing to comply with the law.
Questions about the specific violation should be addressed to Rickenbacker International Corporation
You can send an email to: [email protected]

With regard to the above, I would like to know how and why I have breached intellectual property rights on the listed item John Birch bass? The bass was made in the early 70s in Birmingham England, it was a one off custom guitar. My listing did not make reference to Rickenbacker or any of its trademarks. As an eBay user resident in the UK I would like to ask when Rickenbacker became the holder of the intellectual property rights to the generic 'bass guitar' since this is the only common factor between their product and the instrument I listed on the eBay site.
Sincerely

[b]...and I got this back....[/b]

The shape of the headstock, body, nameplate, and certain other elements of
Rickenbacker instruments have achieved trademark status in all major world
jurisdictions through registration and other provisions of trademark law,
such as the Lanham Act in the United States.

Due to the burden placed on us by United States case law and the significant
investment we've made in these marks for more than seven decades, we must
strongly enforce proper usage of our marques and cannot permit their use
without permission or on non-Rickenbacker products. Removing mention of
"Rickenbacker" or any creative variation thereof is NOT sufficient to
reinstate your auction.

The eBay user agreement prohibits the sale of infringing goods and
bars the use of keyword spamming which is illegal in the United States.

For further information look here:

[url="http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/trademark.html"]http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/trademark.html[/url]

[url="http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/keyword-spam.html"]http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/keyword-spam.html[/url]

[url="http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/replica-counterfeit.html"]http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/replica-counterfeit.html[/url]

[url="http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/authenticity-disclaimers.html"]http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/authen...isclaimers.html[/url]

eBay's control servers are located in California, placing all auctions under
jurisdiction of U.S. and California law.

You agreed to be bound by this information when you joined eBay.

Why do we police our trademarks agressively while some other instrument makers
often do not? Unfortunately, due to the lack of action on their part in the
past, their trademarks may be invalid or unenforceable. Be assured that they
would also take action if they could. No maker considers infringing items to
be a tribute or form of flattery.

For further specific question you may have, please send your message to
[email protected]. Note that messages containing requests to reinstate
your auction or account will be ignored as our policy and the law has been
clearly stated above.

[b]So I think I will send my next query to Mr Hall himself![/b]

I bet many Basschatters have had similar stories. Interestingly I have sold MANY Rickenfakers on eBay and never had a problem before by using careful wording, etc. ironically this time I made no mention of the Rick shape or its trademarks and this one gets pulled! Perhaps its because of the sheer quality of John Birch's instruments. Anyway I hope all this isn't hijacking this thread, my apologies moderators please feel free to move it wherever, and thanks to all you fellows who have shared your advice and thoughts with me.

[Mr. Foxen]

Every time you list an item that isn't a rickenfaker, make sure you put 'not in any way comparable to a rickenbacker' in the text. Will spam up any saved search type stuff they have. Might add it to my generic pasted in bit at the bottom of all my listings.

Ask them to describe specifically what specifically is comparable with a rick and your bass.

[ash]

[b]Ok this is what I sent -[/b]

With regard to the above, I would like to know how and why I have breached
intellectual property rights on the listed item John Birch bass? The bass
was made in the early 70s in Birmingham England, it was a one off custom
guitar. My listing did not make reference to Rickenbacker or any of its
trademarks. As an eBay user resident in the UK I would like to ask when
Rickenbacker became the holder of the intellectual property rights to the
generic 'bass guitar' since this is the only common factor between their
product and the instrument I listed on the eBay site.
Sincerely

[b]
...and this is what I got back from the chief executive himself...[/b]

The sir,

I have not seen your instrument but if it is shaped anything like our
instruments- head, body, pickguard, pickups, logo plate- it would be
covered by a variety of U.S. and E.C. trademark registrations. A number of
John Birch instruments I have seen in the past infringe these rights and
sale of them would be unlawful.

It doesn’t matter when or where it was made nor where you reside.

I do recall that a John Birch bass was removed from eBay several times last
week, culminating in a listing with no photos and a generic description.
This was referred specially to eBay's U.K. trademark counsel who made the
ultimate call to delete the auction and flag the account due to violation of
their terms of service. Possibly this was yours.

Should you require further advice, I would refer you to any one of the
qualified IP lawyers you have there in the U.K.


Regards,

John C. Hall
Chief Executive Officer

[b]I'm actually quite pleased that they bothered to get in touch to clarify things, it also shows the extent that the Rickenbacker company goes to protect it's identifiable trademarks. Whether we agree with them or not it shows some determination! It still however seems a little harsh to me that as a private seller I have been penalised by restrictions placed upon my account, especially given the current level of blatant rickenfakery going on these days. The double standards by which ebay continues to operate never ceases to amaze me. Without doubt if my bass had passed Rickenbacker's scrutiny eBay would have happily taken my fees. I do intend to respond.[/b]

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='ash' post='1233362' date='May 16 2011, 06:12 PM']I have not seen your instrument but if it is shaped anything like our
instruments- head, body, pickguard, pickups, logo plate- it would be
covered by a variety of U.S. and E.C. trademark registrations. A number of
John Birch instruments I have seen in the past infringe these rights and
[b]sale of them would be unlawful.[/b]

[b]It doesn’t matter when or where it was made nor where you reside.[/b]

Should you require further advice, I would refer you to any one of the
qualified IP lawyers you have there in the U.K.[/quote]

This bit isn't true, laws are specific to countries, and they are what make things illegal. The is no law against selling something that looks a bit like something else here, if you aren't passing it off, or selling it as a means to make copies. I am legally qualified, and IP was my strongest subject, although I'm not a lawyer. We faker fans should have a whip round to get a letter from a proper IP Lawyer, it won't cost loads, anyone know one/is one?

[BigRedX]

So basically eBay removed your two most recent listings (the one showing just the bridge and the one with no photos at all) based on the fact that the previous times you had listed a John Birch Bass Guitar it was a Rickenbacker design.

Would be interesting to see what would happen if you were able to get hold of an EB design John Birch Bass and list that with a set of ambiguous photos that neither confirmed or denied that it was not Rickenbacker shaped.

[ash]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1233392' date='May 16 2011, 06:33 PM']This bit isn't true, laws are specific to countries, and they are what make things illegal. The is no law against selling something that looks a bit like something else here, if you aren't passing it off, or selling it as a means to make copies. I am legally qualified, and IP was my strongest subject, although I'm not a lawyer. We faker fans should have a whip round to get a letter from a proper IP Lawyer, it won't cost loads, anyone know one/is one?[/quote]

Now that [i]would[/i] be interesting!

[Mr. Foxen]

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Shine-RK2000NT-Bass-guitar-/290566573838?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item43a71e0f0e"]Shine.[/url]

[The Twickerman]

[quote name='ash' post='1233362' date='May 16 2011, 06:12 PM'][b]I'm actually quite pleased that they bothered to get in touch to clarify things, it also shows the extent that the Rickenbacker company goes to protect it's identifiable trademarks. Whether we agree with them or not it shows some determination! It still however seems a little harsh to me that as a private seller I have been penalised by restrictions placed upon my account, especially given the current level of blatant rickenfakery going on these days. The double standards by which ebay continues to operate never ceases to amaze me. Without doubt if my bass had passed Rickenbacker's scrutiny eBay would have happily taken my fees. I do intend to respond.[/b][/quote]

I am very impressed that John replied in such detail. That shows some degree of integrity. Yes - we know that he's over-stating the juristiction of US patent laws, but you've got to admire the effort he puts into defending his company's IP. Now, if only he put in as much effort into getting the production line running and designing some new instruments....

[Maverick]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1231254' date='May 14 2011, 07:11 PM']The IP thing applies worldwide, but the law that makes it doesn't, wherever something is, it breaches the IP of RIC on US soil, meaning it can't go across the border, so possibly if you are offering worldwide shipping, they have something, and you need to put a 'will not ship to (which is an option).[/quote]
[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1233392' date='May 16 2011, 06:33 PM']This bit isn't true, laws are specific to countries, and they are what make things illegal. The is no law against selling something that looks a bit like something else here, if you aren't passing it off, or selling it as a means to make copies. I am legally qualified, and IP was my strongest subject, although I'm not a lawyer. We faker fans should have a whip round to get a letter from a proper IP Lawyer, it won't cost loads, anyone know one/is one?[/quote]

Could it be down to the fact that eBay is a US company and by facilitating sales of Rickenfakers anywhere in the world could open themselves up to a lawsuit in the US by Rick? Therefore it's easiest just to adopt a blanket policy against it.

[Big_Stu]

Can't believe the hypocrisy of Ebay - isn't that where you got it from? - and if they're so red-hot on catching copies how come they let this one go?
[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rickenbacker-Bass-Model-guitar-/280678029736?_trksid=p4340.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%252BFICS%26otn%3D8%26pmod%3D300556179208%252B300556179208%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D9220574893862058503"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rickenbacker-Bass-Mo...574893862058503[/url]

I was once shot down in flames - but it was worth it ......... when I pointed out on Rickresource that any JB bass is far superior in built quality than any original Rick. And since JB pioneered the straight thru neck I'm wondering who copied who.
[url="http://vintage.catalogs.free.fr/johnbirch.pdf"]http://vintage.catalogs.free.fr/johnbirch.pdf[/url]

Edited May 17, 2011 by Big_Stu

[Musky]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='1234821' date='May 17 2011, 08:17 PM']Can't believe the hypocrisy of Ebay - isn't that where you got it from? - and if they're so red-hot on catching copies how come they let this one go?
[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rickenbacker-Bass-Model-guitar-/280678029736?_trksid=p4340.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%252BFICS%26otn%3D8%26pmod%3D300556179208%252B300556179208%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D9220574893862058503"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rickenbacker-Bass-Mo...574893862058503[/url][/quote]

Because it's a miniature copy of a Hofner?

[quote]I was once shot down in flames - but it was worth it ......... when I pointed out on Rickresource that any JB bass is far superior in built quality than any original Rick. And since JB pioneered the straight thru neck I'm wondering who copied who.
[url="http://vintage.catalogs.free.fr/johnbirch.pdf"]http://vintage.catalogs.free.fr/johnbirch.pdf[/url][/quote]
The catalogue isn't claiming that JB invented the through neck (which he didn't), but the first one piece rock maple through neck. Rick necks are 5 piece laminates.

[ash]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='1234821' date='May 17 2011, 08:17 PM']Can't believe the hypocrisy of Ebay - isn't that where you got it from? - and if they're so red-hot on catching copies how come they let this one go?
[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rickenbacker-Bass-Model-guitar-/280678029736?_trksid=p4340.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%252BFICS%26otn%3D8%26pmod%3D300556179208%252B300556179208%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D9220574893862058503"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rickenbacker-Bass-Mo...574893862058503[/url]

I was once shot down in flames - but it was worth it ......... when I pointed out on Rickresource that any JB bass is far superior in built quality than any original Rick. And since JB pioneered the straight thru neck I'm wondering who copied who.
[url="http://vintage.catalogs.free.fr/johnbirch.pdf"]http://vintage.catalogs.free.fr/johnbirch.pdf[/url][/quote]

Yes you are correct I did buy it off eBay and the original ad had lot's of implied 'R word' references. You've got to admire John Hall's determination but eBay? They just get worse, the amount of people selling fake Fenders is beyond belief, you spot them everyday, the very fact is I was selling my JB as a JB and nothing else that's why I have dug my heels in over this.

[LukeFRC]

well the only comment i have to this is that ash's bass looks rather nice, and i dont really like the look of rickys!

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Musky' post='1234849' date='May 17 2011, 08:36 PM']The catalogue isn't claiming that JB invented the through neck (which he didn't), but the first one piece rock maple through neck. Rick necks are 5 piece laminates.[/quote]

True, but he was building his own guitars since WW2, & having spoken to many of his ex-colleagues I can assure you he was one of the first to make it routine & unless spec'd otherwise always built them neck thru when he went commercial (the WW2 was for his own use) I've seen dozens of JBs & only two were bolted necks, one being a Strat copy, & only one set-neck.

[quote name='Musky' post='1234849' date='May 17 2011, 08:36 PM']Because it's a miniature copy of a Hofner?[/quote]
Pedant alert!
Yes - obviously - but my point was that J Hall will pounce even for using the Rick word (as he said himself in his quoted email) regardless of what it's attached to.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='ash' post='1234853' date='May 17 2011, 08:37 PM']Yes you are correct I did buy it off eBay and the original ad had lot's of implied 'R word' references. You've got to admire John Hall's determination but eBay? They just get worse, the amount of people selling fake Fenders is beyond belief, you spot them everyday, the very fact is I was selling my JB as a JB and nothing else that's why I have dug my heels in over this.[/quote]
And quite right too, if I had the spare funds I'd snatch your hand off. Unfortunately you're fighting two huge corprorations, in cahoots with each other while it suits them.

[BigAlonBass]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1233893' date='May 17 2011, 07:14 AM'][url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Shine-RK2000NT-Bass-guitar-/290566573838?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item43a71e0f0e"]Shine.[/url][/quote]
Mr Hall seems to be really digging his heels in now. Removed for "breach of eBay Policy".

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='1235229' date='May 18 2011, 09:08 AM']And quite right too, if I had the spare funds I'd snatch your hand off. Unfortunately you're fighting two huge corprorations, in cahoots with each other while it suits them.[/quote]

RIC is a tiny corporation. That is why the man himself is replying. That is why not that many people putting some effort in can make things a real pain in the ass for them if they want to be dicks about it. This weekend is free listing, send around pics of your bass to everyone and we can all list it. Maybe he'll have a nervous breakdown.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Mr. Foxen

[ash]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1236002' date='May 18 2011, 05:22 PM']RIC is a tiny corporation. That is why the man himself is replying. That is why not that many people putting some effort in can make things a real pain in the ass for them if they want to be dicks about it. This weekend is free listing, send around pics of your bass to everyone and we can all list it. Maybe he'll have a nervous breakdown.[/quote]


Sadly I can't list anything as punishment they have barred me from selling....

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='ash' post='1236020' date='May 18 2011, 05:32 PM']Sadly I can't list anything as punishment they have barred me from selling.... [/quote]

I can still sell, and so can just about everyone else, that is the ideal, we all list your bass, optimistic price, so should be trouble with more than one selling (if one does sell, win for you).

[quote name='Johnston' post='1236025' date='May 18 2011, 05:37 PM']Edit: Actually thinking about it I have a collection of PDF templates but as yet never found a Ricky one. I have seen a number of posts on other forums of folks looking the same.

Any one with a ricky, measuring stick and good enough with software to do one up . :brow: Now that would piss him off [/quote]

That would be supplying the means to counterfeit and would be illegal under UK law, so pulling those would be fair.

[Musky]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='1235226' date='May 18 2011, 09:06 AM']Pedant alert!
Yes - obviously - but my point was that J Hall will pounce even for using the Rick word (as he said himself in his quoted email) regardless of what it's attached to.[/quote]
Guilty as charged!

Sorry.

[Big_Stu]

Hey Bud!

Who ME?

Ssssh! riiiiiiight, d'you wanna buy a Ricky Piccy??



A Ricky Piccy, Me?

Riiiiiiight

[ash]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='1236388' date='May 18 2011, 10:17 PM']Hey Bud!

Who ME?

Ssssh! riiiiiiight, d'you wanna buy a Ricky Piccy??



A Ricky Piccy, Me?

Riiiiiiight

[/quote]

Ha! Ha!....love it!
[attachment=80337:muppet_pimps.jpg]