Bassassin Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 [quote name='Johnston' post='1005832' date='Oct 29 2010, 10:04 PM']Ok read what I said I said the Link is [b]they are from the same factory[/b]. Not that they are or ever were Tokai or made for tokai just that they come from the same factory as some Tokais. Add that to what else I said in the [b]PM's[/b] and you can see where people are adding the 2+2. Including the bass centre.[/quote] That sir, is a fair point, and well made. I apologise for my rampant conclusion-vaulting and will depart forthwith to stuff my gob with humble pie. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 This is interesting: [url="http://www.macbookscreen.co.uk/Rockinbetter.html"]http://www.macbookscreen.co.uk/Rockinbetter.html[/url] [url="http://www.rockinbetter.co.uk"]And so is where that Rockinbetter URL takes you![/url] Anyway - can't help too much with the Shine, having never seen one in the flesh - not sure if Shine have UK distribution at the moment, as there's nothing at all on the Shine.co.uk website. This is on the Korean site: [url="http://www.saein.co.kr/2007/bass/rk2000nt.php"]http://www.saein.co.kr/2007/bass/rk2000nt.php[/url] With the the strange headstock, extra frets & SD pups it's cosmetically a lot less accurate than the current Rockinbetter, but I have seen pics of these with the "proper" headstock shape too. The extra frets are down to the design of the bridge, which places the saddles where the string mute would be on a Rick tailpiece - on the Rockinbetter they've compensated for this by elongating the body so the bridge sits further back. Can't help thinking that must make a big difference to the sound, considering how much it affects the pickup placement relative to the bridge. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Mr ProBass/Bassbadger imports his own line himself, as far as I know, and I'd be prepared to bet is doing the exact same thing with the Rockinbetters - which would imply they leave the factory badged like that. It also seems likely that his Probass & Retrovibes come from the same source, too. Dunno how naughty it is, apart from infringing RIC's (US) trademark - which anyone selling a Faker is technically doing, anyway. If you're looking at just distributing a line of 4001/4003 copies it might be worth trying to cut out going through an importer & do the same as him - it's actually something I've given some thought to. Wouldn't be Rick copies for me, though. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 [quote name='Johnston' post='1006362' date='Oct 30 2010, 03:23 PM']Two totally different factories making them and put sticking the same name on them ???[/quote] The Dillion doesn't actually say Rockinbetter, though - that's presumably just their name for it and nothing to do with the factory. And they're plainly from different sources - there are a lot of differences, none of which favour the Dillion. Tokai have used Korean factories since the 90s so it's possible the Dillion's from a factory that's also made Tokai brand guitars - but as far as I know there's never been any implication that their Rockinbetter's a Tokai! What's interesting is that apart from the headstock, the Dillion's identical to the Indie Rick copy. I tried one of these at Music Live about 5 years ago & have to say I was massively underwhelmed, considering the £500 price tag. I had a bit of a chat with the main guy from Indie at the same time - he reckoned changing the headstock shape was enough to keep RIC off their backs. Plainly that demonstrates a failure to grasp the nature of US trademark law - but the bottom line is that I think you're right. RIC is, despite its image & reputation, a small family-owned company and it's highly unlikely they have the resources to tackle trademark infringement outside the US - they barely have coherent distribution in Europe! It's probably not as important either - in the US they have to go after infringements if they want to retain ownership & exclusivity of their designs. It's not necessarily the same - or as important - elsewhere. I can understand there might be a number of issues with importing, but presumably the ProBass guy only brings them in a few at a time, so it must be possible to find a supplier who will deal in small quantities. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 [quote name='Johnston' post='1005832' date='Oct 29 2010, 09:04 PM']Ok read what I said I said the Link is [b]they are from the same factory[/b]. Not that they are or ever were Tokai or made for tokai just that they come from the same factory as some Tokais. Add that to what else I said in the [b]PM's[/b] and you can see where people are adding the 2+2. Including the bass centre.[/quote] I'm still not convinced that this has any merit... 1. The people telling you this have a vested interest in "bigging up" the reputation of the Rockinbetter basses by associating them (tenuously) with the Tokai brand. They know that none of us are going to be jetting out to the far east any time soon to check the veracity of these claims. Also I personally wouldn't trust the Bass Centre to tell me the time of day. 2. The instruments that Tokai have built their reputation on are all made in Japan. The general opinion is that the Korean Tokais are not anywhere in the same league, and I can't imagine that the output of a Chinese factory is going to be any better (and will probably be even lower quality). 3. If there is a Chinese factory building instruments for Tokai and the Rockinbetters are being made in the same place, then all we can say for sure is that the same CNC machine might be used to shape the necks and bodies and some of the same worker drones may be employed for the assembly and finishing of the instruments. My understanding of the way the Korean and Chinese guitar factories function is they simply build instruments to the spec of the customer, commissioning that particular production run. These factories produce instruments for lots of different brands/customers. The things that set the different production runs apart is the original build specifications and the quality control standards supplied by the customer. Unless it can be proved that the original build specifications and the quality control is provided by Tokai Gakki then to say that Rockinbetters are made at the same factory doesn't automatically bestow upon them any of the qualities of a Tokai branded instrument. Using this argument it could be said that any P or J style instrument coming out of the factories that also make Squiers is essentially a Squier, but no one would be so foolish as to try and promote that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tino Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 [quote name='Johnston' post='1006362' date='Oct 30 2010, 02:23 PM']We thought about it but dunno if the NI market would big enough for a boat load of rick copies Plus mentioning importing to the Agencies helping has the sucking of teeth and head shaking reactions. As for the RIC copyright does it matter anywhere outside the US. I have heard differing opinions regarding that and that's how the Canadian Dillion manages to offer up there Rockinbetter being in Canada yer man can't do nowt but send letters. That bit seems to made more complicated because there is an American Dillion too no relation too the Canadian one. Although just nosing the Rockinbetter that is supposedly from the same factory as tokai and the probass one claims to be Chinese with Korean hardware [url="http://www.jsdguitarshack.com/dillion_guitars/dillion_rockinbetter_bass.html"]Dillion Canada[/url] Claims to be made in Korea. Two totally different factories making them and put sticking the same name on them ???[/quote] [url="http://cgi.ebay.com/EL-MAYA-ELECTRIC-BASS-GUITAR-RARE-70S-VINTAGE-SUPER-/270654737153?pt=Guitar&hash=item3f04478b01"]http://cgi.ebay.com/EL-MAYA-ELECTRIC-BASS-...=item3f04478b01[/url] over the pond but these aint half bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 [quote name='BigRedX' post='1007440' date='Oct 31 2010, 04:08 PM']1. The people telling you this have a vested interest in "bigging up" the reputation of the Rockinbetter basses by associating them (tenuously) with the Tokai brand. They know that none of us are going to be jetting out to the far east any time soon to check the veracity of these claims. Also I personally wouldn't trust the Bass Centre to tell me the time of day.[/quote] I emailed Tokai UK to check out the veractiy of these claims. They gave me a clear answer. Rockinbetter is nothing to do with Tokai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 [quote name='Johnston' post='1007498' date='Oct 31 2010, 05:11 PM']For your point three Exactly and thats how I would look at it too. . Although I would say those things that need a human touch such as the fret dressing and quality of solder joints should be on par unless one is purposefully rushed and accepted QC levels are purposefully lower. Or of course they have lesser experienced folk on lesser pay doing a cheaper job for some brands.[/quote] I read somewhere that at one point the Rockbasses were being built at the same factory that was producing some Warwick branded instruments. For the Warwicks, several hours of labour was spent on finishing including frets. For the Rockbasses, about 30 minutes. I may have my details wrong here, but the general concept applies. Allocate more time to a job, and a better job can be done. Even if the person doing the job is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 [quote name='Johnston' post='1007498' date='Oct 31 2010, 04:11 PM']For point one if you're going to big up a brand would you not suggest it comes from the factory that does the more expensive instruments??[/quote] IIRC there are laws for the EU about identifying the country of manufacture of imports. Therefore it's a less dodgy to claim that the Rockinbetters are made in the same factory as the lowest quality Tokai instruments rather than taking off all those Made in China stickers and replacing them with Made in Korea or Made in Japan. AFAIAC the great Tokai instruments that built the reputation of the brand are made in Japan. The none Japanese Tokais are simply more far eastern copy instruments with few of the qualities of the originals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 [quote name='Annoying Twit' post='1008307' date='Nov 1 2010, 11:12 AM']I emailed Tokai UK to check out the veractiy of these claims. They gave me a clear answer. Rockinbetter is nothing to do with Tokai.[/quote] Thanks for finally clearing this up, Ross - it's good to get an answer from the horse's mouth as it were. And to be vindicated, of course. I suppose what's interesting now, is whether the person Johnston's dealing with and Tokai UK are the same... J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bosozoku Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 [url="http://cgi.ebay.com/Rickenbacker-4003-Bass-Fire-Glo-Brand-New-Factory-/150513858146?pt=Guitar&hash=item230b533662"]eBay: Potential Fraud[/url] Heads up...this listing is suspicious. The seller is in Nevada, USA, however the bass will ship from 'Outside the United States'. The photos are the same ones on a well-known Chinese wholesale counterfeit site...not to mention the misspelling of words in the auction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Twickerman Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 [quote name='bosozoku' post='1009239' date='Nov 2 2010, 07:00 AM'][url="http://cgi.ebay.com/Rickenbacker-4003-Bass-Fire-Glo-Brand-New-Factory-/150513858146?pt=Guitar&hash=item230b533662"]eBay: Potential Fraud[/url] Heads up...this listing is suspicious. The seller is in Nevada, USA, however the bass will ship from 'Outside the United States'. The photos are the same ones on a well-known Chinese wholesale counterfeit site...not to mention the misspelling of words in the auction.[/quote] Maybe ask for the serial number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 [quote name='bosozoku' post='1009239' date='Nov 2 2010, 06:00 AM'][url="http://cgi.ebay.com/Rickenbacker-4003-Bass-Fire-Glo-Brand-New-Factory-/150513858146?pt=Guitar&hash=item230b533662"]eBay: Potential Fraud[/url] Heads up...this listing is suspicious. The seller is in Nevada, USA, however the bass will ship from 'Outside the United States'. The photos are the same ones on a well-known Chinese wholesale counterfeit site...not to mention the misspelling of words in the auction.[/quote] Also the bass in the pics isn't "brand new factory" - new Ricks have had full-width inlays for the last 2 or 3 years. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bosozoku Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 [quote name='The Twickerman' post='1009261' date='Nov 2 2010, 01:53 AM']Maybe ask for the serial number?[/quote] Yeah, hopefully the winning bidder will investigate it before getting scammed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 Which Ric copies would (in the opinion of those out there who have tried them) is the nearest to an original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 [quote name='daz' post='1010321' date='Nov 3 2010, 07:36 AM']Which Ric copies would (in the opinion of those out there who have tried them) is the nearest to an original.[/quote] Looks-wise, the Matsumoku through necks. With a Rickenbacker TRC they're close enough to fool some owners that they're genuine Ricks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 [quote name='Musky' post='1010333' date='Nov 3 2010, 07:57 AM']Looks-wise, the Matsumoku through necks. With a Rickenbacker TRC they're close enough to fool some owners that they're genuine Ricks.[/quote] +1 on this, the only thing that lets them down is the crappy bridge pup, designed to be hidden under a cover, so looks nothing like a real one. Very few of them turn up with the original unit fitted so I don't think they were reliable, either. The Mat copies (mostly branded Aria, Aria Pro, Kimbara in the UK, Greco, Univox, Electra etc elsewhere) are the most accurate Fakers I've seen, down to the twin truss rods. Based on a 73/74 4001 they have a toaster pup & accurate (and more reliable) copies of the rare "Wavy Grover" tuners. Like Musky says, many of these ended up with real Rick trcs and have spent decades being bought & sold as genuine - I have one that did! You need to be very anal about Rickenbackers & copies to spot the differences with these, but there are giveaways - fretboard wood's too dark, inlays are too pearly, truss adjusters are allens rather than nuts. Also the scale's 34" rather than the Rick 33 1/4", plus the routing for the neck pup cable is smooth, rather than the series of press-drill holes in old Ricks - Matsumoku apparently pioneered the use of CNC routers for guitar manufacture. These are also the rarest Jap copies, certainly in the UK, maybe because most of them are living a cosseted double-life as genuine Rickenbackers! J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Indie-Bass-Guitar-Rickenbacker-/120642590525?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item1c16dbd73d"]Indie with bizarre finish.[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kays-Bass-Guitar-/220692001666?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item336244b382"]This Kay is American made apparently.[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1011374' date='Nov 3 2010, 09:28 PM'][url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kays-Bass-Guitar-/220692001666?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item336244b382"]This Kay is American made apparently.[/url][/quote] Well that's going to be a pisser for the seller when whoever buys it reads the little silver label under the neck plate. That's where it gives you the model number, and says MADE IN TAIWAN. I quite like the MOTO Indie in principle. Should have a plain scratchplate though. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1010889' date='Nov 3 2010, 03:15 PM'][url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Indie-Bass-Guitar-Rickenbacker-/120642590525?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item1c16dbd73d"]Indie with bizarre finish.[/url][/quote] If you put it down on a kitchen worktop, you'll never find it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ibanez-Law-suit-Bass-Rick-copy-/200540762141?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item2eb129301d"]"Ibanez" with added historical revisionism.[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1016302' date='Nov 8 2010, 01:13 PM'][url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ibanez-Law-suit-Bass-Rick-copy-/200540762141?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item2eb129301d"]"Ibanez" with added historical revisionism.[/url][/quote] That was funny. Clearly I have too much time on my hands today: [quote]I'm intrigued to know how you identify this bass as an Ibanez, since it apparently bears no maker's name. Your information is interesting but incorrect - Peter Hook played a Hondo Rick copy (this is well documented) and Hondo was a Korean low-end brand, built in the Samick factory. Ibanez 4001 copies were built by Fujigen Gakki in Japan and differ quite drastically from yours - they all feature checquered edge binding, and earlier versions have quite different pickups & inlays. A 1977/8 Ibanez will have a neck plate stamped with a serial number & Made In Japan - does yours? If so it would be a good idea to picture it in your listing. Unfortunately however yours looks to me like the model played by Hooky - a Korean-made Hondo. If it has a plain neckplate and the plywood construction is visible on the body edges, then that's exactly what it is. Best of luck - Jon.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 Of course, even the horrible Hondo's reach in excess of £300 in auction, so it isn't like his price is totally nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 You're right, of course. It's the kneejerk bullsh!t I can't stand though. Here's a rather nice Aria Pro II bolt-neck c/w undisclosed reserve to make it all better. [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270660581854"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...em=270660581854[/url] J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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