Where are the budget range valve amps for bass?

[Naetharu]

Hi folks,

Before picking up bass as my main instrument I spent some time playing guitar. Now what has really surprised me since making the change to bass is just how different the range of amps are. Guitar stuff seems to be all about valve these days, and even very cheap stuff contains some valve tech for the most part.

For example, I have a Blackstar practice combo (sub £200) that is valve based, and a VOX amp (£450ish) which is pure valve. By comparison I cannot seem to find a bass amp that is pure valve anywhere under around £1200 and most are closer to the £2000 mark or more. I know there are a few amps with valve pre-amp sections that come in a little cheaper, but none-the-less it really surprises me how different the range of amps on offer is between guitar and bass.

So I guess my question is why is this the case? Do bassists not really enjoy valve amps as much? Is there a good reason for Solid State bass amps that does not apply to guitar? Or perhaps have we just not caught up with guitar amps in being able to produce quality valve heads at a reasonable budget?

Just curiosity on my part really I guess. Any insight would be appreciated.

All the best

James

[Merton]

Behringer?

[LukeFRC]

From my understanding the physical cost of transformers and bits of a 200w valve amp is higher than a 5w guitar valve amp - plus where's the demand? The way the bass amp "sounds" isn't quite as crucial to tone as it is in guitars - plus I could buy a solid state amp that fits in my gig bag...

[Naetharu]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1442990548' post='2871101']
From my understanding the physical cost of transformers and bits of a 200w valve amp is higher than a 5w guitar valve amp - plus where's the demand?
[/quote]

Perhaps, though companies like Marshall make 100-watt valve heads that retail around the £600 mark so I doubt it can be that only. As to the demand, I guess that is part of my question. Is it the case that valve amps just don't work as well for bass, do bassists have needs that make SS amps better or is it just a case of that is the way it is and so we are content with the options we have.

[Truckstop]

Guitarists want heavily coloured tone, bassists not so much. This is why bassist like lots and lots of power because you can reach higher volumes without distortion occurring.

This is also why bass speakers are specially built. They can handle a lot more noise before distorting. Guitar speakers will break up at very low volumes.

Lots and lots of power ends up being very expensive and heavy which makes it unattractive for obvious reasons. SS and Class D technology means you can get all the clean power without the expense, size or weight of valves.

Lots of bassists do like valve tone but I think it's a bit of a niche market now with most amps being vintage and/or second hand. Most large manufacturers do make all valve heads but as you've found out they tend to be at quite a high price point.

[LewisK1975]

I think it's more a case of demand - Valve bass amps (and their associated cabs, 8x10's etc) have always been very large and very heavy. Whereas a 100-watt valve guitar combo could conceivably go on the passenger front seat of your car, and be a 1-hand carry.

This is why small and light class-D amps are now so popular for Bass, and that's why the big Bass amp manufacturers are making them - because they are selling well at the moment.

I've no doubt that if small and light amps had never been invented - and therefore valve amps were still the only amps available, there'd be cheaper stuff around from the big manufacturers.

It's also a case of being able to market them as 'classics' etc and then charge more. There'll always be a market for some guys who no matter how technology moves on - will always want 'old school' stuff because they prefer it. Each to their own.

All of this is of course IMHO!! Please don't let this one turn into another Valve vs SS vs Class-D argument!! I think the OP poses an interesting question...

[fretmeister]

I reckon it's demand mostly.

As much as many bassists would love an Ampeg Heritage SVT the damn thing weighs 84lb

Bassists grabbed the Neo / lightweight tech with both hands and although some of us like to see a preamp valve or 2 none of us enjoy carrying around a massive and heavy valve head.

I did have the Mesa Prodigy for a while which is probably one of the smallest bass all valve amps. It was great, but expensive.

Maybe Behringer will have a go at making a tribute - and perhaps put a quieter fan in it!

[Lw.]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1442990548' post='2871101']
From my understanding the physical cost of transformers and bits of a 200w valve amp is higher than a 5w guitar valve amp
[/quote]

From what I can tell it's this, plus probably the ridiculous weight of the things. I'd love an all valve amp as I do really like their tone & it's frustrating being in a band with two guitarists both having decent quality all valve heads that cost less than £500 but that's just the way things are. It's not like the amp companies are charging bassist double the price for a laugh - it'll be reflected in their costs.

You could always try that Bugera one but otherwise I think I'll be saving for one of the more recognised sources.

[JamesBass]

I had an all valve head in my Ashdown CTM 300, absolutely amazing amp, the tone was modern yet vintage, but the head alone was topping 35kg, and my 410 was topping 40kg. While I'm a young and relatively fit guy, I struggled to move my rig down my stairs, in to my car, out my car in to a venue, sometimes up steadily narrow stairs, and then repeat in reverse. Doing that once a week was a pain, let alone doing 3 or 4 times a week!

I've since realised/discovered that I can get near on the same tone from an amp that weighs 2 kg and a cab that weighs 20kg. And as a combined rig comes in at less than half the price of just my old CTM head.

[fretmeister]

Aye.

I just got a Barefaced One-10

It's 16lb. I will shortly be getting a Tecamp Puma 300 to sit on top of it. The head is 2.2lb.

Ok - it won't compete with a raging drummer unless there is a full PA to do the heavy work (I have a pair of Berg cabs for that) but for the jazz / big band / orchestra stuff I play mostly it's a perfect rig for a total weight of 18.2lb

Grit from a pedal if needed. Brilliant DI on the head if there is a PA - leaving the little rig to just be personal monitoring.

Lovely.

[Lozz196]

Well there`s that Bugera (posh Behringer) that has been posted about. Something like a few hundred pounds, and apparently rather good.

I`m in the same boat really, love the valve tone, can`t lift the valve amps. So as near as I can get is an Ampeg SVT3-PRO, and have to say it`s a good compromise. It really does have some "size/heft" to the tone.

[tonewheels]

It's pretty easy to apply modern production techniques to lowish power guitar amps to keep costs down. SMD components, through hole valve bases, even through hole transformers. And contract the work to Far East sweatshops. When it comes to the bass market though, we're talking 100 to 200 watts. Cost of the transformers and choke - about £250 (and necessarily heavy). cost of a decent set of valves - over a £100. PCBs can't reliably support transformers or octal sockets so at least 10 hours wiring and mechanical assembly at £30 an hour. Chassis, case and passives at least £150. Then there's design, admin, packing, dealing with morons overhead. So COSTS come to something like a grand. And then there's retailers' margins. And bass players are demanding a product for between £1200 and £2000. Anyone who's capable of designing and marketing a bass amp can get a far better income by other means.

Yes manufacturers like M*rsh*ll ( can't bring myself to type it) can churn out product cheaply but at the expense of manufacturing integrity and morality. All too often, their "valve" flagships are actually anything but. Check out the JCM900 schematics. Actually two solid state fuzzboxes with a valve power section. And, bloody hell, they sounded like it.

[Dad3353]

For bass, I'm looking for clean headroom. My Hiwatt 200w valve amp, with 4 x KT88s, does this. A less powerful valve amp, or most guitar valve amps, won't do this (I tried a Peavey guitar head once; I'll not do that again...). To get clean valve headroom, a couple of EL84s won't do it, so what works for an AC30 doesn't work for bass, or at least, the clean tone I want from an amp. SS amps can do the job, but only if we 'up' the power rating, and thus more expensive cabs able to handle the watts. Typically, a guitarist will be looking, in an all-valve amp, to 'bend' the o/p stage valves. For bass, I don't want this at all. The price to pay is big bottles, with big transformers, which means heavy and expensive. So be it. I could have chosen to play the harmonica.
Subject to completion, correction and/or contradiction from others.

[Phil Starr]

Like most things musical it is down to both taste and physics. Play a bass straight through a flat system like the PA and it sounds OK. Play electric guitar through the PA with no FX and it sounds very ordinary to say the least https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8dZwXnMrRU

The technical side is simple. We don't hear bass well and loudspeakers are very inefficient at turning electricity into sound at bass frequencies. Simply you need to move a lot of air. An AC30 is bloody loud a 30W bass amp is a practice amp. Roughly speaking you are going to need at least 10dB more power which is 10x as much. You might get away with 15 or 20W of valve guitar amp through a loud driver at a pub gig but this translates to 150-200W of bass amp.

A 200W transformer is heavy, two of them in each valve amp. High power valves like KT88's are expensive and you'll need at least four. If you want a clean uncompressed bass sound you'd want some headroom too so that means either really efficient and large speakers (8x10's?) or 400W+ amps.

You need lots of thick copper wire to make a transformer so weight saving is difficult. Toroidals are lighter but there is a bottom limit. You could use a switch mode power supply (I suppose theoretically you could use a switch mode output conversion if you wanted to lose the valve sound, but what would be the point. ) Valves will always be more expensive to manufacture than solid state devices and so there is a limit to how much you could shave off the prices, no-one is going to start to mass produce them again. There isn't a cheap lightweight way of making a 200W valve amp I'm afraid, and there never will be.

[Naetharu]

Cheers folks, that has been really interesting. It seems that there are some really good reasons for the way things here. It was just a big surprise for me when I moved across to bass to find that, while superficially similar, there are so many differences between bass and guitar amps that I had to start learning from scratch again.

I also get the weight issue now I just had my first band practice in a room that was up a set of old winding stairs. I have to say I was rather chuffed with my little class-D stuffed into my backpack at that point

[fretmeister]

I suppose there is this

http://www.hotoneaudio.com/products/nanolegacy/74.html

It sounds pretty good too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=3&v=uKgbOp6Gd5g

[VTypeV4]

My old Ashton BV was excellent especially considering it was a budget item.. Sold to Dave Hux on here and he loves it too.

[Bigwan]

I just bought a brand new Ashdown CTM30 for 300 quid delivered. A lucky find - listed on eBay Italy as B stock but had never been out of the box.

This has no bearing on this thread, I just had to tell somebody! I notice the same seller has another listed...

[skidder652003]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1443084591' post='2871989']
I suppose there is this

[url="http://www.hotoneaudio.com/products/nanolegacy/74.html"]http://www.hotoneaud...olegacy/74.html[/url]

It sounds pretty good too

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=3&v=uKgbOp6Gd5g"]http://www.youtube.c...3&v=uKgbOp6Gd5g[/url]
[/quote]

so I was about to blindly diss this and then I heard the youtube clips and now i totally want one...thanks....

[fretmeister]

It would look perfect on my Barefaced One10!

[cameltoe]

I've wondered this, and having had a lovely time with my old Ashdown Little B******, but not quite cutting it for volume, if I could find a valve head that I could gig with for £500ish I'd be all over it.

[Sparky Mark]

Have a (serious ) look at the Bugera BVV3000 Infinium. All valve 300 watts and auto bias of output valves.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1443057150' post='2871902']
For bass, I'm looking for clean headroom. My Hiwatt 200w valve amp, with 4 x KT88s, does this. A less powerful valve amp, or most guitar valve amps, won't do this (I tried a Peavey guitar head once; I'll not do that again...). To get clean valve headroom, a couple of EL84s won't do it, so what works for an AC30 doesn't work for bass, or at least, the clean tone I want from an amp. SS amps can do the job, but only if we 'up' the power rating, and thus more expensive cabs able to handle the watts. Typically, a guitarist will be looking, in an all-valve amp, to 'bend' the o/p stage valves. For bass, I don't want this at all. The price to pay is big bottles, with big transformers, which means heavy and expensive. So be it. I could have chosen to play the harmonica.
Subject to completion, correction and/or contradiction from others.
[/quote]

This.

Bass is power. Powerful valve amps are heavy and expensive because valves are not efficient, (and as already stated) there's low demand and they're expensive to mass produce for that demand.

100-200w amps are around and reasonable cost. Think Fender Bassman (135w), Mesa Boogie Buster combo (200w), Marshall Superbass (100w), Matamp if you can find them, Soundcity heads (120-200w). Above that, Mesa Boogie Bass 400+ heads are fantastic and can be had for between £600-1000 depending on whether you import from the US or not. Otherwise you won't get much change from £1200.

Besides which, unless someone is playing large venues, the low end from valve heads tends to be overwhelming for small venues...in my experience at least.

[dave74200]

My humble opinion is; an all valve head gives you something that nothing else can. I've owned loads of amps and have now come back to an all valve SVT head because it gives the best tone and power of them all. Yes it's heavy and expensive, but for me, it's worth every penny, and every effort in picking it up! Although amps like Bass Terrors and effects like Tech 21 do a good job, they're (for me) still an impersonation, rather than the real deal.

[Dan Dare]

The words budget and valve tend not to work together. As others say, high quality output trannies aren't cheap and 6L6s, 6550s can be £40 a pop. I'd go the valve pre/transistor power route.