Does one become conditioned to a certain sized speaker

[obbm]

Today's Cab Shoot Out at the SE Bass Bash got me wondering if one gets conditioned to certain sized speakers. For some years now I have used cabs with 12" speakers, I have briefly deviated to 10", 15" and even 5" but I always find that the sound that pleases me most comes from 12" drivers and I invariably return to using them. Have I become conditioned to 12" and unable to accept anything else or is it something more fundamental in their sonic characteristics?

[Lozz196]

I know what you mean Dave, although there isn`t meant to be a "sound" attached to speaker sizes I invariably find my fave sound when hearing other people play is a stack of 10s - usually a 410 being the minimum, most often the 810, or as today, a 410/210 stack.

[discreet]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1443303047' post='2873793']
...although there isn`t meant to be a "sound" attached to speaker sizes I invariably find my fave sound when hearing other people play is a stack of 10s...
[/quote]

Totally agree, loved the 10s cabs available at recent auditions - though I find myself using 12s more often than not. I wonder if there is actually a technical reason for the 10s preference?

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1443305277' post='2873806']


Totally agree, loved the 10s cabs available at recent auditions - though I find myself using 12s more often than not. I wonder if there is actually a technical reason for the 10s preference?
[/quote]
There is a bit of a myth on Basschat about the sound of different speaker sizes. That size doesn't matter. It can do and often does but it is possible to get round this.

Speaker design is about choosing compromises. You can make a 10 go deep but you will have to compromise other things. Manufacturers tend to come up with similar solutions so their offerings tend to sound similar to each other, but they don't have to.

One particular manufacturer on here has said you shouldn't make assumptions about sound based on size alone, and that is fair if you set out to do something different. It's a long way from this to say that size has no effect on sound.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1443338849' post='2873869']
There is a bit of a myth on Basschat about the sound of different speaker sizes. That size doesn't matter. It can do and often does but it is possible to get round this.

Speaker design is about choosing compromises. You can make a 10 go deep but you will have to compromise other things. Manufacturers tend to come up with similar solutions so their offerings tend to sound similar to each other, but they don't have to.

One particular manufacturer on here has said you shouldn't make assumptions about sound based on size alone, and that is fair if you set out to do something different. It's a long way from this to say that size has no effect on sound.
[/quote]

That is the disadvantage of having people use this place to sell their product....it is a fine line between genuine advice or forum presense to pimp your stuff.
But, there is a very disernable difference in my 10's and 12"...and I'd say that current difference is typical of modern cabs and the ones I've tried.

[chris_b]

The one thing I learnt from yesterday's cab shoot out was how I would have been happy to use any of them on my gig last night.

It seems to me there were no bad cabs, just preferences. It was the first time I'd heard Schroeder cabs and they didn't sound as bad as I'd imagined after years of people stressing their downsides. The Fearless cabs sounded very good. I'd have liked to hear the 110 and 112 cabs doubled up. That how I'd use them on a gig and I think their sound improves dramatically when used in pairs.

I liked the Berg (of course), and I liked the Barefaced cabs. One of the eye openers for me was the amount of tone that came out of the gen 1 Compact, a single 15" that sounded like it had a tweeter, but hasn't.

And Alex comes in for even more criticism! <sigh>

As an abstract statement it might be true to say that the size of the speaker doesn't tell you anything about it's sound, but we never hear the speaker on its own, so as the sizes of the boxes usually conform to a general design you can definitely say that what we hear [i]is[/i] governed by size. Some manufacturers are making well designed cabs that don't conform to the norm, which is good.

When I started 90% of the cabs played were average sounding 412's, so IMO all choice is good. I'm not picky. In the last 10 years I've used 15's, 10's and 12's. They all sounded different but the all sounded good.

This does seem to be a unique issue for those on on-line forums. The rest of the bass playing world gets by without tearing its hair out over such small differences.

[discreet]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1443353449' post='2874019']
And Alex comes in for even more criticism! <sigh>
[/quote]

I <sigh> along with you. I really don't understand why Alex comes in for so much flak on here and elsewhere. He should be applauded, if anything. You don't see the big cab names getting so much stick. Maybe it's because they are faceless corporations and don't have an easily-targetable personality associated with them?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1443354523' post='2874030']
I really don't understand why Alex comes in for so much flak on here and elsewhere.
[/quote]It's because Alex tells it like it is, and people don't like having their pre-conceived subjective notions countered with factual objectivity. If the big manufacturers were concerned with anything but sales numbers they'd all have something similar to this on their websites:
http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information.htm
The fact that none do is telling.
Where driver size is concerned this is pretty much definitive:
http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/speaker-size-frequency-response.htm
But the ranks of those who'd rather cling to unfounded myth is legion, in any field.

[EssentialTension]

Having used, over the years, 5", 8", 10", 12", 15" and 18" speakers I have become conditioned not to care about speaker size.

Edited September 27, 2015 by EssentialTension

[Dan Dare]

I think it's because we like the sound of a particular cab and tend to go with whatever drivers are in it from then on. Can be illuminating to try something different.

[gafbass02]

Despite being well aware of the physics and the myths, and having been gigging for 25 years through a ton of different rigs.
I find 12' sound like 12's, 15's like 15's and 10's best

[discreet]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1443384608' post='2874326']
I think it's because we like the sound of a particular cab and tend to go with whatever drivers are in it from then on.
[/quote]

Good point. Bill and Alex agree that nominal speaker diameter tells us nothing about tone and I have no reason whatsoever to dispute this, particularly as these are people who know what they are talking about. As Bill says, the laws of physics aren't swayed by opinion.

It could be my imagined [i]penchant[/i] for 10" speakers stems from my liking for the Ampeg 8X10 cab - this is a sealed cab and sealed cabs sound different to ported cabs. So it could be the case that I actually like the sound of a sealed cab, albeit one that just happens to have 10" drivers in it...

Edited September 28, 2015 by discreet

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1443395071' post='2874406'] So it could be the case that I actually like the sound of a sealed cab, albeit one that just happens to have 10" drivers in it...
[/quote]+1. For the most part sealed cabs do sound different than ported. It would be interesting if Ampeg had gone with twelves or fifteens instead of tens with the SVT. AFAIK the only reason they did go with tens instead of twelves was that they wanted to use 32 ohm drivers so that they could be parallel wired for a 4 ohm load, and there weren't any 32 ohm twelves available.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1443353449' post='2874019']
I liked the Berg (of course), and I liked the Barefaced cabs. One of the eye openers for me was the amount of tone that came out of the gen 1 Compact, a single 15" that sounded like it had a tweeter, but hasn't.
[/quote]

Having owned a variety of 10 and 15 loaded cabs before I got my G2 compacts I would say that sonically they have much more in common with the 10 loaded cabs than the 15s although are somewhat directional in the highs due to the large speaker area much like a 4x10 but they are of course only half the size and weight which is a big bonus. I could barely hear hear any difference for example between my epifany 3x10 and the compact (at least with the epi tweeter dialled right down).

Edited September 28, 2015 by bassman7755

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1443353449' post='2874019']

And Alex comes in for even more criticism! <sigh>


[/quote]
[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1443354523' post='2874030']
I <sigh> along with you. I really don't understand why Alex comes in for so much flak on here and elsewhere.
[/quote]
[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1443360673' post='2874092']
It's because Alex tells it like it is, and people don't like having their pre-conceived subjective notions countered with factual objectivity.

Where driver size is concerned this is pretty much definitive:
[url="http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/speaker-size-frequency-response.htm"]http://barefacedbass...cy-response.htm[/url]
But the ranks of those who'd rather cling to unfounded myth is legion, in any field.
[/quote]

Oh dear, I hope no one is accusing me of criticising Alex. This isn't personal and I avoided naming him talking only of the laws of physics which aren't swayed by opinion, apparently.

For the record what I said was that Alex's (for it was he) statements are fair and I was specifically referring to the article Bill has provided the link to. The one above. It is frequently misunderstood and misquoted as saying size doesn't matter, and quite correctly it says it does matter. The opening paragraph talks about volume displacement which is cone area times excursion and even the advantages of larger cone area. The second paragraph talks about transient response and force being mass times acceleration, all basic physics correctly and clearly explained, concluding that you can get good transient response from a high mass cone if you use a bigger magnet. Implicit in this is that with the same magnet the smaller cone will have the better transient response. So again Alex is correctly saying size matters, but adding it isn't the only thing that matters.

For the record Alex's articles for BGM are well written and he carefully simplifies some of the science to write some nicely crafted articles. It is sometimes difficult to simplify science and to stay true to the underlying concepts and Alex is scrupulous in what he writes. I'm a fan.

I'm sorry to be so picky but I taught sciences for most of my working life and can't help correcting the 'homework' of lazy pupils. Science works by isolating single variables and in speaker design cone area is one of the crucial variables. I don't know how you would calculate Vd without cone area or efficiency or resonant frequency independently of Mms (cone mass of course is directly related to size). Oh, and there is so much more that is affected directly or indirectly by cone size.

Alex uses the analogy with cars and compares the high mass high energy Bugatti Veyron with the lower mass lower energy VW Golf (doesn't say if it is diesel ) The point I was making is that there are a lot of Golf like family hatchbacks out there, everyone does a Golf like car and we all have expectations when we look at a medium sized hatchback with a 1.9 diesel engine. Similarly most speaker manufacturers have 10,12 and 15" drivers with thin cones and modest magnets, pressed chassis and two or three roll surrounds and they all perform in a similar way. Those people who think 10 and 15's have a sound are often simply stating what they hear. The only problem they might have is that there is the odd Bugatti out there and the only way of finding out is by listening. Those who believe size doesn't matter are going to have to listen to a lot of similar sounding speakers to track down 'the one'

Anyone who says cone size doesn't matter is just flat wrong, and is one of the myth makers.

Size matters, it just isn't the only thing.

[Bassman Steve]

I freely admit that I am but maybe I should be more specific and say a particular speaker size in a ported enclosure. I do like the sounds that other players get with other speaker sizes but just find I have a preference that probably colours my judgement in relation to choosing cabs.

[Chienmortbb]

Phil you are right about speker size. It is one of the of the parameters that detemines the sound. However you are wrong in that I don't think Bill was criticising you but someone else.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1443425049' post='2874468']
The point I was making is that there are a lot of Golf like family hatchbacks out there, everyone does a Golf like car and we all have expectations when we look at a medium sized hatchback with a 1.9 diesel engine. Similarly most speaker manufacturers have 10,12 and 15" drivers with thin cones and modest magnets, pressed chassis and two or three roll surrounds and they all perform in a similar way. Those people who think 10 and 15's have a sound are often simply stating what they hear. The only problem they might have is that there is the odd Bugatti out there and the only way of finding out is by listening. Those who believe size doesn't matter are going to have to listen to a lot of similar sounding speakers to track down 'the one'
[/quote]

Its probably true that commodity cabs are dominated by the characteristics of their commodity drivers but with high end stuff high end it doesn't seem to be the case.

I use G2 compacts but if someone gave me the choice of using a low-mid grade 15 or a 10 loaded cab I'd pick the 10 in a heartbeat but for high end cabs I don't really consider the driver size as a factor since I assume the designer working without severe cost constraints can get the results they want with whatever they have chosen to use.

[discreet]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1443430453' post='2874509']
Phil you are right about speker size. It is one of the of the parameters that detemines the sound.
[/quote]

Just out of interest, why do you believe this statement to be true? It is obvious from this and other threads elsewhere that some people think that speaker size has [i]no[/i] bearing on tone - and that other people think speaker size [i]definitely[/i] has a bearing on tone. Clearly both these statements can't be true. I know which I [i]think [/i]is correct, but I don't have enough knowledge of physics or electronics or bass cab construction to make a decision about which statement is [i]actually [/i]correct, so in the end I can only go by what I read on teh internetz.

Meanwhile, I'm going to judge bass cabs on a cab-by-cab basis and go with the one I like the sound of in a live band situation, regardless of speaker size and regardless of how many speakers are in the cab. Oh wait, I did that a year ago. As you were.

[JTUK]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1443439099' post='2874608']
Just out of interest, why do you believe this statement to be true? It is obvious from this and other threads elsewhere that some people think that speaker size has [i]no[/i] bearing on tone - and that other people think speaker size [i]definitely[/i] has a bearing on tone. Clearly both these statements can't be true. I know which I [i]think [/i]is correct, but [b] I don't have enough knowledge of physics or electronics or bass cab construction to make a decision about which statement is [i]actually [/i]correct, so in the end I can only go by what I read on teh internetz[/b].

[b]Meanwhile, I'm going to judge bass cabs on a cab-by-cab basis and go with the one I like the sound of in a live band situation, regardless of speaker size and regardless of how many speakers are in the cab. Oh wait, I did that a year ago. As you were.[/b]
[/quote]

You could apply that to many many people and some of them post here.

But after a while, people will have tried a load of stuff and built their own references so if someone stands up in an room and screams
loud and clear that their way is right... and some of those people just don't agree as the final arbiter is the sonic test...and baring in mind,
this room may well have a few 'experts' of their own.

As far as cabs go... I know which ones I like.

I too would have a 610/810 by choice..so 10's for me.
Doesn't stop me using 12's either.

But if you only made 15"s...then I could see why you may have been vocal about 15's..if you wanted to sell them, for example

[discreet]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1443445638' post='2874710']
...I too would have a 610/810 by choice..so 10's for me. Doesn't stop me using 12's either. But if you only made 15"s...then I could see why you may have been vocal about 15's..if you wanted to sell them, for example
[/quote]

So essentially you favour 10s and 12s. If your comment about 15s is aimed at a certain company who produce lightweight bass cabs, you'll find that their entire range across three series currently consist entirely of cabs based on 10- and 12- inch drivers. Not a 15 in sight.

How do you stand on the 'size' issue, btw? Do you think driver size makes a difference to tone?

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1443445638' post='2874710']
But if you only made 15"s...then I could see why you may have been vocal about 15's..if you wanted to sell them, for example
[/quote]

If you had the balls to actually man up and name names then the accused could defend themselves against said accusations.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1443439099' post='2874608']
Just out of interest, why do you believe this statement to be true? It is obvious from this and other threads elsewhere that some people think that speaker size has [i]no[/i] bearing on tone - and that other people think speaker size [i]definitely[/i] has a bearing on tone. Clearly both these statements can't be true. I know which I [i]think [/i]is correct, but I don't have enough knowledge of physics or electronics or bass cab construction to make a decision about which statement is [i]actually [/i]correct, so in the end I can only go by what I read on teh internetz.

Meanwhile, I'm going to judge bass cabs on a cab-by-cab basis and go with the one I like the sound of in a live band situation, regardless of speaker size and regardless of how many speakers are in the cab. Oh wait, I did that a year ago. As you were.
[/quote]

First of all you are right, in the final judgement the way the cab sounds is the crucial factor. You only need to know the rest if you want to design cabs, though it is sometimes interesting to understand what is going on under the bonnet to keep the car analogy going a little longer.

I think the reason the advice about speaker size was first given was genuinely to open people's eyes to other possibilities when choosing cabs. If they made the assumption that only 10's would do then they would miss out on auditioning 12's and 15's and perhaps miss out on the cab that would suit them best. I think Alex may have been concerned about selling the original compact but what he said is true for all bass cabs and speakers in general. All speakers, whatever their diameter don't necessarily sound the same.

Somehow this became size doesn't matter and that you don't get a lot of similar sounding 10's or 15's or that somehow size isn't part of speaker design.

The effects range from the obvious to the more subtle. A big speaker is going to have a big cone and with the same thickness of paper pulp it will be heavier. Increasing the mass of the cone will lower the frequency it resonates at and this is a major determinant of it's bass response (but not the only one). It's just like using a thicker string, at the same tension it plays lower so it's easier to make it play low, and just like a string you can tune it to a range of frequencies.

It goes beyond this, a bigger mass is harder to move, so unless you change other things you get less sound, usually you use a bigger magnet but that's another variable. It is also harder to accelerate and decelerate a bigger mass with the same force applied so transient response will be different

A bigger cone will shift more air and make a louder sound when the speaker moves to it's limits. It also has greater efficiency.

There will also be knock on effects. A bigger cone with the same thickness of paper/pulp will be floppier and will flex more at higher frequencies, so frequencies other than the bass will be altered by changing cone size, this will affect the relative levels of bass and top. You can adjust the thickness of the cone but there are practical limits, too little pulp and the cone flexes too easily and handling of bass is impaired, too much and it becomes too heavy to be practical. There is a goldilocks point where it is just right for a particular application so designs tend to cluster together for practical reasons. At this point it can become much more complex, you can use something other than paper, dope the paper with other materials, lay it down at varying thickness across the cone or use plant fibres from a variety of different plants all of which affect sound.

Then if you decide you want to achieve a certain sound level at a certain frequency with a small driver you will have to design an appropriate voice coil because of your decision over the cone size, this in turn will affect the design of the magnet and the suspension. All these things have to be taken into account in designing a new speaker and size is one of the essential variables to be considered.

Just as you wouldn't choose to race a vehicle just based on engine size or you might end up racing with a truck. You'd be equally foolish to say it doesn't matter what size the engine is too.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Phil Starr

[Dad3353]

Headphones and ear-buds, including in-ear monitors, have (usually...) far different 'speaker' sizes compared to bass cabs, but are often well able to given a fine rendition of all the frequencies. It's obvious (it seems to me...) that speaker diameter is a factor, but only a relatively small one, in judging how any speaker or cab will perform.
Now drum sizes, that's different. Bass drums, floor toms, rack toms, snares, piccolos... Not just diameter, but depth, too..! A whole field of debate, even before considering material (tone-wood..? steel..? aluminium..? perspex..?...). There's a subject for debate if ever there was one...

[JTUK]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1443446995' post='2874725']
So essentially you favour 10s and 12s. If your comment about 15s is aimed at a certain company who produce lightweight bass cabs, you'll find that their entire range across three series currently consist entirely of cabs based on 10- and 12- inch drivers. Not a 15 in sight.

How do you stand on the 'size' issue, btw? Do you think driver size makes a difference to tone?
[/quote]

In terms of attack yes.. and I prefer that typically, they aren't bass booming boxes..but I also think that a boomy bass can also be
the problem of the the signal in. And that opens another can of worms.