Does one become conditioned to a certain sized speaker

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1443460045' post='2874905']
Headphones and ear-buds, including in-ear monitors, have (usually...) far different 'speaker' sizes compared to bass cabs, but are often well able to given a fine rendition of all the frequencies. It's obvious (it seems to me...) that speaker diameter is a factor, but only a relatively small one, in judging how any speaker or cab will perform.
Now drum sizes, that's different. Bass drums, floor toms, rack toms, snares, piccolos... Not just diameter, but depth, too..! A whole field of debate, even before considering material (tone-wood..? steel..? aluminium..? perspex..?...). There's a subject for debate if ever there was one...
[/quote]
Relatively small factor? well it would be interesting to see earbuds used for bass No doubt the next project for the chap who built the 4x15. 20,000 earbuds built onto a convex baffle?!!!!

I've a 5" driver in my hi fi which goes deeper than my bass cabs and has an Xmax of 11mm. The limit is on it's efficiency and the maximum volume it can produce. Closer to us the Phil Jones bass amps produce a lovely bass, just not so much of it.

That's kind of the point I'm making, speakers are designed to do different jobs and you make different compromises to suit the application. To create deep bass at high volumes you need to be able to move a lot of air, that means cone area and excursion. If you decrease one you have to increase the other. In turn this will change the efficiency of the speaker and you'll need more power or a better magnet or a bit of both. All these things have a knock on effect on the design and the sound.

There are a few people on here who seem to want it to be heavy v's light, single cones v's 8x10's 10's v 15's. The truth is that there are a number of design concepts that come up with different solutions when designing bass speakers. All of them contain compromises because of the physics but they aren't right or wrong, just different answers to slightly different questions. Cone area is one of the things you consider amongst others.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1443521479' post='2875425']
Relatively small factor?...
[/quote]

Just a nit-picking detail, but I actually wrote '...a factor, but only a relatively small one, in [b]judging[/b] how any speaker or cab will perform...'. There no debate in the physics of the thing, as you ably demonstrate, but it's the preconceived [i]judgement [/i]that seems to be the sticking point. The diameter alone, when simply looking at a cab, will not tell if it's suitable for bass or not.

[tauzero]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1443425049' post='2874468']
Alex uses the analogy with cars and compares the high mass high energy Bugatti Veyron with the lower mass lower energy VW Golf (doesn't say if it is diesel ) The point I was making is that there are a lot of Golf like family hatchbacks out there, everyone does a Golf like car and we all have expectations when we look at a medium sized hatchback with a 1.9 diesel engine. Similarly most speaker manufacturers have 10,12 and 15" drivers with thin cones and modest magnets, pressed chassis and two or three roll surrounds and they all perform in a similar way.
[/quote]

If I may make a wild generalisation, cabs from different manufacturers tend to be built with similar dimensions, grouping into the 1x12, 1x15, 2x10, 2x12, and 4x10 (most popular sizes). These are, in a way, dictated by the speaker sizes, insofar as the tendency will be to make a cab compact if it uses 10" drivers, comparatively larger if it uses 12" drivers, and BFO sized for the 15" as the user is obviously not that bothered about it crowding the guitarist off the stage. It's possibly that clustering of cabinet volumes that is falsely equated with a driver tone.

[chris_b]

Bods and purists want to talk about the sound speakers. Most of the people who want to gig talk about the sound of cabs. Because that's what they hear and buy.

If we are to believe what we are told, 90% of the cabs sold are "middle of the road" and "badly" designed. Strangely that doesn't stop a majority of them sounding pretty good as we found out at the cab shoot out at the SE Bass Bash.

I just got told on Talkbass that a bass amp I once owned couldn't reproduce any meaningful bass. They guy had never heard one but read the manual!! I'm not knowledgeable enough to discuss or argue the technicalities but I know what I hear, there was a ton of deep bass, but my experience didn't count when stacked up against the paperwork!

Strangely, it seems, real life isn't good enough. Fortunately a real expert came in an demolished his argument.

This is what we have to endure.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1443525809' post='2875486']
If we are to believe what we are told, 90% of the cabs sold are "middle of the road" and "badly" designed. Strangely that doesn't stop a majority of them sounding pretty good as we found out at the cab shoot out at the SE Bass Bash.
[/quote]

The observations from people at the bash pretty much tallies with what I assumed was the case i.e. that the differences between any of the reasonably well designed and put together cabs wasn't dramatic. I've certainly not noticed a dramatic difference in basic sound quality between good commodity stuff and boutique cabs of similar design (peavey and epifany in my case) that I've owned.

So when buying a cab I tend to primarily consider more tangible factors such as power handling, efficiency, size, weight etc, I kind of take it as a given that anything in the price ranges I look at will be good sounding when deployed appropriately.

[discreet]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1443529741' post='2875544']
...when buying a cab I tend to primarily consider more tangible factors such as power handling, efficiency, size, weight etc...
[/quote]

+1 I love 8x10 cabs but know from experience what a pain in the arse they can be. I suppose my journey has been about finding that sound and power in a practical package (regardless of speaker size) and I think I'm close to it.

[Roland Rock]

With my last cab purchase, the overriding factor was the depth of the cab - anything more than 14" and it couldn't fit in the space under the stairs.

[Tradfusion]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1443531467' post='2875573']
+1 I love 8x10 cabs but know from experience what a pain in the arse they can be. I suppose my journey has been about finding that sound and power in a practical package (regardless of speaker size) and I think I'm close to it.
[/quote]

I agree a good stack of 10s is hard to beat for tone and punch but too impractical for most of us to even consider... I think 12s are so popular nowadays because they are that in-between speaker size that seems to cover alot of ground gig wise for the average gigging bassist who uses his own family saloon or hatchback to get to gigs... many 2x10 cabs (but not all) tend to fall just that bit short of covering louder gigs whereas a 2x12 will probably get you there most of the time... a 4x10 will probably equal or out-gun a 2x12 but its usually bigger and heavier and we have become obsessed with lightweight and smaller cabs in recent years... same goes for other drivers like 5s and 8s etc, you need quite alot of them to shift the same amount of air as a couple of decent 12s so size and weight again becomes an issue.. 15s are generally bigger and heavier and have become a bit uncool lately too so the 12 will remain king of the bass speakers for the time being at least (IMO)

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='obbm' timestamp='1443302370' post='2873781']
Today's Cab Shoot Out at the SE Bass Bash got me wondering if one gets conditioned to certain sized speakers. For some years now I have used cabs with 12" speakers, I have briefly deviated to 10", 15" and even 5" but I always find that the sound that pleases me most comes from 12" drivers and I invariably return to using them. Have I become conditioned to 12" and unable to accept anything else or is it something more fundamental in their sonic characteristics?
[/quote]

Sorry obbm we've wandered off the point. Do we get conditioned? I think we do, both in a practical sense and a psychoacoustic way.

Firstly we are odd creatures accumulating a lot of trial and error optimisation without realising we are doing it, and we become creatures of habit. This probably serves us well when gigging as setting up can be a bit chaotic. We go for the tried and trusted eq, tweak for the room acoustics and away we go. Experience makes you quite good at that but change speakers and you start a new learning curve. It'll take a while for you to get used to a new speaker and achieve a good sound consistently. If I'm right and most mid price pro speakers have similar drivers there will be a generic 12" 'sound'.

The second thing is that as creatures of habit we like the familiar. I'll bet a lot of us are still playing with the tones used in the recordings of our youth. (Playing mostly songs in 4/4 and a Western tone scale and I,IV,V,vi if truth be told) so after a little experimentation we settle down to 'our tone' and just look for incremental improvements.

It's been interesting designing speakers for other bass players. The 12" I've been designing here has more, cleaner and deeper bass and more top than almost all the non horn 12" commercial units out there which I know from the measurements we've taken. It was what people asked for but the people who've tried it have had mixed responses, they hear the extra clarity but don't know what to do with it. I've gigged them regularly but my graphic eq now looks like the response of an old fashioned 8x10. Even I obviously like the sound of lots of cheap speakers. One of my projects is now going to have to be to design a 1x12 that sounds like an ancient 4x10!

Of course it may not just be us. My live sound is set up to work with the rest of the band and if they all set up to sound like their heroes then I've got to fit in with that. The price of playing covers i suppose.

[tanuki]

Personally l love 15s, and have not voluntarily played anything else for a long while...

12s are alright, i played 6x12 cabinet in latvia recently.. that was an experience!
10s are too plinky for me, even the sight of an 8x10 on the stage if hiring/sharing fills me full of sadness

sure my band wouldn't agree though

[JTUK]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1443597701' post='2875961']
Sorry obbm we've wandered off the point. Do we get conditioned? I think we do, both in a practical sense and a psychoacoustic way.

Firstly we are odd creatures accumulating a lot of trial and error optimisation without realising we are doing it, and we become creatures of habit. This probably serves us well when gigging as setting up can be a bit chaotic. We go for the tried and trusted eq, tweak for the room acoustics and away we go. Experience makes you quite good at that but change speakers and you start a new learning curve. It'll take a while for you to get used to a new speaker and achieve a good sound consistently. If I'm right and most mid price pro speakers have similar drivers there will be a generic 12" 'sound'.

[b]The second thing is that as creatures of habit we like the familiar. I'll bet a lot of us are still playing with the tones used in the recordings of our youth. (Playing mostly songs in 4/4 and a Western tone scale and I,IV,V,vi if truth be told) so after a little experimentation we settle down to 'our tone' and just look for incremental improvements.[/b]

It's been interesting designing speakers for other bass players. The 12" I've been designing here has more, cleaner and deeper bass and more top than almost all the non horn 12" commercial units out there which I know from the measurements we've taken. It was what people asked for but the people who've tried it have had mixed responses, they hear the extra clarity but don't know what to do with it. I've gigged them regularly but my graphic eq now looks like the response of an old fashioned 8x10. Even I obviously like the sound of lots of cheap speakers. One of my projects is now going to have to be to design a 1x12 that sounds like an ancient 4x10!

Of course it may not just be us. My live sound is set up to work with the rest of the band and if they all set up to sound like their heroes then I've got to fit in with that. The price of playing covers i suppose.
[/quote]

This is key for me.... I don't even have the same style I had 5 years ago..let alone, sound.
Styles evolve and therefore so does you sound. You can pay homage..but the trick is to try and incorporate them all into where you are now.

My take...and it may not be the kindest... is that players and bass players in particular, are stuck in the 80's... or even further back.
They still play all that stuff..it is their main reference and the only thing they've updated is the fact that they can't carry the same load...
which is possibly the only reason they've looked at their rig.
So..if they were really honest..and I don't entirely mean this in the wrong way... what HAVE they changed..??

I would also say that a place like this is a tad more vanguard-ish than many bass players thinking.. but then this also represents a small fraction of them as well.

Edited September 30, 2015 by JTUK

[KevB]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1443542535' post='2875679']
With my last cab purchase, the overriding factor was the depth of the cab - anything more than 14" and it couldn't fit in the space under the stairs.
[/quote]

This is partly why I stick with my Trace 715 combo, considering it has a 15'' driver it is surprisingly shallow, the SWR 2x10 ext cab I have noticeably deeper.

[discreet]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1443612638' post='2876181']
...it is surprisingly shallow...
[/quote]

Like some of the membership here. Wahey!! *Runs away*

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1443608928' post='2876117']
My take...and it may not be the kiondest... is that players and bass players in particular, are stuck in the 80's...
[/quote]More like the 30's. The answer to the basic question posed can be found here, published in 1940.
http://www.introni.it/pdf/Olson%20-%20Elements%20of%20Acoustical%20Engineering%201940.pdf

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1443618162' post='2876276']
More like the 30's. The answer to the basic question posed can be found here, published in 1940.
[url="http://www.introni.it/pdf/Olson%20-%20Elements%20of%20Acoustical%20Engineering%201940.pdf"]http://www.introni.i...ring%201940.pdf[/url]
[/quote]

nothing like a bit of light reading for a wednesday afternoon, and thats nothing like a bit of light reading

can you give us the concise version please bill?

[Lozz196]

Bottom line is, if your ears prefer the sound of one type of speaker over another, and then time and time again it ends up with you preferring that same type over the other types, what is wrong? Irrespective of science/middle ages/square wheels, they`re your ears, you`re free to prefer whichever speakers you want. But only make the statement based upon hearing said items. I can`t generalise and say "I prefer 10s". I`ve just found that invariably when I really like the sound of a bass set-up, it has been multiple 10 inch speakers. But if the same bass & amp had then been connected to a bunch of 12s or 15s, well would I have noticed any difference, and if I had, which would I have preferred.

The cab shoot-out at the SE Bash showed a fair change even amongst cabs with the same formation, though all were incredibly giggable. Some I liked better than others, but in all cases I could never have said which was a 12, a 212, a 15 etc. One of the 15s in particular sounded very toppy to me, whereas one of the 12s was very full-bodied shall we say (and both made by the same company).

[chris_b]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1443608928' post='2876117']
bass players in particular, are stuck in the 80's... or even further back.
[/quote]

While there is always room for improvement, I don't care where I'm stuck, as long as the guys I play with think I play well and sound good.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' timestamp='1443621142' post='2876325']
nothing like a bit of light reading for a wednesday afternoon, and thats nothing like a bit of light reading

can you give us the concise version please bill?
[/quote]http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/speaker-size-frequency-response.htm

[JTUK]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1443623940' post='2876357']
While there is always room for improvement, I don't care where I'm stuck, as long as the guys I play with think I play well and sound good.
[/quote]

To be fair, some gtrs are stuck in another time warp as well...but no matter, if you get call backs, then you are doing something right
for that gig.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1443624342' post='2876365']
[url="http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/speaker-size-frequency-response.htm"]http://barefacedbass...cy-response.htm[/url]
[/quote]


think i must have my stupid head on
think i'll have to read that again