Placement of "full range" subs!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Jenny_Innie' timestamp='1444244267' post='2881574']
We've had a bit of a dry run for this...
[/quote]

'Proof of the pudding' and all that; if you've already tested the concept with success, to your satisfaction, I'd say that the project could only be better yet with the cabs you've suggested. You're in effect having the FOH behind you, so will get all that the audience get. If you keep the vocal mics out of these cabs, I don't see any real problems, except, as I mentioned previously, in the automatic limit in the sonic volume you can create; no bad thing in small/medium venues. It's a bit like using side fill monitors (an excellent concept in itself...), but giving the audience the benefit. You can't do this for open air festival stages; other than that (and, of course, the cost of these cabs...) I can't see why it shouldn't be suitable. I like the concept, and others have used it successfully, too.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Jenny_Innie' timestamp='1444244267' post='2881574']
So, next time out, we did the same, but put the kick (and my bass) through my Barefaced 2x10 and 1x15 stack and sent the overheads in stereo with the vocals through the FOH. Bingo. We listened back to the recording from a Zoom Q3HD out front and it was much better than previously. To do that, we had to DI my bass and then take an aux out with the bass and pipe it in to the rear of my TC RH750 head. We've since experimented with putting a bit of the overheads through the rear too, to good effect.
[/quote]

So your looking to get a couple of FR's as a sort of consolidated backline, sounds like it could work, if a bit unorthodox. Just dont put any vocal mic though it (edit: ninjad by DAD3353).

Edited October 7, 2015 by bassman7755

[gjones]

My first impression is, that if the F800 speakers are going to be heard clearly out front, then they're going to have to be bloody loud onstage.Probably too loud for comfort. The beauty of having a PA out front is that the stage is a much quieter (relatively speaking) and more comfortable place to be, than standing in front of a whopping great PA speaker, whacking out the band at gig volume.

Edited October 7, 2015 by gjones

[Dad3353]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1444249792' post='2881648']
My first impression is, that if the F800 speakers are going to be heard clearly out front, then they're going to have to be bloody loud onstage.Probably too loud for comfort. The beauty of having a PA out front is that the stage is a much quieter (relatively speaking) and more comfortable place to be, than standing in front of a whopping great PA speaker, whacking out the band at gig volume.
[/quote]

[quote][i]From the original post...[/i]
...[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]When I say "at the back" the pub and club "stages" we play are usually not more than a few yards in depth...[/quote][/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]If it's too loud on 'stage', it's too loud for the venue, in these circumstances, I'd say...[/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]What's the difference between this back-line and a traditional bass stack..? If it's loud, it's loud. If it's too loud, it's too loud. Wembley-sized venues are a different affair, but for modest pubs and clubs, there's no big deal, surely..?[/font][/color]

Edited October 7, 2015 by Dad3353

[Jenny_Innie]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1444250145' post='2881650']
[/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]If it's too loud on 'stage', it's too loud for the venue, in these circumstances, I'd say...[/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]What's the difference between this back-line and a traditional bass stack..? If it's loud, it's loud. If it's too loud, it's too loud. Wembley-sized venues are a different affair, but for modest pubs and clubs, there's no big deal, surely..?[/font][/color]
[/quote]

Word

[Phil Starr]

That helps a bit. In fact I'm a little jealous as the 'usual problem' is the drums being so loud you have to turn everything else up to be heard.

It seems you are happy with your on stage sound but need a bit more drums out front, you have the mics but the PA won't cope with drums. Right?

Your best bet if you want a good sound is to keep your current on stage levels and put the drums through a PA which will cope. I'd imagine the Mackies will cope with the overheads but that the kick is overwhelming them with demands to shift more air than they are happy doing. Your choice is either to add some subs with a crossover which stops the bass going through the Mackies or to upgrade the Mackies. Once you do this you can put some bass and guitar through the PA for bigger gigs if you need to.

There are three good reasons this is the better bet. More sound on stage means turning up the vocal monitors, or not hearing the vocals. It means more unwanted sounds feeding into the vocal mic and muddying your sound and it means your hearing will be damaged in the medium to long term unless you wear earplugs.

If you had no money then I'd admire your ingenuity and say go for using the bass stack in this way if it works for you. If you are going to spend hundreds of pounds or more then you might as well get the best result you can.

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]If it's too loud on 'stage', it's too loud for the venue,[/font][/color][/quote]

Not really, sound drops off at the rate of 6dB every time you double the distance so if you want 90dB (loudish hi fi) at the back of a venue you need an uncomfortable level of well over 100dB on stage.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1444258936' post='2881757']
That helps a bit. In fact I'm a little jealous as the 'usual problem' is the drums being so loud you have to turn everything else up to be heard.

It seems you are happy with your on stage sound but need a bit more drums out front, you have the mics but the PA won't cope with drums. Right?

Your best bet if you want a good sound is to keep your current on stage levels and put the drums through a PA which will cope. I'd imagine the Mackies will cope with the overheads but that the kick is overwhelming them with demands to shift more air than they are happy doing. Your choice is either to add some subs with a crossover which stops the bass going through the Mackies or to upgrade the Mackies. Once you do this you can put some bass and guitar through the PA for bigger gigs if you need to.

There are three good reasons this is the better bet. More sound on stage means turning up the vocal monitors, or not hearing the vocals. It means more unwanted sounds feeding into the vocal mic and muddying your sound and it means your hearing will be damaged in the medium to long term unless you wear earplugs.

If you had no money then I'd admire your ingenuity and say go for using the bass stack in this way if it works for you. If you are going to spend hundreds of pounds or more then you might as well get the best result you can.

Not really, sound drops off at the rate of 6dB every time you double the distance so if you want 90dB (loudish hi fi) at the back of a venue you need an uncomfortable level of well over 100dB on stage.
[/quote]

I'm not entirely comfortable arguing on behalf of the OP, so I'll let her do through the medium of her preceding post...

[quote name='Jenny_Innie' timestamp='1444244267' post='2881574']
We've had a bit of a dry run for this. We're a power trio, guitar/vocals, bass/vocals, drums. Other Jenny, our drummer, is a fantastic jazz trained player. Powerful at times and nicely subtle at others. But we've had comments from some audiences that they can't hear her. So, we put an SM57 inside the bass drum and hung XY condensers over the kit - and we put it all through the two FOH Mackies. Better, but it messed with the vocals a bit.

So, next time out, we did the same, but put the kick (and my bass) through my Barefaced 2x10 and 1x15 stack and sent the overheads in stereo with the vocals through the FOH. Bingo. We listened back to the recording from a Zoom Q3HD out front and it was much better than previously. To do that, we had to DI my bass and then take an aux out with the bass and pipe it in to the rear of my TC RH750 head. We've since experimented with putting a bit of the overheads through the rear too, to good effect.

One of our mates was out from with the iPad wireless mixer (very cool those) and was able to adjust everything ...... other than the guitar.

Good thing is that we get to hear something close to what the audience hears.

So, rather than use kit that's not designed for that (i.e. my bass head and stack) we figured that we can get a couple of the FR800 units which are supposed to be used in such ways...
[/quote]

It seems that the concept has been tried and tested, albeit with less than ideal cabs (ie: the bass stack...). If, with those levels, it's suitable for their needs, what else is there to say..? Whatever the room, if a bass stack gives the right sound, the proposed cabs will do the same, surely..? All that's required is to reinforce (I assume quite lightly...) the bass drum, and maybe (even[i] that's[/i] only a 'maybe'...) put the overheads through the back, just enough to get the drummer heard a bit more. I trust they're going for sensible levels; they've even tried it out and it works at the levels they're after. The case is proven, no..? If, for once, the band have enough sense and sensibility to be able to get a good sound from the three of 'em, using as little clutter as possible, in moderate venues, at moderate levels, what's not to like..? It's even been checked out with a wifi pad from the hall. I don't know why there's so much opposition to a reasonably set-up system such as this. They're not looking for high-pressure stage level; quite the opposite. They're not looking to blast the plaster off the back wall, either; so much the better. I [i]would [/i]agree that it's a high budget, but it's quality gear they're aiming for, not lowest budget. I say 'Good on 'em, and more power to their elbow'. A bit of innovation makes a pleasant change.
I may have to eat my words if it turns sour, but if it's been tested, I'd take the next step, at least, and borrow or hire a couple of these cabs and try it out for real.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Dad3353

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1444260052' post='2881760']
I'm not entirely comfortable arguing on behalf of the OP, so I'll let her do through the medium of her preceding post...



It seems that the concept has been tried and tested, albeit with less than ideal cabs (ie: the bass stack...). If, with those levels, it's suitable for their needs, what else is there to say..? Whatever the room, if a bass stack gives the right sound, the proposed cabs will do the same, surely..? All that's required is to reinforce (I assume quite lightly...) the bass drum, and maybe (even[i] that's[/i] only a 'maybe'...) put the overheads through the back, just enough to get the drummer heard a bit more.
[/quote]

Hi Dad, (seems odd saying that as I'm probably your age or maybe even older )

I'm not really trying to have an argument (shades of Monty Python here) but trying to help Jennie get the best sound she can. My concern is that what she is suggesting has drawbacks she won't always be able to get around. She describes her band as a power trio and says the audience lose the drums sometimes, which kind of indicates normal pub volumes at least.

If she buys these speakers she will get a better sound by using them as a conventional PA, for the reasons I've explained. (keeping stage sound levels down and a clean vocal feed.) If all she is trying to achieve is more drums out front then this is the way to go, with the drums out front.

If she wants to put drums through the PA then she has options. The Mackies she has can handle drums if she adds a sub or she can get PA speakers that can handle more bass (including the Barefaced).

All I'm trying to do is clarify what her choices are and why. The set up she has tried may have worked OK it just isn't the best and won't work in every space she plays.

[mrtcat]

How cool would it be to be in the situation where the drums are an issue in a pub because they're too quiet. With a decent portable pa with a sub or two and some restraint from bass and guitars and you will be able to engineer a really good full sound foh. Plus your hearing should benefit too.

Edited October 11, 2015 by mrtcat

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1444551659' post='2883917']
How cool would it be to be in the situation where the drums are an issue in a pub because they're too quiet. With a decent portable pa with a sub or two and some restraint from bass and guitars and you will be able to engineer a really good full sound foh. Plus your hearing should benefit too.
[/quote]
I know, I want her drummer.

[ubit]

Our trouble is our drums cut through too much , which means we have to compensate and it starts getting too loud for my liking. Thing is one of the best sounds we have had was when we just used back line and just put vocals through the PA. On the other hand, in our main gig, we can't use just back line as the place gets really noisy and we would be swamped.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1444639478' post='2884615']
Our trouble is our drums cut through too much , which means we have to compensate and it starts getting too loud for my liking. Thing is one of the best sounds we have had was when we just used back line and just put vocals through the PA. On the other hand, in our main gig, we can't use just back line as the place gets really noisy and we would be swamped.
[/quote]

Not sure if we should hi-jack this thread but that is the more normal problem. If your drummer is too loud then bassist has to match that volume and everyone else too. The resultant sound level in a restricted space, and most UK venues are small, is usually enough to guarantee feedback problems or at least a very muddy sound because of the backline being picked up by the vocal mic's. If it is a problem you have to get the drummer to come down a bit. lighter sticks and a less punchy kit are options but a good drummer has a lot of control over volume without destroying their dynamics.

Back line with vocals only going through the PA is a great solution because it is simple, so unless you have a sound engineer it is the easiest system for a band to control. I'm not surprised you get your best sound that way. Having everything through the PA is also relatively straightforward and gives you the option of dropping the stage levels right down, but it works best with someone out front mixing. Hybrid set ups with half the band going direct and the other half through the PA need a lot more work and thought to sound really good yet so many bands end up using this method.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1444719948' post='2885227']Back line with vocals only going through the PA is a great solution because it is simple, so unless you have a sound engineer it is the easiest system for a band to control
[/quote]

I've always been a fan of this approach in smaller venues. Acoustic drums sound so good compared to basic micing through an underpowered PA. The sticking point is often the drummer having too light a right foot and/or an overdamped kick drum. The drummer in my last band had two kits, one smaller shells with a 22" kick and one bigger shells with a 26" kick - we'd just bring the kit that suited the size of the venue. A 26" kick drum with minimal damping can slam through a BIG space. And small PA systems sound much better on vocals if they're not dealing with other instruments, especially lower frequency ones that push the mid-bass drivers hard.

The other common sticking point is the miserable dispersion from guitar amps, especially closed back 4x12" cabs. But I have a solution for that...

[cheddatom]

Is it just the kick drum that's not cutting through enough? Or the whole kit? I see a lot of drummers who rely on the PA/monitors to get volume out of their kick drum. IMHO this is bad technique

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1444726574' post='2885307']
I've always been a fan of this approach in smaller venues. Acoustic drums sound so good compared to basic micing through an underpowered PA. The sticking point is often the drummer having too light a right foot and/or an overdamped kick drum. The drummer in my last band had two kits, one smaller shells with a 22" kick and one bigger shells with a 26" kick - we'd just bring the kit that suited the size of the venue. A 26" kick drum with minimal damping can slam through a BIG space. And small PA systems sound much better on vocals if they're not dealing with other instruments, especially lower frequency ones that push the mid-bass drivers hard.

The other common sticking point is the miserable dispersion from guitar amps, especially closed back 4x12" cabs. But I have a solution for that...
[/quote]Oh yes.

Whilst you are on Alex it might be good to tell Jennie how to get the best out of the FR800's she seems keen on.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1444551659' post='2883917']
How cool would it be to be in the situation where the drums are an issue in a pub because they're too quiet. With a decent portable pa with a sub or two and some restraint from bass and guitars and you will be able to engineer a really good full sound foh. Plus your hearing should benefit too.
[/quote]

A band with electronic kit is even better, complete game changer in terms of ability to get a balanced sound at moderate volume levels.

[stevie]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1444736169' post='2885412']
I see a lot of drummers who rely on the PA/monitors to get volume out of their kick drum. IMHO this is bad technique
[/quote]

My band's guilty of this. In my previous band the drummer had an amp and cab he put the kick drum through. What are the options, without buying a big PA rig and getting a sound guy in?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1444738025' post='2885437']
My band's guilty of this. In my previous band the drummer had an amp and cab he put the kick drum through. What are the options, without buying a big PA rig and getting a sound guy in?
[/quote]

It's not always quite as easy as it may seem, though, I'd say. It rather depends on what sound the player is after. For my part, I like the full sound of a moderately dampened Bass drum, and open toms, and get what I want from shell, beater and head choice, and appropriate tuning. There are many different sounds, though, and often one loses volume, or 'cut', in the process. An example could be the '70s style of 'concert' toms, and bass drums with no resonant head at all, filled with pillows. Very little volume, but mic'ed up, very easy to obtain a solid, dry 'thump'. Think of the bass equivalent. How many bassists here would be able to gig with an un-amplified double bass..? Few, I'd say, and the solid body bass has little acoustic volume. That's why most use a bass rig. Some drummers have the same needs, relying on the electronics to get the sound across. An extreme would be a full electronic pad kit; this shocks few, these days, so why should a low-volume acoustic kit be considered so differently..?
This is not to say that an amp should always be the solution for low volume; playing technique, and decent choice of drums and tuning are a major part of the equation, but sometimes, depending on the sound required, mic'ing up [i]is [/i]the way to go.
Just sayin'.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Dad3353

[cheddatom]

my kick drum's fairly dead but I learned to whack it harder. For most music modern the bass drum should be the loudest instrument in the kit, and IMO that should be achieved acoustically before you start micing anything up

EDIT: A heavier beater can help!

Edited October 13, 2015 by cheddatom

[chevy-stu]

Some of the advice here and experience comes from all sorts of different angles, some I really don't understand.
I always mic or DI everything and add into the PA whatever's needed at each gig... Some rooms such as those with wooden floors, hard walls high ceiling etc, won't need much guitar, snare etc... but a big marquee and you'll need loads of everything in the mix, as the material surfaces suck it up.
A quiet drummer is a luxury indeed, and even more reason to keep a nice quiet stage level and pump it all through a decent PA... IMO live sound for bands, the vocals and kick drum are the 2 things you'll want up front in he mix.

[stevie]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1444740399' post='2885472']
my kick drum's fairly dead but I learned to whack it harder. For most music modern the bass drum should be the loudest instrument in the kit, and IMO that should be achieved acoustically before you start micing anything up
[/quote]

I suppose there are drummers and drummers. I don't think there's a lot you can do about that. However, in my current band the kick drum gets lost as soon as the rest of the band start playing. Which is why we put it through the PA cabs (good 1x 12s). Nothing else goes through the PA apart from the vocals. It doesn't seem to be a problem but I'd be interested to know if there's a better way.

[cheddatom]

I used to rehearse with my kick drum mic'd up, and I was quite light with my right foot, but it didn't matter. All the gigs we played had the kit and the soundman to cater to me. It's only when I started playing with a folk band in pubs without a big PA that I realised just how quiet my kick was in comparison to the rest of the kit, and that made me re-evaluate my technique.

Obviously that's just my opinion and all drummers are different, I'm not saying anyone's wrong for having a kick much quieter than their snare, it's just it presents this technical problem

In your example Stevie, I reckon everyone would turn down a bit if the cymbals and snare were at a similar level (or quieter) to the (un-mic'd) kick drum, in which case it would no longer be drowned out.

Edited October 13, 2015 by cheddatom

[Conan]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1444726574' post='2885307']
The other common sticking point is the miserable dispersion from guitar amps, especially closed back 4x12" cabs. But I have a solution for that...
[/quote]

One of the best guitar sounds I've ever heard (and with awesome dispersion) was when the amp (a Carvin) was run through a TKS 1126 bass cab!

I find it hard to understand why guitarists put up with gear that is so out-dated and inefficient. I know that's kind of what they expect, but still...

[Phil Starr]

I don't think there's a big deal about mic'ing the kick in principle. It's not much different from using a compressor to control the dynamics of your bass. As a drummer you'd probably want to work on your technique to make it unnecessary but I wouldn't hesitate to add a bit through the PA if it was a problem. Assuming the PA can handle it though. The biggest problem is mic placement, moving it a cm back or forward makes a huge difference in sound as does which bit of the skin you point at. Not something I like doing if we're 'on in ten'.

I also think it can be a bit of a comfort blanket, I've run mic's before and not actually put anything through the PA, happy drummist and no one notices. Don't tell anyone though

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1444777206' post='2886024']I also think it can be a bit of a comfort blanket, I've run mic's before and not actually put anything through the PA, happy drummist and no one notices. Don't tell anyone though [/quote]

No substitute for placebo effect!

Lee Sklar and the 'Producer Switch': http://www.bassplayer.com/artists/1171/lee-sklar-reflects-on-his-career/48067