Whats wrong with my sound? yes, I need help, cheers

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Che' timestamp='1444807481' post='2886121']
Ah one more thing Dad; when you pan lets say 2-4 instruments do you ever go for radical panning like 80-100%? For example drums in the middle, bass all the way to the left and rhythm guitar all the way to the right and flute just slightly panned to lets say left? Or do you keep the instruments rather close to each other? Also do you know of anyone radically panning instruments and still sounding good?

Thanks!
[/quote]

I rarely pan to such extremes; even less so with so few instruments. I could well 'hard-pan' if I'm doubling up an instrument, though; a doubled voice, or guitar, panned close to 100% each side so that they 'sum' to the middle or thereabouts. For effect, I might 'swing' a sound from one side to the other, but even then probably no more than 50%. It can be quite disturbing to have such extreme separation. I have no monitors, and do all with headphones; this greatly affects one's perspective on stereo placing. For the formation in your example, I'd be capable of going wild and panning at about 30-35%. Heady stuff, eh..? There are no rigid rules, of course; simply what sounds best each time, which is very subjective. I'm not religious about keeping stuff in the centre, though, and could well have the drums themselves panned across 10% left and 5% right (I play lefty; that's how I hear them...), and the bass 10% right. I might offset a lead vocal by a few %, too. Despite this, you can put me down as 'old school'; there are probably many that are more avant garde than myself.

[Che]

Thanks Dad for such an elaborate reply, just what I needed, not as a dogma but a guideline for future sonic endeavors of mine, this info will help! Cheers!

[Skol303]

[font=Helvetica][size=3]
[size=4]Excellent feedback here from Dad! [/size][/size][/font]
[font=Helvetica][size=3]
[size=4]The only things I’d add are:[/size][/size][/font]
[list]
[*][size=4]Despite the name, the secret to a good bass sound tends to be found in the mid-range, rather than the low end. For some genres cranking up the ‘Bass’ dial is fine - e.g. dub reggae. For most styles, however, you want to be twiddling around with the ‘Mids’ instead. That’s where you’ll find what most people refer to as being a “punchy” bass sound.[/size]
[/list]
[list]
[*][size=4]Go easy on the reverb. ‘Verb works beautifully with guitars, but less so with bass… where it tends to just ‘smudge’ the sound and make it lose definition. Try using a compressor instead. Bass can really benefit from compression - helping the sound to be consistent, solid and well defined.[/size]
[/list]

[Che]

Thanks Skol! When you say "twiddling around with the ‘Mids’ instead" can you share your settings in the clean channel for some styles like funk, rock, or whatever you play.
I know EQ can be different from one amp to another, from one type of strings to another, old or new strings, pickups, tone pots, plucking styles, etc .... But just as a guideline I find it useful to get a picture what folks do with their EQing.

For example I have that almost dogmatic impression that mids should never be more than bass/low end (as a matter of fact I try to always keep mids in the minus zone out of that fear that the bass will sound too thin), and if your experience shows me differently than I will be a tad bit more enlightened about this low end instrument.

Thanks for all input!

Edited October 14, 2015 by Che

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Che' timestamp='1444834409' post='2886522']...settings in the clean channel for some styles like funk, rock, or whatever...
[/quote]

You might get some mileage from looking at the pre-sets used by others; for EQ I generally rely on the Cockos ReaEQ as a starting point. The 'Rock Bass' 11-band shows a definite curve, with which it's easy to play around, over a looped bass part, for instance. One can raise or lower, widen, shift, plus all combinations. If there's a sound which pleases, save the result for future use. Once one is totally lost, just call up the initial pre-set and start all over again. Hours of fun with just one effect..! Rinse and repeat with other plug-ins, watching the graphic curve to 'see' what is being heard.
There's also a mixing site, where existing tracks (or 'stems'...) are already in the project; it helps to load 'em up and see what other folks have done...

[url="http://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms-mtk.htm"]Mike Senior's Mixing Site ...[/url]

Be warned: this stuff can become addictive, and one can pass one heck of a lot of time absorbing all this stuff (and having great fun..!). It's a good idea to pop outside now and again to see sunlight. Conversation with 'normal' people is also to be encouraged. Hope this helps...

[JTUK]

Quite like waht you are trying to do on examples 1 to 3... but agree, I'd replace the reverb with a touch of chorus.

As for the slap... that really doesn't work, I'm afraid.

Slap is notorious for losing the bottom end at the best of times -which is why it is often underpinned by something else like a synth bassline.
The trick is to get a slap sound working with a fingers style sound... you can use FX's but from a technical point of view, it might be better if that wasn't your default method of making it work. IMO. One reason why you want to be able to just go to a slap sound is so you can play both styles in an instant for a fill...which would be too much hassle and grief to switch in the sound all the time. Very limiting in that regard, IMO.

[Che]

Thanks Dad but that is a bit too intense for my lazy brain, maybe once I get pension and have no other things to do, then I will browse through all those

Cheers JTUK ! Will contemplate your words . Thank you!

[Twigman]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1444726979' post='2885313']
Maybe, but a drummer, old fruit. Let's see, now; 'Electronic'... 'Electronic'... Nope. Doesn't ring a bell. Carl... Carl... Carl Palmer..? Carl Allen..? Carl Coleti..? Jimmy Carl Black..? Nope, no 'Martin' there. Sorry.




[/quote]

and Lego - why did nobody mention Lego?

[Thunderbird]

[quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1444583648' post='2884283']
Pretty much what Dad said. A bit too 'wet' with reverb for my own personal taste which I think robs the low end of a little authority, but others may like that.
[/quote] +1

[Che]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1444862208' post='2886898']
and Lego - why did nobody mention Lego?
[/quote]

And Carlsberg

[Skol303]

[quote name='Che' timestamp='1444834409' post='2886522']
Thanks Skol! When you say "twiddling around with the ‘Mids’ instead" can you share your settings in the clean channel for some styles like funk, rock, or whatever you play.
[/quote]

No. That's not me trying to be unhelpful... it's just that the correct way to EQ your bass [i]might[/i] be 1% improved by whatever setting I recommend for a particular genre, but it should certainly be 99% determined by the song in question, your own amp, instrument, playing style, etc. So whatever settings I suggest will be next to useless, as there are just too many variables involved.

For example: on this track, I'm playing a P-bass with the mids at around '3 o'clock' on my amp (i.e. dialled about a quarter way up). Everything else is set flat (i.e. at zero).

https://soundcloud.com/skollob/never

...see, I told you it would be useless advice!

The best way to go about this is to shortlist a handful of songs that you want to sound like (sometimes called 'reference tracks'). Then spend some time experimenting with the setting on your bass, amp - and also your playing style - making a note of how different parameters affect the sound, and whether it's getting closer or further away from the sound you're aiming for. Write down your notes if it helps; I do.

It's a laborious process, but it gets easier the more you practice. In time you'll get quicker at achieving the sound you want, as you'll have a stock of ready made 'starting points' for dialing in different tones.

All that said, when I'm recording I now tend to keep everything flat and do all of my EQ'ing and tone work as 'post-production' (i.e. once the bass line has been recorded). I just find it much easier, but that's because I know my way around the music software I use. Again, something that takes time.

I suppose the gist of all this is about spending time "training your ears" as well as your playing hands. It's something that comes naturally when you start mixing and producing music - as Dad mentions above. Plus you get to learn a bunch of useful skills too.

So dabbling in some home music-making would be a good place to start.

Big thread on that [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/248509-beginners-guide-to-home-recording/"]right here[/url].

Have fun

[Che]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1444914433' post='2887271']

The best way to go about this is to shortlist a handful of songs that you want to sound like (sometimes called 'reference tracks'). Then spend some time experimenting with the setting on your bass, amp - and also your playing style - making a note of how different parameters affect the sound, and whether it's getting closer or further away from the sound you're aiming for.
[/quote]

Ok, this seems to be a good way to get it done, Thanks for the tip! Much appreciated!

[Che]

Improvisation on my dear Harley Benton instruments, the SC-550 single cut and the awesome JB-75 bass. Both guitar lines played through my awesome stereo sounding Digitech RP70 multi processor pedal and the bass was played through the 'Helian 1st Bass' amp plugin (clean with compressor from Reaper). Interface is Behringer U-Phoria UM2. Recorded on Reaper DAW.
Still learning how to pan and EQ multiple instruments. If you have time and are willing please do write your critique! Thank you!
https://soundcloud.com/papa-dusko/improvisation-on-guitar-and-bass

[Che]

OK, lads and gals I need help please !

I made this short tune called Wheel of Life but simply cant figure out to balance out the EQ between the instruments Im using 3 different headphones and on one there is too much bass, on other everything seems a bit dull and on the third its too thin...

Please tell me how you hear this? Much appreciated!
https://soundcloud.com/papa-dusko/wheel-of-life

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Che' timestamp='1446593673' post='2900740']...
Please tell me how you hear this? Much appreciated!...
[/quote]

Sorry, but, as mixing and production goes, it's not good; not good at all. I suppose I could list a whole lot of things I didn't get on with ('fizzy' guitars, distant, indistinct drums, almost absent bass...), but I'm not sure how much that will help, if at all. One suggestion, as you seem to be quite keen on this 'ere recording lark...
Any chance of using a 'Dropbox' account or similar and post the raw stems (individual recorded tracks...) and let us have a go at mixing them for you..? We've had a few to do over the years (here's an example from 2013 ... [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/204769-aprilmay-mix-competition-voting-complete/"]April/May Mixing Competition ...[/url]) which might give you some idea...
Just a thought, as it takes quite a lot of words to really describe what is far easier and more effective using the tracks themselves. Waddya think..? Game for putting up some stuff for us to play around with, and describe what we've done..?

[Che]

Hi Dad and thanks for replying much appreciated.

I will try and do so once I re-play the whole damn thing you see I recorded the solo guitar and drums on the same line (dumb I know). Also the bass line is a bit off and will need to figure out how to play it better. Also I never shared such files so will have to figure that one too.

You are right the fuzz rhythm guitar is way out of balance and I took it out for now. Will see what effect to use with it.

Here is a tweaked (same) version without the rhythm guitar and with cranked up bass. The guitar should sound like coming from a distance and the bass should sound closer in my imagination. Drums probably should be more up front
https://soundcloud.com/papa-dusko/wheel-of-life-without-rhythm-guitar

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Che' timestamp='1446634905' post='2900937']...The guitar should sound like coming from a distance and the bass should sound closer in my imagination. Drums probably should be more up front...
[/quote]

Yes, yes and yes.

It's better, there's no doubt, but this is where one gets to appreciate the empathy of a sound engineer in the studio There are those specialised in 'garage', others in choral work, still more in rap or classical repertoire. It's usually a good idea to have on board someone with experience (and preferably some success..!) in the genre one is aiming at. I say this because the sounds you've managed to achieve in drums, bass and guitar are about as diametrically opposed as one could hope for from those I'd be aiming for..! This is, of course, no reflection nor slight on your prowess, merely a difference in perception and objectives. I usually start with the drums (I'm principally a drummer..!) and get those right, with a couple of 'place-holder' rhythm and main line tracks, then turn to the bass and get that sorted out with the drums (mainly the bass drum, depending on context...). I'll then blend in each instrument, voice and/or effect, checking the overall feeling as I go, until we're down to minor tweaks and fine touches. I seldom, if ever, use fuzz or distortion on bass, and go quite lightly on compression. In the present case, I find the bass to be overly compressed; we can hear a distinct and uncomfortable 'click' at every stroke, and the disto takes away (to me...) the note definition too much. This is where the empathy comes in. I've crossed paths with studio engineers whose speciality was getting excellent punk-rock tones. I wouldn't know where to start; others may well find 'your' sound to be exactly fitting. It's all so difficult to guide when one is blind oneself..!
You're on the right track, although there is no 'magic bullet'. Trial and error, listening to other folk's stuff, resting your ears often and daring to try things out... It'll pay off, albeit rather slowly at first. Have you found any 'reference' tracks to compare to, records with similar sounds as those haunting you..? You'll not find anything identical, but with a few of these tracks, you can hone in on the defining nuances that you're after. Keep it up, and enjoy the hunt.

[Che]

I've found no reference tracks to compare, will try to find some (I have no favorite bands really, I know sounds stupid at best). Also I dont know any musicians let alone a sound engineer

Hell, I started playing electric instruments just under 2 years ago or so. Before it was only my classical guitar, serenading my wife SO MUCH new for me to learn with electrics I see that now! (why oh why didnt I remain in the acoustic worlds I wonder).

But you being a drummer I must ask you;
How do you EQ drums? I mean a drum machine in my case. In general would you give drums more low end or mids or ... ? I have never ever researched anything about drums so if you have some general tip for my amateur self please do share
Thank you Dad!

Edited November 4, 2015 by Che

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Che' timestamp='1446649712' post='2901145']...
How do you EQ drums?...
[/quote]

Have a look at this; you might like to put the link in 'Favourites' or similar for future reference...

[url="http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm"]Instrument Frequency Spread ...[/url]

It'll give you some idea of where the most useful ranges are for each instrument, including drums. There's more in there, too...
Again, I'm not the best person to ask, really, as I don't go tiddling around too much, whatever the instrument. The starting point, for me, is already having a decent sound from the outset which doesn't need messing around with. "Easier said than done..!", I hear you grumble, and I'd agree. However, the old adage 'You can't polish a ****' applies, too.
Virtual drums, then..? There are a few ways of getting there, and they have differing approaches. Using loops of complete patterns..? Generating stereo tracks from a MIDI editor..? Generating individual kit pieces from MIDI, in mono or stereo..? This last is the most flexible, as it gives the possibility of separate treatment of the elements (I may want a strong delay on just the snare, or a particular EQ on the bass drum etc...). It's also the most time-consuming, of course, and has its own pitfalls.
The simplest, and most effective for getting nicely-balanced decent drums would be one of the software drum programmes such as EZDrummer 2, Superior Drummer 2, BFD 3, MDrummer... The list is long; there are many more. These all come at a price, of course, but allow separation of the elements, and have extensive control over the dynamics of the strokes, and 'round robins', thus reducing the 'machine gun' effect of simple drum machines. Some even have differing samples for left and right hand or foot.
I don't hold with a simple 'EQ' approach, as you may realise, it's more a case of knowing right from the start what sound is required for each element. This goes for all the parts, for me; I wouldn't try to get a decent tone from a guitar, bass or voices unless I was initially happy with the fundamental sound. I may want to limit the extreme ranges, by 'shelving' in some cases, or lift certain ranges at times to bring 'em forward a bit, but all of my EQing is done with very little, really. Minimalist, 'less is more' would be my way (or simply 'deaf and lazy', if you wish..!). Again, I'm not sure this is helping much. If you ask ten folks, I'm sure you'll get twelve different replies..!
It's important, however, to have some 'reference' tones in your ears, so I'd advise getting hold of a few high quality sources (downloaded 'flac' files..?) of music that you like the sound of, in whatever style you can listen to, and try to emulate them, piece by piece, as an exercise. I think you already have a link to a very good mixing site, where there is a wealth of examples, stems to try out and finished mixes, all worth having a look at. There is no secret; trial and error on one's own is a good and worthy school, but a bit of time spent on research and experimentation based on the errors and successes of others can speed things up enormously, and open horizons unthought of on one's own.
Enough for now; hope this helps at least a little.

[Che]

Every little helps Thanks a bunch! Will do some home work now!

[Dad3353]

[sharedmedia=core:attachments:167485]

[Che]

Little update;
My wife watched her show tonight on Netflix so I had an excuse to go back to Reaper so I fiddled a bit more and added a new solo line + doubled the bass line (copy paste )without any FX but added more Mids and took away the low end. Now I have the 1st bass line with low end and distortion/overdrive and this new one melting into a nice thick soup So far the theme of the tune sounds good to my ear but I need some more notes in between
https://soundcloud.com/papa-dusko/wheel-of-life-extra-solo-linedoubled-bass-line

Cheers big ears