Jazzers depping in function bands.....

[Bilbo]

I have noticed a few threads where function band players are critical of 'Jazzer' deps who 'don't learn the set'. I am guilty of this. To be blunt, I don't even 'learn the set' of the function band I actually play in in as much as I regularly turn up at gigs to be presented with a chart for a 'first dance' song or a new addition to the set and am expected to deliver. There is always a tacit assumption that I will know the latest Jesse J. hit or Beyonce masterpiece but I don't; never heard it, probably never will.

In strictly professional terms, the simple truth is that 'learning' a load of new songs for one gig is not economically viable. Spending the time required to learn anything up to 40 tunes for one evening's work is not realistic (I have even been asked to learn 40 [b]band specific[/b] arrangements from a cd for one gig, FFS, No charts, just hours of listening/shedding - I didn't do it, Busked the gig. Punters loved it. MD didn't and I never worked with him again which was ok because he was a rip off artist and has exploited hundreds of musos before and since). We busk it because, at the end of the day, it rarely matters and punters aren't really listening.

Write out the dots if you want perfect arrangements flawlessly executed. I did a function recently and the MD had done exactly that and he got the product he deserved; a flawlessly executed set.

Calling Jazzers to do Jazz gigs tends to be a safe bet as there is a common thread of material that can be drawn upon at a pinch. Put a 'Functioner' in there and they will flounder because they don't know the material. Put a Jazzer in a function band and you are likely to have a similar problem. The difference is, a Jazzer has a chance of having heard 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered' whereas a Functioner is not likely to find his way around 'Chelsea Bridge' by ear.

At the end of the day the issue is preparation. Asking a dep to learn a set from scratch for one gig is an abdication of responsibility. 'I can't be bothered to write the charts out so you do it'. If you need a dep, either pay him to rehearse or get proper charts prepared. Simple as that.

[JTUK]

Most decent function bands that use deps will learn the need for a pad, but you are right.,..who wants to put the time in to produce one.

There is two sides to this sort of story... Pay is £100..and that is 4 hrs work. Nobody will have the time or inclination to
roast themselves over that..unless there are further gigs down the line or you are eager to impress.

Musical circles don't really get day-rate...but lets not head of down that path.

We have had some really good deps...but basically they'll only put time in new charts if they think they'll use them again.

TBH... for a £50 gig..you get what you get which is an understandable stand-point if not what the 'client' wants to hear.

If I booked a horn section and gave them an hrs work.at a gig.. we agree the price for the gig itself... not homework and charts as well.

Give and take and understanding of the whole deal required. IMO.

[TimR]

Agreed.

Especially when said band are 'Playing it exactly as per the recording.' - apart from the middle 8 which they leave out, and the ending because it's a fade, and the beginning because they don't have violins and it's a bit slow anyway, and the recording is the live version from their second live album, and they've played the song for so many years it's actually nothing like the original anymore anyway...



.

Edited October 14, 2015 by TimR

[colgraff]

I've depped for a good few function bands over the years and 80% of the material is familiar and, as a rule, the drummer broadcasts the endings and changes clearly enough to make up for any idiosyncrasies that may have crept in. I'm happy enough to learn the songs that I don't know because this is my hobby and I do it for the enjoyment rather than the pay but also, I'm bound to be asked to play those songs again in the future so there is an element of investment of time, too.

Having said that, I take Bilbo's point up to a point and people should also be cautious about getting a dep who is outwith their usual milieu. I say this next bit and then run for my flame-retardant overalls, there are some jazz bassists who have a slightly condescending approach to non-jazz music and have the (mistaken) attitude that because they can play jazz, they can play anything. That can grate.

[chris_b]

I know a very good drummer who was given a CD of the set. He asked how much and they said £50. He said: I'll give it a £50 listen then.

[TimR]

I've never taken the title 'Jazzer' to mean someone who plays jazz, more of a term to describe someone who busks or improvises around the tune.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1444826872' post='2886422']
I have noticed a few threads where function band players are critical of 'Jazzer' deps who 'don't learn the set'. I am guilty of this. To be blunt, I don't even 'learn the set' of the function band I actually play in in as much as I regularly turn up at gigs to be presented with a chart for a 'first dance' song or a new addition to the set and am expected to deliver. There is always a tacit assumption that I will know the latest Jesse J. hit or Beyonce masterpiece but I don't; never heard it, probably never will.

In strictly professional terms, the simple truth is that 'learning' a load of new songs for one gig is not economically viable. Spending the time required to learn anything up to 40 tunes for one evening's work is not realistic (I have even been asked to learn 40 [b]band specific[/b] arrangements from a cd for one gig, FFS, No charts, just hours of listening/shedding - I didn't do it, Busked the gig. Punters loved it. MD didn't and I never worked with him again which was ok because he was a rip off artist and has exploited hundreds of musos before and since). We busk it because, at the end of the day, it rarely matters and punters aren't really listening.

Write out the dots if you want perfect arrangements flawlessly executed. I did a function recently and the MD had done exactly that and he got the product he deserved; a flawlessly executed set.

Calling Jazzers to do Jazz gigs tends to be a safe bet as there is a common thread of material that can be drawn upon at a pinch. Put a 'Functioner' in there and they will flounder because they don't know the material. Put a Jazzer in a function band and you are likely to have a similar problem. The difference is, a Jazzer has a chance of having heard 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered' whereas a Functioner is not likely to find his way around 'Chelsea Bridge' by ear.

At the end of the day the issue is preparation. Asking a dep to learn a set from scratch for one gig is an abdication of responsibility. 'I can't be bothered to write the charts out so you do it'. If you need a dep, either pay him to rehearse or get proper charts prepared. Simple as that.
[/quote]
Spot on! Punters don't care so long as they can recognise the tune, have a wail along, and drink while doing so!

As for not learning songs, most songs are damn similar, certainly similar enough for a bass player to pick out the changes and structure quickly, the issue comes more so when the MD wants the EXACT riff from the record. At the end of the day a £50 gig, is a £50 gig, you're most likely down the dog and duck and everyones drunk, a few "Jazz notes" here and there aren't gonna harm anybody. The better the pay/communication they better I learn stuff. Poor pay and poor communication doesn't make me learn a thing.

[Chrismanbass]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1444826872' post='2886422']
I have noticed a few threads where function band players are critical of 'Jazzer' deps who 'don't learn the set'. I am guilty of this. To be blunt, I don't even 'learn the set' of the function band I actually play in in as much as I regularly turn up at gigs to be presented with a chart for a 'first dance' song or a new addition to the set and am expected to deliver. There is always a tacit assumption that I will know the latest Jesse J. hit or Beyonce masterpiece but I don't; never heard it, probably never will.

In strictly professional terms, the simple truth is that 'learning' a load of new songs for one gig is not economically viable. Spending the time required to learn anything up to 40 tunes for one evening's work is not realistic (I have even been asked to learn 40 [b]band specific[/b] arrangements from a cd for one gig, FFS, No charts, just hours of listening/shedding - I didn't do it, Busked the gig. Punters loved it. MD didn't and I never worked with him again which was ok because he was a rip off artist and has exploited hundreds of musos before and since). We busk it because, at the end of the day, it rarely matters and punters aren't really listening.

Write out the dots if you want perfect arrangements flawlessly executed. I did a function recently and the MD had done exactly that and he got the product he deserved; a flawlessly executed set.

Calling Jazzers to do Jazz gigs tends to be a safe bet as there is a common thread of material that can be drawn upon at a pinch. Put a 'Functioner' in there and they will flounder because they don't know the material. Put a Jazzer in a function band and you are likely to have a similar problem. The difference is, a Jazzer has a chance of having heard 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered' whereas a Functioner is not likely to find his way around 'Chelsea Bridge' by ear.

At the end of the day the issue is preparation. Asking a dep to learn a set from scratch for one gig is an abdication of responsibility. 'I can't be bothered to write the charts out so you do it'. If you need a dep, either pay him to rehearse or get proper charts prepared. Simple as that.
[/quote]


I guess it depends what you are doing function gigs for some people do them for financial gain which IME they aren't great payers and yes i agree its a lot of work for what it actually is

However

a lot of musos use function gigs to try out deps and musicians that they've just met or know by reputation its a stepping stone to getting booked on bigger gigs. No one wants to book someone on a 3 month tour around the UK with a named artist if they've never heard them play before. Rule one is learn the tunes if you won't bother doing that for a crappy wedding chances are you won't get the chance to do it on a bigger gig because people will always know you as the guy that turns up never prepared and blags his way through gigs and unfortunately on other gigs that just won't fly. If I book you on a function and you screw it up I'm definitely not going to book you for anything else

also i've seen plenty of players who I wouldn't consider proper jazzers blag there way through tunes following a chart on their phone its pretty common place now

[TimR]

That doesn't seem right to me.

If you've got a tour with spaces you want filled, then shouldn't you audition someone properly and tell them they're being auditioned? If that audition process includes playing in a function band then you should be preparing them so that they can show you what they can do.

You're wasting everyone's time by not giving out enough information.

[yorks5stringer]

I don't see the point, I mean anyone can knock out Moondance......

[Chrismanbass]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1444835908' post='2886539']
That doesn't seem right to me.

If you've got a tour with spaces you want filled, then shouldn't you audition someone properly and tell them they're being auditioned? If that audition process includes playing in a function band then you should be preparing them so that they can show you what they can do.

You're wasting everyone's time by not giving out enough information.
[/quote]

most of the time people book people they know

but

my point is that if there is an audition process then its generally invite only but to get an invite you have to have a reputation as a good reliable player which you won't have if you've screwed up functions with people deciding who gets invited.

IME its a very small community of people who put these king of gigs together and they tend to talk to each other.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Chrismanbass

[bassace]

Time was when I did quite a few function deps and all by ear. But stuff has moved on a lot, not necessarily for the better but it's certainly different. And a lot of it doesn't always follow the old rules. So it's not really feasible for me these days. I have a lot of respect for the good function bands. I enjoy a lot of pop and I'm constantly exasperated by jazzers who don't care for the genre and most of the time haven't heard of the artists.

While I'm on, can I give a shout for Ben Cummings, a trumpet player who I was with a few years ago in a good Dixie band. We toured all over together, in UK, Germany, Holland and the Canaries. He's now on tour with Caro Emerald and has impeccable jazz chops but can play anything, but anything. Try and catch them sometime.

[Bilbo]

Not all deps have notice. I have had many calls along the lines of....

'Gig'?

'When'?

'Now'.

[acidbass]

Most gigs I've done as a dep in function bands have featured a setlist which is around 80% the same as the last - no matter what the band. Learning a pop/rock function set will do you the world of good in many senses. I wouldn't look at it like it is learning a full set for one gig. It's great experience and will work in your favour long after the gig is done.

[Chrismanbass]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1444837698' post='2886562']
Not all deps have notice. I have had many calls along the lines of....

'Gig'?

'When'?

'Now'.
[/quote]

In which case the bandleader knows you're stepping in last minute and they're usually more forgiving of stuff if you've had time to prep then thats an entirely different matter.

[bassjim]

if i get offered a function gig, with a decent band and the money is good then i will go out of my way to learn anything i dont know and in the keys they want. i probably put more time and effort in than most but the musician in me wants to conquer the gig and keep a good rep. i always get asked back. i'd never embarass myself or the band by not knowing the material. Ive been asked,ive accepted so im gonna deliver. if its a rubbish band,playing music i dont like/know, paying rubbish money i wont take the gig in the first place.

i think if you have decided to be a musician for a living and jazz is your main thing then you have to accept what goes with the territory. not learning the material cause the whole set up is "beneath you" and cant be "justified" shows contempt (i think anyway) towards the very people that you are playing with and playing to/at, (IMO). if I have a dep player come in on my regular gig i accept the player might not play every thing 100% but i do expect they have done a reasonable amount of homework. If they stand/sit there casually busking with a view that cause its not enough money ect...... I would question why they accepted the gig in the firstplace. i wouldnt have advertised it as : dep (insert instrument here) required for £50.00/£200.00 gig. its totatly cool if you casually busk your way through,cause lets face it, no one will notice or care. whilst your at it why dont i come and pick you up and take you to and from the gig and provide you with breakfast in bed the following day for your trouble. you poor poor musician. all those hours you put in and all you get is this tiny amount of lolly. sorry folks but if its that bad get a day job!!! (IMO )

of course if its a "can you help out, we need a bass player right now" with no notice then any thing you play well is a bonus and all bets are off.

Edited October 14, 2015 by bassjim

[colgraff]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1444837698' post='2886562']
Not all deps have notice. I have had many calls along the lines of....

'Gig'?

'When'?

'Now'.
[/quote]
I've had a few of them. The scariest was when I was called up to play for a musical pantomime with all original music as the bassist had broken his arm. I had only been playing a couple of years and I didn't really have time to get scared about what had committed to. On the bus ride into town, I had convinced myself that there wouldn't be many people there. Full house!

[Happy Jack]

Ah, in that case it's the 'Now' rate ...

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1444837698' post='2886562']
Not all deps have notice. I have had many calls along the lines of....

'Gig'?

'When'?

'Now'.
[/quote]

One time, I arrived to watch the gig. Guitarist says 'hi, you don't happen to have brought a bass with you do you?' Turned out their bassist had the date wrong and was in Norway.

It could have been worse.

[acidbass]

[quote]If they stand/sit there casually busking with a view that cause its not enough money ect...... I would question why they accepted the gig in the firstplace. i wouldnt have advertised it as : dep (insert instrument here) required for £50.00/£200.00 gig[/quote]

I once had a dep who turned up in foul form and complained that if he were running the gig, he would definitely be paying the musicians £x amount. This was despite him having agreed in advance to do the gig for a fee. He grumbled the whole night and needless to say, was never asked back again. I am aware that despite considering himself a professional player, he regularly sits in on the busy nights of the week when others are out gigging. I wonder why! There is a very definite difference in someone who makes a living from music, and a [u]professional [/u]bass player.

[Truckstop]

I always try my best whether it's a £50 pub gig or a £300 corporate function. Why wouldn't you? I hate being unprepared and I hate letting people down.

[Bilbo]

I would have no problem learning one or two tunes but 40? It would take me weeks. As if I haven't got other things to do. My point is MY professionalism is drawn into question because I haven't got about 20 hours available to learn an evening's material whereas the MD's professionalism is NOT drawn into question despite the fact that s/he cannot be arsed or lacks the skills to put together a pad.

For the record, when I did Karl Jenkin's The Peacemakers last year and Jesus Christ Superstar the year before, I spent hours with the pads making sure I was ready. The charts were perfect and I had something to work with. If I had just been given cds and told the 'learn it', I would have told them to f*** off.

(Interestingly, on the Jenkins gig, I wonder how many of the 20+ orchestral musicians and 60+ choir members were given a cd and told to work out their own parts? (PS it was one gig on one night)

[Muzz]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1444898114' post='2887031']
I always try my best whether it's a £50 pub gig or a £300 corporate function. Why wouldn't you? I hate being unprepared and I hate letting people down.
[/quote]

This, but more because I hate letting myself down. Folk won't remember the short notice, or the lack of communication, they'll remember the hapless bassist. And by 'folk', I don't mean the punters, obviously: they won't remember there was a bassist there at all...

EDIT: Yeah, time permitting, of course. I'm in the fortunate position wherein I pay my mortgage from other sources than playing music, so I can pick and choose what gigs I take, and I'll turn down anything I don't think I can do justice to. I was offered a very short-notice blues gig a while ago which I turned down because not only do I not enjoy blues, I know I'm not well enough versed in it as a genre (because I don't like it) to bring anything other than muddled winging, which no-one would have appreciated. Possibly. I know I wouldn't have...


As a side note, I notice no-one's given any attention to listening to the tone used in certain songs...if you want to produce a convincing performance of a song, then at least an attempt to recreate the tone of the original (if it's at all iconic or distinct) is pretty important, which does require a listen. Punters might not care about our core bass tone, but they'll appreciate when a song played by the band sounds like the one they're familiar with. It's all about degrees, but if I'm following Never Too Much with Folsom Prison Blues, I at least have a twitch of the tone knobs...

Edited October 15, 2015 by Muzz

[Truckstop]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1444899123' post='2887042']
I would have no problem learning one or two tunes but 40? It would take me weeks. As if I haven't got other things to do. My point is MY professionalism is drawn into question because I haven't got about 20 hours available to learn an evening's material whereas the MD's professionalism is NOT drawn into question despite the fact that s/he cannot be arsed or lacks the skills to put together a pad.

... The charts were perfect and I had something to work with. If I had just been given cds and told the 'learn it', I would have told them to f*** off.
[/quote]

Ah, I see! Point taken

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444899905' post='2887053']
As a side note, I notice no-one's given any attention to listening to the tone used in certain songs...if you want to produce a convincing performance of a song, then at least an attempt to recreate the tone of the original (if it's at all iconic or distinct) is pretty important, which does require a listen. Punters might not care about our core bass tone, but they'll appreciate when a song played by the band sounds like the one they're familiar with. It's all about degrees, but if I'm following Never Too Much with Folsom Prison Blues, I at least have a twitch of the tone knobs...
[/quote]

You are 'avin' a giraffe!!

I would no more seek to replicate the 'tone' of the original tunes than I would dress up as the bass player who played on the original recording of each track!!