Jazzers depping in function bands.....

[Muzz]

Actually, why not?

Edited October 15, 2015 by Muzz

[Bilbo]

Because I am not Carol Kaye, Bob Babbitt, Pino Palladino, James Jamerson, Freddie Washington, Nathan East, Abraham Laboriel, Duck Dunn.....

You get my point.

[JTUK]

Fuel and rehearsals are a factor as well... altho you'll be lucky to get a dep along to a rehearsal altho it may well
depends how you can split down the fee...pay £200 and some of that can go to paying them to rehearse but for
£50..they turn up and introduce themselves on the night.
I wouldn't use a dep ...or dep for, a gig that wasn't 'introduced'....but then again, many FB dep groups are full of strangers.
It could be fraught and depends how desperate the situation is.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1444899123' post='2887042']
I would have no problem learning one or two tunes but 40? It would take me weeks. As if I haven't got other things to do. My point is MY professionalism is drawn into question because I haven't got about 20 hours available to learn an evening's material whereas the MD's professionalism is NOT drawn into question despite the fact that s/he cannot be arsed or lacks the skills to put together a pad.

For the record, when I did Karl Jenkin's The Peacemakers last year and Jesus Christ Superstar the year before, I spent hours with the pads making sure I was ready. The charts were perfect and I had something to work with. If I had just been given cds and told the 'learn it', I would have told them to f*** off.

(Interestingly, on the Jenkins gig, I wonder how many of the 20+ orchestral musicians and 60+ choir members were given a cd and told to work out their own parts? (PS it was one gig on one night)
[/quote]
Spot on again Mr Bilbo. Why should we as Deps be told to learn a song from the tracks. That's a method that can take bloody hours for one song! If you're asking for a Dep the most professional thing to do is to ask what they would like in preparation for the gig. That's the LEAST I expect when talking to bands about Depping.
[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444899905' post='2887053']
As a side note, I notice no-one's given any attention to listening to the tone used in certain songs...if you want to produce a convincing performance of a song, then at least an attempt to recreate the tone of the original (if it's at all iconic or distinct) is pretty important, which does require a listen. Punters might not care about our core bass tone, but they'll appreciate when a song played by the band sounds like the one they're familiar with. It's all about degrees, but if I'm following Never Too Much with Folsom Prison Blues, I at least have a twitch of the tone knobs...
[/quote]
Tone is largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. Yes it's pleasing to have it sounding perfect, but it never will as I'm not (Insert bass players name here) I'm me, I sound like me, but I can play (Insert bass players name here) lines pretty well.

[ambient]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444899905' post='2887053']


This, but more because I hate letting myself down. Folk won't remember the short notice, or the lack of communication, they'll remember the hapless bassist. And by 'folk', I don't mean the punters, obviously: they won't remember there was a bassist there at all...

EDIT: Yeah, time permitting, of course. I'm in the fortunate position wherein I pay my mortgage from other sources than playing music, so I can pick and choose what gigs I take, and I'll turn down anything I don't think I can do justice to. I was offered a very short-notice blues gig a while ago which I turned down because not only do I not enjoy blues, I know I'm not well enough versed in it as a genre (because I don't like it) to bring anything other than muddled winging, which no-one would have appreciated. Possibly. I know I wouldn't have...


As a side note, I notice no-one's given any attention to listening to the tone used in certain songs...if you want to produce a convincing performance of a song, then at least an attempt to recreate the tone of the original (if it's at all iconic or distinct) is pretty important, which does require a listen. Punters might not care about our core bass tone, but they'll appreciate when a song played by the band sounds like the one they're familiar with. It's all about degrees, but if I'm following Never Too Much with Folsom Prison Blues, I at least have a twitch of the tone knobs...
[/quote]

That's quite hilarious, sorry. Tweaking the tone knob is not going to get you sounding like James Jamerson, or Pino or anyone but you with a different tone.

And who's even going to notice ?

You could wheel out your whatever P bass with 20 year old strings for the Motown medley, but what about the guitar sound, or the horns or the keyboard sounds ? Are the brass stabs going to sound authentic played on a Yamaha keyboard ?

I totally agree with Bilbo. I've done dep gigs where I'm expected to learn 40 or so songs. One even asked me if I'd let them keep the charts that I'd painstakingly written out for the gig, so they'd have it for use in the future.

[TimR]

I did a three hour gig for one band.

The communication should have sounded alarm bells. I had been recommended by another player who told me it would be well within my capabilities. All standards.

I was given a number to call, I tried it every other day for the two weeks leading up to the gig. Finally got through to the guy on the Monday and asked if he had a set list.

Don't worry, it's all the usual numbers, the address is ..., wear a plain bright coloured shirt and black trousers and shoes. See you there. Bye.

I turned up, was introduced to the guys and told to watch the rhythm guitarists hands for the changes, don't play anything flash, here's your money.

Standards? Seriously, I don't think I had heard 90% of the set before let alone played it. Watch the guitarists hands? From the back of the stage? A very tough gig.

[chris_b]

When depping I always ask for a set list. I was told on one gig that they just played the "usual stuff". "The guitarist calls out the numbers and we just play them."

I phoned again asking for a set list and was told that they weren't very happy as they were "expecting a professional player".

I cancelled right there.

[Muzz]

Wow. I must remember that excuse for the next time I can't be bothered learning a line... "I know I'm only playing the roots...who do you think I am? Bob Babbitt? No-one's going to notice..."

For the record, when we play a song, we make sure the keys sound as like the original as possible, and they do...it's all done with computers nowadays, you know, and it's not very hard...

We had a dep guitarist who just used the same sound for all the songs, same for Guns and Roses as for a Johnny Cash song. It sounded crap. We spoke to him about it, and although to his credit he didn't try and laugh it off or attempt to assume any sort of moral high ground about it, he didn't get a second call.

And yeah, I do sound like me most of the time, but when I dial in a Marcus sound and slap Never Too Much, or mute it down and play root fifths for a country song, I don't sound like me. How close I sound to Marcus, for example, is open to debate, but it's different and it's closer than sounding like me.

Maybe my standards are too high.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Muzz

[TimR]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444910390' post='2887208']
Wow. I must remember that excuse for the next time I can't be bothered learning a line... "I know I'm only playing the roots...who do you think I am? Bob Babbitt? No-one's going to notice..."

For the record, when we play a song, we make sure the keys sound as like the original as possible, and they do...it's all done with computers nowadays, you know, and it's not very hard...

We had a dep guitarist who just used the same sound for all the songs, same for Guns and Roses as for a Johnny Cash song. It sounded crap. We spoke to him about it, and although to his credit he didn't try and laugh it off or attempt to assume any sort of moral high ground about it, he didn't get a second call.

And yeah, I do sound like me most of the time, but when I dial in a Marcus sound and slap Never Too Much, or mute it down and play root fifths for a country song, I don't sound like me. How close I sound to Marcus, for example, is open to debate, but it's different and it's closer than sounding like me.

Maybe my standards are too high.
[/quote]

The problem is that often you can sound like you're trying too hard.

Does your singer do impressions?

[colgraff]

Like Muzz,

I try to find a sound that is reasonably close to the original and also to play on the style of the original bassist. It can be as little as using a certain pedal or using a pick rather than fingers because that is how the original artist played.

I started doing this after playing with a band where the guitarist had created / downloaded the guitar style for each track we played and the change in the quality of the song was subtle but also noticeable and it really raised out game.

They are little differences but every little helps.

[Muzz]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1444913763' post='2887256']
The problem is that often you can sound like you're trying too hard.

Does your singer do impressions?
[/quote]

Trying too hard? Really? I've never had any feedback from the function band which said "We hired them for our function, they were great, but they sounded like they were trying too hard."

The singers don't do impressions, that pretty much wouldn't be possible given the range of music we play, but they put a lot of effort into fronting the band, which is more important.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1444907163' post='2887154']
One even asked me if I'd let them keep the charts that I'd painstakingly written out for the gig, so they'd have it for use in the future.
[/quote]

Charge them an hourly rate for the production of the paperwork!

Playing a funk line with your thumb or playing a tumbao with a muted tone is not what I would describe as sounding like the original, it would be genre specific alterations. To my mind, altering technique to suit a tune by playing nearer the neck pick up on a swing tune, picking up a fretless for a ballad etc are routine and not gig specific. Rolling off the top end for a reggae feel etc. This doesn't need rehearsing, hours of preparation or even mentioning, it just needs a sense of context.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1444915245' post='2887283']
[b]Charge them an hourly rate for the production of the paperwork![/b]

Playing a funk line with your thumb or playing a tumbao with a muted tone is not what I would describe as sounding like the original, it would be genre specific alterations. To my mind, altering technique to suit a tune by playing nearer the neck pick up on a swing tune, picking up a fretless for a ballad etc are routine and not gig specific. Rolling off the top end for a reggae feel etc. This doesn't need rehearsing, hours of preparation or even mentioning, it just needs a sense of context.
[/quote]

Certainly would have to worth a fee...and I can't see why the band wouldn't be pleased to pay it.

But then there are lot of jokers around...

[TimR]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444914928' post='2887280']


Trying too hard? Really? I've never had any feedback from the function band which said "We hired them for our function, they were great, but they sounded like they were trying too hard."

The singers don't do impressions, that pretty much wouldn't be possible given the range of music we play, but they put a lot of effort into fronting the band, which is more important.
[/quote]

Yes. It's the equivalent of actors over-acting. You can't quite put your finger on it but it's not a natural thing.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1444919367' post='2887354']
Yes. It's the equivalent of actors over-acting. You can't quite put your finger on it but it's not a natural thing.
[/quote]
On the topic of actors, you wouldn't expect an actor to be able to turn up to the first day of a huge budget shoot having only watched the directors previous films or having seen the 1962 version and expect them to know all the lines perfectly AND sound EXACTLY like Cary Grant.

It's the same for music, guidance and direction is needed and so is the understanding that the Dep is not the bloke from the record, he may well be able to reproduce those lines on the album, but no matter how much you wish he could, he'll never sound spot on.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1444923193' post='2887400'] On the topic of actors, you wouldn't expect an actor to be able to turn up to the first day of a huge budget shoot having only watched the directors previous films or having seen the 1962 version and expect them to know all the lines perfectly AND sound EXACTLY like Cary Grant. [/quote]

Absolutely brilliant analogy!!

[Muzz]

Yep, the actor thing's a good analogy: I think if you turned up on a huge budget shoot and said "I see from the script it's a gritty tale of life in the Mississippi Bayou , but I only do Welsh. I sound like me whatever I try, I'm not Matthew McConnaheyheyhey, you know. And besides, no-one'll notice." you'd be, like our least favourite internet drummer, at the wrong gig...

[Muzz]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1444919367' post='2887354']
Yes. It's the equivalent of actors over-acting. You can't quite put your finger on it but it's not a natural thing.
[/quote]

So you'd turn to a friend in the audience at a function gig and say "It's not very...natural, is it?"

Edited October 15, 2015 by Muzz

[TimR]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444932459' post='2887501']


So you'd turn to a friend in the audience at a function gig and say "It's not very...natural, is it?"
[/quote]

Yes. I would and have done.

[TimR]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444932314' post='2887498']
Yep, the actor thing's a good analogy: I think if you turned up on a huge budget shoot and said "I see from the script it's a gritty tale of life in the Mississippi Bayou , but I only do Welsh. I sound like me whatever I try, I'm not Matthew McConnaheyheyhey, you know. And besides, no-one'll notice." you'd be, like our least favourite internet drummer, at the wrong gig...
[/quote]

I think maybe we're at cross purposes here.

It's the difference between doing a welsh accent for a Tom Jones set or doing an impression of Tom Jones, or actually just singing the song naturally.

Is prefer it naturally thanks.

If I wanted a bad impression I'd go to a cabaret evening to see a Tom Jones impersonator, if I wanted Tom Jones I'd go to a Tom Jones gig or get a DJ.

It's an age old debate. When I hear a band I want to hear something different, not someone making arbitrary descisions on which parts they're going to copy exactly note for note and timbre for timbre and which bits they're going to busk.

The singer doesn't do impressions. The drummer doesn't swap kits.

[lojo]

I don't read so perhaps not qualified to comment , but have been the only non reader in a working band etc etc and whilst I'm always impressed when people can covert dots in sound , there is nothing like a run through rehearsal to really get tight , confident and the dynamics of certain sections right , especially when your covering really layered produced songs, with a basic 4 instruments.


With regard to the make it your own debate, I think both sides work, I love being in a band that tries to emulate well, and equally love the other creative approach. Both work for me, just different sports

Edited October 16, 2015 by lojo

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1444902716' post='2887093']
You are 'avin' a giraffe!!

I would no more seek to replicate the 'tone' of the original tunes than I would dress up as the bass player who played on the original recording of each track!!
[/quote]

I play in a couple of covers bands (amongst others) with pretty wide-ranging setlists. I'm glad I have a choice of pickups, a tone knob and a pick, 'cos the same tone across all of them just isn't going to feel right. Most of the punters won't notice, but the band will.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1444978689' post='2887729']


I play in a couple of covers bands (amongst others) with pretty wide-ranging setlists. I'm glad I have a choice of pickups, a tone knob and a pick, 'cos the same tone across all of them just isn't going to feel right. Most of the punters won't notice, but the band will.
[/quote]
Don't think Bilbo is saying leave the settings alone for every song, more that he won't spend LOADS of time to figure out the intricacies of the tone on the track, especially when a ball park area is good enough!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1444981337' post='2887758']
Don't think Bilbo is saying leave the settings alone for every song, more that he won't spend LOADS of time to figure out the intricacies of the tone on the track, especially when a ball park area is good enough!
[/quote]

Happy to be told otherwise, but that's not how I read it.

[TimR]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1444981607' post='2887759']


Happy to be told otherwise, but that's not how I read it.
[/quote]

Me too. But that's all in the fingers. I don't have time between numbers to be fiddling with tone controls and wondering whether the bass is still going to be balanced with the rest of the band.

As Bilbo says, these are playing subtleties that should occur 'naturally' when you're playing.

.

Edited October 16, 2015 by TimR