Luthier vs Factory/Mass Produced

[DavidMcKay]

Hi All


I was chatting with a fellow BC'er and we came to the conclusion that hand-made guitars produced by expert luthiers - what you may call boutique - aren't fetching their market value when being sold, whereas the usual suspects - Musicman, Fender, and such like - always seem to do well on the For Sale thread.

Do you agree with this position? If not - then why aren't the boutique guitars fetching what they should? If so - then why don't more players consider hand-made over mass produced?

If we extrapolated this argument to furniture then I am sure most people would go for bespoke, hand crafted as a first choice.

[LukeFRC]

Furniture in your house maybe... but in a office or workplace a high quality reliable and tested mass produced option might be better.

also if you look at the secondhand prices of custom built furnature i think its more to do with the nature of custom made items...

[TheGreek]

Seems like an injustice when you have skilled craftsmen and artisans toiling over their creations, perfecting them into individual and unique masterpieces which when resold achieve significantly less than their original prices. As an example, I've recently seen ACGs being sold for £600-800 here - I've no idea how many hours Alan puts into each of his creations but the resale prices suggest that his work is valued at less than I pay my local mechanic to service my car.

I'm lucky enough to own several bespoke basses and I appreciate and acknowledge the skill and craftsmanship that goes into each, however the resale values of these are probably far less than a Fender/Musicman/ Warwick which are mass produced by people who take less care and have little appreciation of the subtleties of their design. To the bespoke custom builder it's their art, to employees at Fender, and the like, it's their job.

I remember how poor the build quality of 70s Fenders was, however these now command many hundreds of pounds despite this. Yet I eventually (after several months of trying to sell it here) traded my hand made bespoke Shuker for a value of around £800 - it was superior to 99.999% of mass produced Fenders which fetch significantly more. I struggle to understand this.

To Alan, Bernie Goodfellow, Jens Ritter [i]et al[/i], I salute you - you create instruments that inspire me (and hopefully many others) in a way that mass produced instruments never can and I thank you for that.

Edited October 14, 2015 by TheGreek

[DavidMcKay]

Fair point LukeFRC


Does this suggest that if you are considering custom then you better be in it for the long haul or else you stand to make a significant loss?

I am sure many of the 'big guns' would agree with your point regarding reliability and testing.

[DavidMcKay]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1444857810' post='2886832']
Seems like an injustice when you have skilled craftsmen and artisans toiling over their creations, perfecting them into individual and unique masterpieces which when resold achieve significantly less than their original prices. As an example, I've recently seen ACGs being sold for £600-800 here - I've no idea how many hours Alan puts into each of his creations but the resale prices suggest that his work is valued at less than I pay my local mechanic to service my car.

I'm lucky enough to own several bespoke basses and I appreciate and acknowledge the skill and craftsmanship that goes into each, however the resale values of these are probably far less than a Fender/Musicman/ Warwick which are mass produced by people who take less care and have little appreciation of the subtleties of their design. To the bespoke custom builder it's their art, to employees at Fender, and the like, it's their job.

I remember how poor the build quality of 70s Fenders was, however these now command many hundreds of pounds despite this. Yet I eventually (after several months of trying to sell it here) traded my hand made bespoke Shuker for a value of around £800 - it was superior to 99.999% of mass produced Fenders which fetch significantly more. I struggle to understand this.

To Alan, Bernie Goodfellow, Jens Ritter [i]et al[/i], I salute you - you create instruments that inspire me (and hopefully many others) in a way that mass produced instruments never can and I thank you for that.
[/quote]

Hi The Greek

Your comments certainly resonate with me - but let me play Devil's Advocate.

The original luthiers sold the instruments for a tidy sum - they got what they were asking for. What does it matter that the second hand market doesn't realise anything close to this? No skin off their (original luthier's) nose.

[Twigman]

It's like any other market....the high end stuff depreciates quicker than the mid range stuff.
Take cars for instance ,luxury top of the range Mercs and BMW 6 or 7 series, even the likes of Ferrari and lamborghini take huge depreciation hits as soon as they hit the road.

Why should basses be any different?

Edited October 14, 2015 by Twigman

[DavidMcKay]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1444859086' post='2886851']
It's like any other market....the high end stuff depreciates quicker than the mid range stuff.
Take cars for instance ,luxury top of the range Mercs and BMW 6 or 7 series, even the likes of Ferrari and lamborghini take huge depreciation hits as soon as they hit the road.

Why should basses be any different?
[/quote]

I guess I'm saying that the bespoke stuff bottoms out lower than the trade names / usual suspects.

Seems like people are prepared to pay a bit more for 'labels' than a comparable custom job once they are in the second hand bracket.

[Twigman]

[quote name='DavidMcKay' timestamp='1444859339' post='2886856']
I guess I'm saying that the bespoke stuff bottoms out lower than the trade names / usual suspects.

Seems like people are prepared to pay a bit more for 'labels' than a comparable custom job once they are in the second hand bracket.
[/quote]
Bespoke is just that though...the original buyer's specification...one man's heaven is another man's hell.
The one thing I notice with a lot of high end boutique basses is what appalling taste the original purchaser must've had...rarely do any appeal aesthetically.

With the 'usual suspects' you know what you're getting.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Twigman

[ribbetingfrog]

When buying a boutique bass you are paying for a bespoke bass custom made to your requirements.
As the second owner, it is just someone else's used bass (albeit a very nice one), not anywhere near as special.

Second hand values are about a lot more than actual quality. More influenced by the perceived reliable quality a brand name carries.

[Twigman]

[quote name='DavidMcKay' timestamp='1444859339' post='2886856']
I guess I'm saying that the bespoke stuff bottoms out lower than the trade names / usual suspects.


[/quote]

Same is true for many of the luxury cars...BMW 6/7 series go for less than high specced 3 series after a few years....

[DavidMcKay]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1444859571' post='2886861']
Bespoke is just that though...the original buyer's specification...one man's heaven is another man's hell.
The one thing I notice with a lot of high end boutique basses is what appalling taste the original purchaser must've had...rarely do any appeal aesthetically.

With the 'usual suspects' you know what you're getting.
[/quote]

I get that for the more 'way out' specced guitars but a lot of the boutique basses are a combination of high end components configured to suit, as opposed to crafted by angels from 'golden unicorn horns' and such like!

[Twigman]

[quote name='DavidMcKay' timestamp='1444860048' post='2886867']
I get that for the more 'way out' specced guitars but a lot of the boutique basses are a combination of high end components configured to suit, as opposed to crafted by angels from 'golden unicorn horns' and such like!
[/quote]
And many with figured 'coffee table' tops....and fancy woodwork...and then there's the crazy shapes (eg Ritter) and the FAT neck profiles (eg Spector).....

I guess I just like 4 strings/ slim profile narrow necks and plain colours...and I guess I'm not alone.

Demand for the boutique basses is lower than the usual suspects and so the secondhand price has to reflect this.
basic market economics.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Twigman

[DavidMcKay]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1444860349' post='2886869']
And many with figured 'coffee table' tops....and fancy woodwork...and then there's the crazy shapes (eg Ritter) and the FAT neck profiles (eg Spector).....

I guess I just like 4 strings/ slim profile narrow necks and plain colours...and I guess I'm not alone.
[/quote]

Yep - I get that.

[Phil Starr]

I've never even considered something like this. I really wouldn't know what I'm buying or recognise any particular luthier by name so for me i just read any ad as 'unknown make'. If that is true of other people then that's one reason for the lack of interest. I guess new they'd be out of my price bracket so there has been no point in finding out about something I'd never be able to afford. I wnder how many bargains have passed me by....

[DavidMcKay]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1444861548' post='2886889']
I've never even considered something like this. I really wouldn't know what I'm buying or recognise any particular luthier by name so for me i just read any ad as 'unknown make'. If that is true of other people then that's one reason for the lack of interest. I guess new they'd be out of my price bracket so there has been no point in finding out about something I'd never be able to afford. I wnder how many bargains have passed me by....
[/quote]

Me too Phil. I could never afford new - but I could afford second hand. And that is where knowing names, luthiers and reputations has been important.

Little bit of homework reaps dividends.

[TrevorR]

It is just the way that markets work (and that is not always in a rational way). The market price for an item is just whatever the market will bear at any point in time.

I was having a chat over a cuppa last week with a friend who is an auction appraiser. He's currently curating the auction of a very famous person's memorabilia collection. It was interesting to hear him talking about Ho sprites change over time. How, for instance, about 15-20 years ago Buddy Holly merchandise commanded huge premiums in auctions. The same items are currently worth half to two thirds what they were back then. The market has peaked, the buyers now aren't buying that stuff. On the other hand, Kurt Cobain, Sid Vicious or other similar vintage gear is more sought after and now commands higher prices.

A second hand Ritter or Carl Thompson or whatever boutique luthier built bass currently commands £XXXX on the second hand market. If any of those makers walked under a bus tomorrow the second hand market prices would sky rocket - there would have been no change in the quality of the basses available but the market would bear higher prices through a range of emotional and economic factors. They would be seen as rarities because no more would be made. They wouldn't be any better basses or have more intrinsic value. Look at what happened to Zemaitis instrument prices once he died...

On average second hand basses achieve whatever the market decides they will achieve and that is rarely directly proportional to the type of factors which have been stated here as things which should count towards their value. Crazy, but that's markets for you.

[Oldman]

In my experience, and as a rule of thumb, a purchased item loses its sellers margin the minute you take ownership, especially in the car market. When you want to buy, are keen to buy an item " there's non available Sir" you pays the going price, when you want to sell " the markets swamped Sir " you take a hit. How big a hit depends upon the urgency to sell! In the Bass world 'Early Adopters' pay the price so we second hand buyers can experience what may be out of our reach Harry Brand Spankers....

Market Driven, as the man sez

Just sayin'

[CamdenRob]

Mass produced instruments are by definition more popular because there are so many of them... They wouldn't be mass produced if there was no market for them and as basses like the P, J and Ray have been responsible for the vast majority of recorded bass over the years, when most people think of bass they think of that sort of tone and the instruments that produce it.

The only time an esoteric bass like a Wal is any use is if you have the freedom to be using something that sounds a bit different. It wouldn't be any good for dad rock pub covers and neither would it be any use if you joined an established band with a certain image and sound they wanted you to continue. I only play bass in bands where I have total control of what I am playing and how it sounds, so I can get away with having a different tone to the extablished norm. I just play what I like with a tone that I think works for my style of playing.

As for manufacturing you could argue that a machine is more precise than stuff built by hand... however i did mention on another thread the other day that asides from quality of materials, I can't see there being a huge difference in the manufacturing process in the Fender and Harley Benton factories...

Mass produced instruments will always retain their value as there is a greater demand for them.

Edited October 15, 2015 by CamdenRob

[FuNkShUi]

There are some massive bargains to be had in the classifieds if you are willing to "take a risk" on a less well known brand/luthier for sure!
Do a bit of research and you will be laughing. Custom builds going for less than £1000 cant be bad

[ead]

[quote name='DavidMcKay' timestamp='1444856176' post='2886814']
Hi All


I was chatting with a fellow BC'er and we came to the conclusion that hand-made guitars produced by expert luthiers - what you may call boutique - aren't fetching their market value when being sold, whereas the usual suspects - Musicman, Fender, and such like - always seem to do well on the For Sale thread.

Do you agree with this position? If not - then why aren't the boutique guitars fetching what they should? If so - then why don't more players consider hand-made over mass produced?

If we extrapolated this argument to furniture then I am sure most people would go for bespoke, hand crafted as a first choice.
[/quote]


I think it depends on what you define as market value. As mentioned above a lot of luthier-made instruments are to an individuals’ personal spec. and thus will not necessarily appeal to another player; taste is a very subjective thing and is neither good or bad in my view, just personal. The more mass produced basses are very much a known quantity which must help I guess.

I am fortunate to own a few ACG basses. With one possible exception the ones in my possession now will never appear on the market place (although I did get through a few to really understand what I was after). I think if you don't mind looking at wood you can get some fabulous basses for not much money on here.

It would be interesting to see how depreciation works for basses in a wider context. I have limited experience, however the two most recent comparisons I would make would be:

Fender RW Jazz: New about £1,150 is, market value c.£650 to £700 based on recent sold posts so now worth about 60% of new price. ACGs typically seem to go for around 55% to 60% of their new cost in my experience. One this very limited snapshot it would appear that the gap may not be as wide as one might imagine.

Can anybody else throw some examples into the pot?

Edited October 15, 2015 by ead

[Mykesbass]

I think there is a slight flaw in your argument David. It is not just of the luthier builds doing badly, it is a couple of name brands that hold on to their value - particularly Fender. Look at the way Cort, Aria, Ibanez and Yamaha plunge in value compared to Fender's own budget offering, which many feel are far inferior to the aforementioned brands.

Enjoying your topics by the way, controversy without trolling in my opinion.

[DavidMcKay]

I remember when I got my first ACG - second hand naturally as I couldn't afford new - and I was worried that it would look or feel 'hand made', either the full guitar or certain components/parts.

I had previously had a couple of Tanglewood Overwaters and a Hohner Jack so I certainly knew what kind of finish to expect on a mass produced instrument.

Well to be honest I was completely blown away by the ACG. First thing that struck me was the feel of the neck. It had a sort of Matt finish and it felt as if it had been oiled and polished as opposed to being lacquered and varnished. Even just to the touch if felt really nice. Now I know I am being highly subjective here, but for me it illustrated the quality of finish you get from a good custom guitar, which in turn makes you feel good about the guitar - which can only help your playing.

Having messed about with many a bass in the guitar shops of Glasgow there aren't many I've seen that can touch that type of finish.

And when I see players paying £600 to £700 for their instruments I do wonder if they have even considered second hand boutique/custom.

I'm not trying to bash the 'big boys' here. They've earned their place competing in the open market.

Edited October 15, 2015 by DavidMcKay

[Twigman]

I prefer what I call the best of both worlds: self build a Warmoth custom (I've got 3).

You get the 'usual suspects' shapes and necks....but put a satin nitro finish on the neck and you get the matte non-sticky tactile finish that you won'r get off the shelf.
You can load the body and neck with high end parts - I use babicz bridges and gotoh gbr690 aluminium tuners...and choose any pickup configuration you like and load it with any of the aftermarket preamps.

Set it up properly and you'll end up with a quality bitsa that's better than any Fender...

Downside is you'll never recoup anywhere near the initial outlay when selling,.

[discreet]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1444892365' post='2886968']
...basses like the P, J and Ray have been responsible for the vast majority of recorded bass over the years, when most people think of bass they think of that sort of tone and the instruments that produce it.
[/quote]
[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1444857810' post='2886832']
I remember how poor the build quality of 70s Fenders was, however these now command many hundreds of pounds despite this.
[/quote]

Digressing slightly for a second.. my 70s Fender is poorly-built (has the neck-joint gape - would be suspicious if it didn't!). However I've owned and played many other basses, including one or two more esoteric and expensive offerings... yet the 70s P is my go-to bass. At the moment it's my ONLY bass. It's the one I prefer to play and I like the sound I get from it. So what's that about?

I'd say that if you play electric bass guitar in the usual genres, i.e. rock, pop, funk, soul, r'n'b, folk, etc. etc. then you don't need anything other than a P or a J bass or their non-Fender equivalents. As CR says above, that's the sound of 99% of recorded music and the bass sound that a lot of people have in their heads. Anything more expensive or better-made is purely down to personal taste... isn't it?

Using the car analogy again, it's nice to have a Merc or other high-end car, but its basic function is to get you from one place to another and keep you dry and warm. A Ford Focus will do that. Is the P Bass the Ford Focus of the bass world? Or in my case, the British Leyland Morris Marina?

[TrevorR]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1444904694' post='2887116']

...then you don't need anything other than a P or a J bass or their non-Fender equivalents... ...Anything more expensive or better-made is purely down to personal taste... isn't it?

[/quote]

Yup, as so often in such debates it comes down to the "needs"/"fancies" decision. For my car it's always been a "needs" decision. My basses have largely been in the "fancies" camp...