A little headscratcher

[leftybassman392]

A bit of a spinoff from something I posted in the nearby 'Plato' thread a little while ago.

Simple question: what makes a sound musical - or not?

No hidden meanings or trick questions, no subterfuge. I haven't been surfing the net looking for anything of the 'how to waste peoples' time online' variety.

If you had to write a dictionary definition of the word 'musical' specifically in relation to a single sound, what would you write?

Tell you what, I'll even get you started:

"A sound is musical if..."

Edited October 18, 2015 by leftybassman392

[discreet]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1445167072' post='2889196']
"A sound is musical if..."
[/quote]

You think it is.

[ahpook]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1445167072' post='2889196']
"A sound is musical if..."
[/quote]

... I consider it so.

It's a bit like 'What is art ?' - the ultimate answer is "It is what we say it is"

Edited October 18, 2015 by ahpook

[Raslee]

If it has utility 😱

[discreet]

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1445167901' post='2889209']
It's a bit like 'What is art ?' - the ultimate answer is "It is what we say it is"
[/quote]

Had a chemically-assisted days-long long discussion about this many years ago and came to the conclusion that either everything is art, or nothing is. I'd say the same about music - either all sounds are music or none are. It's all about subjective perception, really. One man's cement mixer is another man's sweet, sweet melody.

Edited October 18, 2015 by discreet

[Guest Jecklin]

Nice question/thread.

A lot if the music I listen to contains sounds that could be considered "unmusical", but arranged in such a way they are exceptionally beautiful.

I guess I would see it as dependant on intention of context.

[ahpook]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1445168208' post='2889213']
It's all about subjective perception, really.
[/quote]

Show me an objective perception !

[discreet]

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1445169598' post='2889223']
Show me an objective perception !
[/quote]

Heh, OK. It's all about perception.

[leftybassman392]

It is indeed very similar to the 'what is art' thread a year or two ago, but with the slight qualification that this isn't quite the same type of question. I rather suspect that people are giving an answer to the question 'what is music?' (which is actually not the question I asked).

I'm not asking about sequences of sounds; I'm asking about individual sounds considered in isolation. For those of you that have posted already, if you're happy to stand by your original answer then of course that's fine. No rights and wrongs in this one (or at least that's not why I asked it).

Edited October 18, 2015 by leftybassman392

[leschirons]

Much harder to put a definition to a single "stand alone" sound as opposed to a sound contained within a group of sounds so maybe it has something to do with "whether it has a relationship to"..... Having said that, I guess if someone played a single E note on a piano, we'd recognise that as musical as we're familiar with the source of that particular sound.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1445169903' post='2889229']
Much harder to put a definition to a single "stand alone" sound ...
[/quote]

Isn't it though?

[elephantgrey]

Im not an expert in musicology, but im pretty sure that its all to do with maths, harmonic wave patterns, and our own internal clock.

[ahpook]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1445169828' post='2889228']
It is indeed very similar to the 'what is art' thread a year or two ago, but with the slight qualification that this isn't quite the same type of question.
[/quote]

To me it's a similar question in that it's ultimately just a talking point - there is no answer other that "I find it so"

[Norris]

Any sound, or even lack thereof (John Cage 4'33) could be considered musical. Again, it's in the ear of the beholder

[elephantgrey]

I used to think that John Cage was just a pretentious until i learned the was a student of Schdenberg (creator of that whole 12 tone expressionist movement).

[Painy]

It is obviously very subjective of course but there is clearly some kind of musical common denominator. It's the reason certain pieces of music can become 'popular'.
Just looking at different genres of music, there is great diversity in people's tastes but they are all almost universally recognisable as musical in some way whether we enjoy them personally or not. So whilst individual preferences come into it, I do think you also have to take into account a general consensus approach. If an individual enjoys listening to nails down a blackboard or even cats getting it on at night, does that make it musical or that individual a bit weird?
Basically it's a question to which I would give both personal and general answers.
What is musical to me would be something both melodic (and more specifically - to my western ear - I'm a fan of the major & minor scales, their modes and other derivatives etc.) and rhythmic.
What is musical generally I would say is simply a sound in which the listener takes pleasure.

[ikay]

"..what makes a sound musical - or not..."

First you need to define what you mean by 'music', for example:

- the expression of definite or abstract ideas and emotions using rhythm, melody, harmony and timbre/texture, sometimes in conjunction with words, using any source of sound including silence

Any sound used in the above context can be considered musical (even silence)

Any sound not used in the above context isn't

IMO

[discreet]

I think any sound can be musical. Apart from any sounds made by Metallica, obviously.

[BassTractor]

A teacher of mine would walk into a corn field with a tape deck and a microphone, and record the sounds that were around. Back in the studio, he'd essentially take the cool bits and release the final result as a work.
I deeply loved his music, so I can't answer the question without taking context into the equation.

[leschirons]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1445170567' post='2889235']
Isn't it though?
[/quote]

What do I know? I can't even decide whether your reply was sarcastic or not

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1445177938' post='2889296']
"..what makes a sound musical - or not..."

First you need to define what you mean by 'music', for example:

- the expression of definite or abstract ideas and emotions using rhythm, melody, harmony and timbre/texture, sometimes in conjunction with words, using any source of sound including silence

Any sound used in the above context can be considered musical (even silence)

Any sound not used in the above context isn't

IMO
[/quote]

This to me sounds like the answer - it isn't so much the sound (or lack of) in itself but why that sound was made IM&HO (in mine and his opinion)

Edited October 18, 2015 by Mykesbass

[DavidMcKay]

One simple defining criteria - If it can be sung by a boy band then it is not music.

[Lo-E]

I once read an interview in which John McLaughlin said that you can follow any note with any other note as long as the listener has been "properly prepared" for it. He didn't elaborate on what that proper preparation might be, but I always found it interesting and I keep it in the back of my mind when I'm playing experimental or improvisational music that's perhaps a little bit 'out'.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1445179941' post='2889323']
What do I know? I can't even decide whether your reply was sarcastic or not
[/quote]

Not at all! Perhaps if I'd said 'I couldn't agree more!', would that be better? I sometimes have issues with these new-fangled speech idioms though so if I failed to convey the meaning then that wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. Take my meaning dude?

Back on topic,I think that defining a single sound as musical or not is extremely difficult in isolation. I think the posters who have spoken in terms of a context have gone closest to my thoughts on it. I can't quite get my head round how to phrase it (and FWIW I don't think anybody else is quite there yet either...), but I think of a sound in isolation as just that - a sound; neither musical nor non-musical.

Edited October 18, 2015 by leftybassman392

[JoeEvans]

Although any sound could be contextualised to make it form part of some music, I don't think I'd use the word 'musical' about a sound unless it had some suggestion of an identifiably tuned note or a discernible rhythm.