colgraff Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 I would say that a sound is musical if it fulfils these two criteria: 1: It carries meaning. 2: It's method of delivery is not simply speech and provokes an emotional response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassTractor Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) I just realised I've often reacted to sounds on the loose by exclamating: "Wow, that's a musical sound! I want to do something with it!" Granted, my ears might be broken, but if we instead speak of one with good ears exclamating something of the same, then suddenly a musical sound is a sound that the experienced ear thinks has [b]promise[/b]. This concept is not very far fetched for me, as it is very similar to a usual concept for composers and players: that of reacting similarly to a tone or a few tones, to a timbre or to one single chord. Edit: Colgraff in essence beat me to it. Beautifully worded, as usual. Edited October 18, 2015 by BassTractor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 A sound is musical if it is intended to be. Without intention, it is just a nice noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinnyman Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 In the book "how music works", by John Powell, he differentiates a musical note from any other sound by the repetition of the waveform. To quote: "Musical notes are different from non-musical noises because every musical note is made up of a ripple pattern which repeats itself over and over again. In the illustration below there are some examples of the ripple patterns of notes produced by different instruments. To be a musical note, it doesn’t really matter how complicated the individual ripples are, as long as the pattern repeats itself." Made sense to me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elephantgrey Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 [quote name='Skinnyman' timestamp='1445187257' post='2889428'] In the book "how music works", by John Powell, he differentiates a musical note from any other sound by the repetition of the waveform. To quote: "Musical notes are different from non-musical noises because every musical note is made up of a ripple pattern which repeats itself over and over again. In the illustration below there are some examples of the ripple patterns of notes produced by different instruments. To be a musical note, it doesn't really matter how complicated the individual ripples are, as long as the pattern repeats itself." Made sense to me.... [/quote] That makes a lot of sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leschirons Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1445187242' post='2889427'] A sound is musical if it is intended to be. Without intention, it is just a nice noise. [/quote] So if birdsong sounds musical to the human listener but is not intended to be "music" as such, by the bird (I assume that as far as the bird is concerned, it is communicating information) is it, or is it not music? If it is, it then suggests that the listener can decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonunders Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 If I was to paint my wall white, is it art? If I was to paint a 8'x8' canvas white does it then become art? If a person perceives it to be art then it is. If a person perceives a note to be musical who can argue that it isn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elephantgrey Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 [quote name='jonunders' timestamp='1445195892' post='2889549'] If a person perceives a note to be musical who can argue that it isn't [/quote] Me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maude Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 [quote name='jonunders' timestamp='1445195892' post='2889549'] If a person perceives a note to be musical who can argue that it isn't [/quote] Me I think a single sound, that doesn't rise or fall in pitch rhythmically, cannot be musical. That's not to say that this unmusical sound cannot be turned into music by repeating the sound or adding others to it. For example, I don't consider a single hand clap musical, now repeat in a pattern and it becomes musical, ala 'Carwash'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maude Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Ha. Beaten to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maude Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 On the art front, I think if the piece serves a purpose other than just to be art, and the things that go along with this eg stimulating thought or conversation,then it isn't art. Therefore the above painted wall isn't art but the painted canvas is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted October 18, 2015 Author Share Posted October 18, 2015 Anybody mind if we don't discuss art in this thread? I get the analogy, but there was a very long and at times closely argued thread on that subject a while ago. Just a polite request... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMcKay Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 [quote name='Maude' timestamp='1445196494' post='2889557'] Me I think a single sound, that doesn't rise or fall in pitch rhythmically, cannot be musical. That's not to say that this unmusical sound cannot be turned into music by repeating the sound or adding others to it. For example, I don't consider a single hand clap musical, now repeat in a pattern and it becomes musical, ala 'Carwash'. [/quote] I'm with this guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maude Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 [quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1445197868' post='2889576'] Anybody mind if we don't discuss art in this thread? I get the analogy, but there was a very long and at times closely argued thread on that subject a while ago. Just a polite request... [/quote] Point taken, and agreed with. Just thought I'd comment on the other post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 [quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1445169828' post='2889228'] ...I'm not asking about sequences of sounds; I'm asking about individual sounds considered in isolation... [/quote] Surely any single sound cannot be musical, unless it is repeated? My boiler and dishwasher make great beats. The resonance in the lift at my mate's flat creates a very relaxing harmony which seems to cycle. Almost everything is musical if you're listening, but it has to be more than just a short sound with no repetition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elephantgrey Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1445247642' post='2889835'] Surely any single sound cannot be musical, unless it is repeated? My boiler and dishwasher make great beats. The resonance in the lift at my mate's flat creates a very relaxing harmony which seems to cycle. Almost everything is musical if you're listening, but it has to be more than just a short sound with no repetition. [/quote] I'd say thus video sums up if a note is musical or not [media]http://youtu.be/cyW5z-M2yzw[/media] Edited October 19, 2015 by elephantgrey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorR Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 There is also the question of what types of sound tend to sound pleasant to the human ear and which tend to sound unpleasant. I recall reading a fascinating article many moons ago (probably in the context of amp and speaker sims) about the effects that adding amp or effect pedal distortion has on the waveform. To my recollection it talked about how was well as clipping the wave it added numerous clipped higher harmonics - both even and odd. The combination of these caused a dissonance in the complex timbre of the note which is generally deemed unpleasant. Hence a fuzz box straight into a PA tends to sound pretty pants. However, the low fi nature of a guitar speaker, by happy accident, tends to filter out the ?odd? harmonics leaving a much more pleasant sounding set of harmonics within the wave form. It is this selective filtering which amp/speaker sims seek to emulate. I wonder whether this is also an element in what types of sound we find musical albeit perhaps in less exaggerated form than with a distorted guitar signal? I wonder how the harmonic content of a beautifully played and screechy violin note compare? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 A random noise without intent can 'sound' musical, just as a picture made by a monkey can 'look like' art. But it isn't. Without intention, it is just noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Norris' timestamp='1445173703' post='2889257'] Any sound, or even lack thereof (John Cage 4'33) could be considered musical. Again, it's in the ear of the beholder [/quote] And once again I need to point out that 4' 33" is not about the absence of sound but those sounds that would normally be masked by the performance. Edited October 19, 2015 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 [quote name='elephantgrey' timestamp='1445250532' post='2889871'] I'd say thus video sums up if a note is musical or not [media]http://youtu.be/cyW5z-M2yzw[/media] [/quote] Sorry, i can't watch at the moment but will try to check it out later I suppose what I was saying is that any noise with even the slightest amount of repetition can sound musical. Without any repetition it's just a sound. Even if it's a musical note played on a musical instrument, if it's just one note, how is that music without any repetition or rhythm to it? It doesn't become musical until either a rhythm, or some more notes are introduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectoremg Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1445178766' post='2889307'] I think any sound can be musical. Apart from any sounds made by Metallica, obviously. [/quote]...and Motorhead... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I don't think the sound needs to be repeated to be musical: consider the sound made by a professional cellist playing a single note, compared to the sound of me trying to do the same. Of course there's repetition on a micro level, as the waveforms repeat (and vary). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miles'tone Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 [quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1445167072' post='2889196'] "A sound is musical if..." [/quote] ...it sounds musical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonunders Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 [quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1445197868' post='2889576'] Anybody mind if we don't discuss art in this thread? I get the analogy, but there was a very long and at times closely argued thread on that subject a while ago. Just a polite request... [/quote] Apologies, I didn't see the art thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I'd say it was the opposite of what we think and that our emotions have a massive bearing on it. Sounds you hear become imprinted on your brain when you are in certain moods and you associate those moods with those sounds. For example if your mother picked you up and cuddled you during a thunderstorm you associate thunderstorms as cuddly sounds. If your first experience was being caught out in a storm with loads of people panicking then the opposite happens. It explains better why you can't physically quantify why different people prefer different music. And why different cultures' music differs so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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