Why do we play so loud ?

[ambient]

There's a thread at the moment about hearing loss, another about tinnitus, and yet another asking about ear plugs.

So why do we play so loud in the first place ?

The reason I'm asking, I did a really beautiful jazz gig on Sunday, in a tent at an apple and cider festival in Worcestershire. It was one of the nicest gigs that I've played. We were nice and quiet, and totally in control of the music's dynamics, and every instrument could be heard perfectly. Everyone there enjoyed at, and we had dozens of compliments on the music, and enquires about booking us.

[Leonard Smalls]

Depends what you're doing!
Mellow jazz doesn't work at ear-spitting levels, same as metal doesn't work at dinner jazz levels...
I've always played loudly, but then I've been wearing earplugs for 25 years! Not constantly, though - that would be odd.

[redbandit599]

That's an interesting question - now I wouldn't expect a jazz band to be particularly loud and the same with several other types of music. But conversely a quiet rock/punk/metal band etc. would seem 'wrong' somehow.

Wonder if there's some psychological thing going on here!

[Naetharu]

I guess it depends on the style of music and the settings in which it is being played. If you were to turn up to a gig like you describe and crank a 200-watt valve amp running into a 810 cab I doubt you'd be made very welcome. But then, by the same measure the opposite would be true if I were go play a prog-metal gig with a little Phil Jones combo running at conversational volume.

Saying that, I do think that the quest for volume is a bit silly. I've been battling with a guitarist who is far too obsessed with volume over the past couple of months. It ended up with myself and the singer having to have a bit of an intervention with him last week and ask him to massively reduce his volume - he was trying to run a JCM2000-DSL100 head (a big 100-watt Marshall amp) into a 410 with the volume cranked to around 3 o'clock in our practice room. The only way you could hear my bass was for me to get it to a level where it was literally shaking the room. In his case he is new to playing in bands and just assumes that louder is cool - when in fact all it does is make it impossible to hear the definition of what is being played. Spinal Tap syndrome I guess.

The main factor in volume I think comes down the drummer - for heavy music where the drummer really needs to dig in to get the kind of attack needed to carry the beat it's going to be louder and thus so is everyone else. And to a point that sonic onslaught is part of the tone. Its just getting a balance between loud enough to make it sound massive and yet not so loud that you just make it into a horrible noise.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Naetharu

[Twigman]

We play loud enough to be heard above the drum kit.
Problem is when you get some neanderthal bashing hell out of a Ludwig kit in a fairly live room then significant volume is required to get a good mix.

[ambient]

[quote name='Naetharu' timestamp='1445433391' post='2891434']
I guess it depends on the style of music and the settings in which it is being played. If you were to turn up to a gig like you describe and crank a 200-watt valve amp running into a 810 cab I doubt you'd be made very welcome. But then, by the same measure the opposite would be true if I were go play a prog-metal gig with a little Phil Jones combo running at conversational volume.

Saying that, I do think that the quest for volume is a bit silly. I've been battling with a guitarist who is far too obsessed with volume over the past couple of months. It ended up with myself and the singer having to have a bit of an intervention with him last week and ask him to massively reduce his volume - he was trying to run a JCM2000-DSL100 head (a big 100-watt Marshall amp) into a 410 with the volume cranked to around 3 o'clock in our practice room. The only way you could hear my bass was for me to get it to a level where it was literally shaking the room. In his case he is new to playing in bands and just assumes that louder is cool - when in fact all it does is make it impossible to hear the definition of what is being played. Spinal Tap syndrome I guess.

The main factor in volume I think comes down the drummer - for heavy music where the drummer really needs to dig in to get the kind of attack needed to carry the beat it's going to be louder and thus so is everyone else. And to a point that sonic onslaught is part of the tone. Its just getting a balance between loud enough to make it sound massive and yet not so loud that you just make it into a horrible noise.
[/quote]

I see your point about playing jazz at ridiculous volumes.

It's a relative thing though. I think we've playing too loud for the style of music. At first the guy who's band it is didn't see it, but he understands what I'm saying now. I rehearsed with them last night, that's something I don't usually do, but they had a new guitarist along, and wanted a full band. They were way too loud last night, and totally lost the effect of the music.

There's being the appropriate volume for a specific genre, but then there's being loud for that genre. I guess that's what I'm trying to say.

[elephantgrey]

[quote name='Naetharu' timestamp='1445433391' post='2891434']
The main factor in volume I think comes down the drummer - for heavy music where the drummer really needs to dig in to get the kind of attack needed to carry the beat it's going to be louder and thus so is everyone else. And to a point that sonic onslaught is part of the tone. Its just getting a balance between loud enough to make it sound massive and yet not so loud that you just make it into a horrible noise.
[/quote]

This. The drummer on the whole dictates the minimum volume a band can play at.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1445434074' post='2891439']


There's being the appropriate volume for a specific genre, but then there's being loud for that genre. I guess that's what I'm trying to say.
[/quote]

Very true. There is no reason for being too loud for any genre. I went to see Alice Cooper at the Hammersmith Odeon early 2000s, and that was so loud you couldn't actually hear anything.

There is this crazy badge of honour thing - if it's too loud you'r too old. Load of old tosh in my book!

[roman_sub]

+1 on drummer's fault for rehearsals / smaller gigs. For larger gigs, refer to Deep Purple legacy, and the fact that audiences seem to expect to feel the soundwaves!

[ambient]

[quote name='roman_sub' timestamp='1445434897' post='2891453']
+1 on drummer's fault for rehearsals / smaller gigs. For larger gigs, refer to Deep Purple legacy, and the fact that audiences seem to expect to feel the soundwaves!
[/quote]

Kind of agree that it can be. However the drummer in the jazz group is a very experienced pro, he kept glancing over at me last night, shaking his head .

[dave_bass5]

I dont agree that its the drummers fault, although i do understand the comments.

In my case i play loud enough so that the people that need to hear me can. If that means at the back of the room, and i dont have PA support (99% of my gigs) then my volume is pretty much dictated by this. Even if the drummer played quieter that wont help those at the back of the room hear the band better.

[colgraff]

I think that it is an inherited behaviour. In pre amplification days, bands would hammer their instruments to get heard (trumpeters, notwithstanding) and then when amplification came in, it was a bit reedy sounding so everything was as loud as it could be. Then, when amplification got good enough for stadium bands, us lesser mortals started copying our heroes.

I can't give you a reference for it, but I am sure that, in their early days, Dire Straits made a point of playing quietly enough so that people could still speak to each other and they got a LOT of bookings because of it. The pubs and clubs really appreciated it because more people came to see them as a result.

[ambient]

I actually find it quite annoying sometimes when I see a gig, and can't hear what I'm saying to people.

[Conan]

If drums were quieter, would drummers just hit them harder or mike them up?

It's an interesting concept. Are drums made to be a certain volume because that's what drummers expect, or do drummers choose loud kits out of some sort of one-upmanship?

I suppose drums were originally designed/made to be played outdoors as part of a marching band or military accompaniment, so they had to be loud enough that they could be heard above all the associated din... but that no longer applies. Do drums need to be so loud now?

I know that from my own experiences, music just kind of lacks something if it is too quiet. I also find that rude punters talk over quiet bands and that is annoying in itself... However, what constitutes "too loud" or "too quiet" depends on so many factors like the style of music, the age and size of the audience, the size and shape of the room, the amount of PA support, and so on.

Electronic kits are great as they can be used to tame too-loud drummers. Unfortunately, the kind of drummers that are too loud wouldn't be seen dead playing electronic kits!

Edited October 21, 2015 by Conan

[Bassassin]

As has been mentioned - drummer. We have a very dextrous & dynamic drummer, but when he's loud, he's very, very loud.

Plus it makes you feel [i]alive[/i].

Jon.

[the boy]

I've been to some really loud jazz nights and it was wild. I've also been to some function type events where the Jazz was quite passive and quiet. It's horses for courses. Rock music needs to be loud, it's very emotive and evokes responses like jumping and shouting en masse that would drown out the music if it wasn't loud.

[Norris]

I guess I'm lucky. Our drummer is quite jazz influenced so can actually play with dynamics and subtlety. The guitarist has a 30W Mesa combo and a range of pedals that can go anywhere between shimmering cleanliness and screaming feedback. And all at volumes that customers can still order beer over the bar. I've never had to wear ear plugs.

We've had a lot of landlords comment on how we are one of their quieter bands, but we can still kick arse.

[Conan]

[quote name='colgraff' timestamp='1445435441' post='2891458']Dire Straits made a point of playing quietly enough so that people could still speak to each other and they got a LOT of bookings because of it. The pubs and clubs really appreciated it because more people came to see them as a result.
[/quote]
[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1445435673' post='2891460']
I actually find it quite annoying sometimes when I see a gig, and can't hear what I'm saying to people.
[/quote]

That's interesting. I've experienced plenty of instances where punters have complained because the band weren't loud enough to drown out rude audience members who were too busy talking too/at each other to even try to listen to the music! It's a difficult balance to get right I suppose, but it's made even worse by the price of gig tickets. If I shell out £40 or more a ticket, I want to hear the music, not the audience

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1445435696' post='2891462']
If drums were quitter, would drummers just hit them harder or mike them up?

It's an interesting concept. Are drums made to be a certain volume because that's what drummers expect, or do drummers choose loud kits out of some sort of one-upmanship?
[/quote]

Ask a drummer and I suspect he'll tell you that it's to get the right response, feel, tone etc. And there's probably some truth in that.

J.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='the boy' timestamp='1445435759' post='2891464']
Rock music needs to be loud, it's very emotive and evokes responses like jumping and shouting en masse that would drown out the music if it wasn't loud.
[/quote]

But this goes back to Ambient's follow up post - is it too loud even for the genre? For me, some of the most energetic, vibrant sounding music is early Rock & Roll - Little Richard, Elvis Presley's That's Alright Mama etc. These days, if you hear a band covering these types of songs, unless they are an authentic R&R band, they'll beef them up both in the amount of notes they play and the volume and, IMO, kill the vibrancy of the original.

So yes, Rock music needs to be loud, but not that loud!

[Leonard Smalls]

I think that there's a level that's "just right" for any particular type of music in any venue.
If you're in a pub, such as my local which isn't a specific music venue, a rock band should be loud enough that you can feel the bass a bit - not so much that it actually parts your hair and physically removes your kidneys - but rock has to be felt a bit in order to be rockin, same with funk.
However, a chap doing folky stuff with an acoustic guitar shouldn't be anywhere near as loud as that (although in my book he/she wouldn't be allowed in in the first place )
And neither should be so loud that you can't easily order a pint.
An whatever happens, the sound should be clean - I don't mean no distortion effects obviously, just that the PA should have sufficient headroom not to clip every time a note is played.

[Geek99]

I did an om night (only bass player) and I didn't need effects or high volume. The guitarist used a Telecaster into a marshal and we still were quieter than the twelve minute blues scale fest served up by the preceding 21 year self styled "guitar hero" - even though it was church I overheard the C word being used about him

[Grassie]

Our drummer has to hit harder than he's been used to in the past since he joined our band because of one of the guitarists fondness for playing loudly. It is the reason I bought an extension cab for my GK combo. It is also one of the reasons the next 6 gigs will be my last with this band. We play pubs and social clubs and every gig we get asked to turn it down, we have also said to the offending guitarist that he is too loud and everything else is being turned up to compensate. He's too loud therefore we're too loud. Just because we play rock music (a general term covering everything from The Beatles to Queen)I personally don't think it has to be loud to be good. A good mix out front and from the backline will always be more appealing to me than having everything turned up to 11. Looking forward to not having my ears hurt during a gig, and ringing like church bells for days afterwards.

[TimR]

Music should be at an 'appropriate' volume for the venue.

That is NOT as loud as you can get before feedback.

[chris_b]

IME it's the guitarists that set the volume level.

My current Thunderfunk amp has more watts in it than the whole of my first 3 bands put together, so I think bands today are being very stupid. But, hey, I want to gig and as I don't run my own band I can't dictate, so (earplugs at the ready) I'll go with the flow.

I play with a very loud SRV type guitarist and the drummer commented that I was too loud. At the same time the guitarist was complimenting me on my sound. When the band leader gives you the thumbs up it seems sensible that you keep doing whatever it is that's making him happy.

Last year the cover band had a gig where the neighbours were kicking off and they made us (meaning the guitarist) turn down. It was very quiet, and I loved it because we played with a better feel than on any gig before or since.

Sadly, for me, the sensible bands seem to have faded away and the loud ones are the guys that are still gigging. But ultimately the level of musicianship and the material we're playing will be the thing that matters to me.