Why do we play so loud ?

[lojo]

Assuming we are talking small pub/function type gigs , then apart from the obvious drummer level , guitar pushing it etc then EQ has a big part to play .

If the singer / guitar / keys are putting out low frequency they'll turn up to get above the bass rather then EQ themselves above it

[Phil Starr]

Well the OP did start off saying about the drums being miked up, so this is a band that wants to be louder than a drumkit allows, without that you are pretty much stuck at playing at the drummer's level.

I feel sorry for drummers, even if you find the fabled drummer who can play quiet I'd still want to use the whole dynamic range of my kit. I'd find it tough if someone told me I could only play bass gently. You could have louder and quieter kits but who has the space to store multiple kits never mind the expense, though I suspect drummers have GAS too. No sympathy for the over loud guitarist though.

The rot was there from the start. When I ran sound for bands in the early 70's you struggled to be heard with PA limited to a pair of WEM columns. Instrument amps had to reach the back of the room unaided so the Marshall full stack was born. Singers sang in their higher range just to cut through, a lot of rock norms/cliches were born of necessity. Now gear is cheap and the easy (lazy?) way of playing classic rock is to just copy the gear from your heroes, who would have killed to be able to use the equipment we have now.

GAS is a problem too, most bands are amateurs whose hobby it is. Buying the best gear you can afford and lots of it is part of the fun, once you have it you've got to give it a run out haven't you. Even I had a lot of fun at one gig where my drummer shouted at me to turn up and I did. Spent the first half not needing to pick and damping the strings which were singing with feedback, and oh the tone Very gratifying to have said drummist saying he couldn't hear his own snare drum. He hasn't asked me to turn up since strangely.

But you can't sound your best at the volumes a lot of pub bands play at and I'm with the people who say you should be playing for the audiences not yourselves, especially if someone is paying you to play. There are lots of good technical reasons why keeping sound levels down is better and really there is no excuse.

[Truckstop]

Drummer in my band plays with reeds 80% of the time (gigs and rehearsals), we always sound great and my Fender Rumble 100 combo has plenty of juice in the tank leftover. All instrumentalists need to get over the fact that you can't just play how you want all the time. Drummers that moan about lack of dynamic response caused by playing quietly need to get over themselves and start learning how to be part of a band. We all have to make sacrifices with our tone, drummers should not be the exception.

Honestly, I shake my head in amazement when people say that their 500w Genz head and 4x10 cab isn't loud enough. How loud are people playing? I have a Peavey Firebass and matching 4x10 in the garage that I've used once in the last year, it's just too loud. 99.99% of the gigs I've done in the last three years have been with an 80w 1x10 combo or a 100w 1x12 combo and never been too quiet.

There's just a culture of loudness perpetuated by gear manufacturers who produce stupidly powerful equipment. The only thing that should have more than 1kw on tap is the PA, not a bass rig.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Grassie' timestamp='1445438443' post='2891484']
Just because we play rock music (a general term covering everything from The Beatles to Queen)I personally don't think it has to be loud to be good.
[/quote]

Agreed, I played for a while in a rock covers type band with an electronic kit, we usually played at a lower volume than would be typical for a pub band and it improved the sound immensely. You don't realise how much of a tyranny it is having to build the mix around the drummer until you don't have to ...

Not to mention that basic sound quality of the drums was way better in a small venue than any acoustic kit I've ever heard and that includes a 5K DW kit.

Edited October 22, 2015 by bassman7755

[ambient]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1445497677' post='2891840']
Well the OP did start off saying about the drums being miked up, so this is a band that wants to be louder than a drumkit allows, without that you are pretty much stuck at playing at the drummer's level.

I feel sorry for drummers, even if you find the fabled drummer who can play quiet I'd still want to use the whole dynamic range of my kit. I'd find it tough if someone told me I could only play bass gently. You could have louder and quieter kits but who has the space to store multiple kits never mind the expense, though I suspect drummers have GAS too. No sympathy for the over loud guitarist though.

The rot was there from the start. When I ran sound for bands in the early 70's you struggled to be heard with PA limited to a pair of WEM columns. Instrument amps had to reach the back of the room unaided so the Marshall full stack was born. Singers sang in their higher range just to cut through, a lot of rock norms/cliches were born of necessity. Now gear is cheap and the easy (lazy?) way of playing classic rock is to just copy the gear from your heroes, who would have killed to be able to use the equipment we have now.

GAS is a problem too, most bands are amateurs whose hobby it is. Buying the best gear you can afford and lots of it is part of the fun, once you have it you've got to give it a run out haven't you. Even I had a lot of fun at one gig where my drummer shouted at me to turn up and I did. Spent the first half not needing to pick and damping the strings which were singing with feedback, and oh the tone Very gratifying to have said drummist saying he couldn't hear his own snare drum. He hasn't asked me to turn up since strangely.

But you can't sound your best at the volumes a lot of pub bands play at and I'm with the people who say you should be playing for the audiences not yourselves, especially if someone is paying you to play. There are lots of good technical reasons why keeping sound levels down is better and really there is no excuse.
[/quote]

I haven't mentioned mic'ing drums, agree with you that music does sound better when the volume is lower. You have more control over everything.

Why do people mic drums in pubs though ?

I think you're correct re the gas thing. You can buy stupidly powerful rigs now for silly money. The bass player from the one jazz band I dep for wheels in a 4x10 cab at each gig. Bear in mind that most of the band's gigs are in small pubs on Sunday afternoons. I use possibly the smallest combo on the planet 😁.

[cheddatom]

I have no problem drumming quietly, if that's what's appropriate for the gig. Lots of people blaming drummers - I'd rather blame poor communication and lack of compromise within your band, which isn't necessarily the drummers' fault

Anyway, IME it's more likely that the guitarist wants to hear some of the top end from his amp, but he's standing with it pointing at his arse, and really close too, so to hear himself he has to turn up loud

[KevB]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1445460232' post='2891720']
I've noticed that when people have paid for tickets, they are usually respectful of the music and are quiet. This allows music at relatively low volume to be heard.

On the other hand when people have not paid for tickets, they tend to talk over the music and you need to play at a decent volume to be noticed.
[/quote]

You've never been to the Flowerpot in Derby then. Worst place I've known for ignorant people talking at loud volume over the top of bands. They can't get in the gig room without showing a ticket or paying at the door. I think partly the room shape is to blame, its roughly L shaped with the stage at the short end of the L. There is a bar on one half of the long arm of the L so if people are round the bar the band is sort of playing slightly 'round the corner' from them. The racket they often make is at best disrespectful.

Edited October 23, 2015 by KevB

[discreet]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1445451668' post='2891630']
...Although my band is punk we`re not particularly loud - full on yes, but not overbearingly loud. I`ve been in bands where the guitars turn up ridiculously loud cos "its rock" or the drums do rim-shots all the time...
[/quote]

This. A fair number of 'rock' players think that 'loud' means 'heavy', but of course it does not. 'Heavy' is a state of mind and can more than adequately be represented by a band that [i]isn't[/i] playing at 120db. Of course bands are populated mostly by young men who have what I call the 'Top Gear' attitude, i.e. bigger, louder, faster must be better, right?

Our current guitarist is a Marshall stack and Les Paul merchant, but we're constantly telling him to turn up. He sounds great and plays like a demon but is a model of restraint otherwise. He's never too loud and he cuts the bottom end from his EQ so as not to encroach on bass or kick drum territory. One in a million!

Edited October 22, 2015 by discreet

[BassBunny]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1445440660' post='2891509']
I'm always left shaking my head in disbelief when I see bands micing up the drumkit for a small pub gig, yes people want to hear the music but they also want to be able to order drinks at the bar and have a shouted conversation as well.
[/quote]
Yes, Yes and three times Yes. I couldn't agree more and have this discussion constantly with our vocalist, (who owns the PA). Our guitarist has a PA company and it never ceases to amaze him why everything goes through the PA for Pub Gigs. The minute you amplify the drums, everything else has be turned up a notch.
Also Wedding/Function Gigs, why do bands soundcheck from the back of the room? The edge of the dancefloor is the area to concentrate on as people want to talk at a function.
I agree that certain genres of music need to be "felt" but I have walked out on bands that make my ears bleed.

[ahpook]

It's not just drummers, I was at my weekly 'folk jam' last night...the set-up is bass (through a 15w amp), violin, 12-string and 6-string acoustics.

The 6-string player goes straight into mad busking volume, which there's no need for in someone's living room. Thankfully the violinist is very good at moderating his volume.

Last night I did end up asking him to calm down a bit as we couldn't hear the 12-stringer.

[Conan]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1445460232' post='2891720']
I've noticed that when people have paid for tickets, they are usually respectful of the music and are quiet. This allows music at relatively low volume to be heard.
[/quote]

Then your experiences are very different to mine. Not wrong, just different!

[CamdenRob]

It's difficult regarding the whole people talking over the music thing... I'm in two minds about it.

Your music should gain and hold peoples attention... You can't demand everyone be silent and behold your amazing musicianship if no-one is interested. it's different if someone is ruining other peoples enjoyment of the music being played and they should be told (by the venue) to keep it down, but if no-one is interested and everyone would rather have a good old chat to their mates then there isn't a whole lot can be done about it.

I have a mate who plays folky blues stuff, she's excellent but it's quiet and acoustic and the promoter always ends up shushing people and telling them to be quiet and respect the music etc... I don't really buy it. It smacks to me of "Thou shalt be silent and recognise my genius"

Edited October 22, 2015 by CamdenRob

[tanuki]

Over the years i have experienced all of the positives and negatives of playing at high volume, i agree that we need to be as loud as our drummer but really i have to say that time and time again the real culprit behind any problems with progressive raising volume and it being too much is always the GUITAR PLAYER... they are always turning up and up after being bollocked by the soundman at soundcheck for being too loud... still they claim they cant hear themselves

[BigRedX]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1445462442' post='2891736']
I think talking about the music, saying "that was nice", or I liked that song", or maybe "the bass player is good isn't he ?", is ok.


[/quote]

IME there are plenty of opportunities to talk in-between the songs or before and after the set. As an audience member I'm far too interested in LISTENING TO THE MUSIC whilst it is happening to want to talk over/through it.

[tanuki]

It depends on what is special about your band or music. One of the most moving experiences i saw live was a LOW gig where they played so quietly at points that they were whispering vocals through cupped hands into microphones 3 feet away and the audience was so quiet that you could hear a pin drop.. my heart was in my throat...... Some performers are engaging in this way, those really good acoustic performers know how to connect honestly and openly with the audience by encouraging intimacy. When this happens it is beatutiful and the strongest connections happen at low volume when you get really pulled in (average loud talking acoustic audiences, this is why you are scum!)

There again some bands engage through energy, and this is as great a thing to experience as a really intimate moment with an acoustic performer. Excessive volume is generally a bad thing, distorted PAs cause discomfort and in some cases actual damage (thanks for the tinitus living colour) BUT volume is important for a lot of performers, i'm not talking stupid, hurting everyone volume but it is common for quieter and less energetic bands to assume that those that play at volume are in some way luddites or cavemen for using volume, this is just a lack of understanding.

My band are generally one of the louder ones, we are in no way metal but more playing really loud blues, we have made a lot of mistakes through the occasional "amp wars" that go on but volume is a bit part of how our live energy works. We had a lot of trouble with sound men that didn't know us complaining we were too loud at soundcheck then coming up afterwards and saying "I get it now!" I also play in incredibly quiet bands it really depends on the band but to me volume is important.

[tanuki]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1445508544' post='2891947']

I have a mate who plays folky blues stuff, she's excellent but it's quiet and acoustic and the promoter always ends up shushing people and telling them to be quiet and respect the music etc... I don't really buy it. It smacks to me of "Thou shalt be silent and recognise my genius"
[/quote]

I know its tricky because a great acoustic performer will hold peoples attention but if the audience are unfamiliar with them and talking then it prevents them from being able to engage and more importantly prevents those who are engaging from being able to gain the full effect. Talking during these shows is usually more to do with beer, friends and people chatting people up etc etc, all good things but i don't think its bad for the promoter to tell people to be quiet. Trouble is with acoustic bands, if you use quiet and intimacy to draw people in then dynamics are the key and if its a drunk and talky audience you can set the higher levels of the dynamics too high as you are trying to draw people in and then you use all the subtlety that you have been rehearsing.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1445509396' post='2891958']
IME there are plenty of opportunities to talk in-between the songs or before and after the set. As an audience member I'm far too interested in LISTENING TO THE MUSIC whilst it is happening to want to talk over/through it.
[/quote]depends on the type of gig, if you're out to specifically to see a certain band you like, yes you'll stand and listen (IMO if there's time to talk between songs the band is messing about too much) but if you've popped into the local music venue it's different, just because people are talking doesn't mean they're not enjoying the gig, if folk are out with friends they want to chat and enjoy the atmosphere of a live gig, that's why if a band is too loud, if people can, they'll stand round the corner or go into a different room if possible

Edited October 22, 2015 by PaulWarning

[BigRedX]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1445510059' post='2891976']
depends on the type of gig, if you're out to specifically to see a certain band you like, yes you'll stand and listen (IMO if there's time to talk between songs the band is messing about too much) but if you've popped into the local music venue it's different, just because people are talking doesn't mean they're not enjoying the gig, if folk are out with friends they want to chat and enjoy the atmosphere of a live gig, that's why if a band is too loud, if people can, they'll stand round the corner or go into a different room if possible
[/quote]

If I'm at a music venue I am there to see/hear the band. If I went to a pub and there was a band on who I wasn't expecting, unless they were playing music that I liked and wanted to listen to, I'd probably go elsewhere to do my drinking and talking.

[Marvin]

I'm with BRX on this one. At a venue in particular, where you've paid to get in, I don't want to hear how Kev and Daz were down last weekend and what a great time they had. I'm there to enjoy the music, not some knuckle dragger's life story.
It's a major problem in venues where I live.

[cheddatom]

Are the band there as background music? If so it should be in the background. If not then people should be paying attention and not trying to have conversations - but they only do this if you're good enough

[Marvin]

It shows a lack of respect to other people in the audience. I'm talking from a punters perspective not as someone in a band.

[TimR]

So the volume of the band has to be appropriate to the venue and the audience requirements.

The band is providing a service, the landlord and audience are the customers.

It's not about what I or you want, it's about what they want.

If they want it loud then play loud, but don't complain or argue when the landlord or audience want it quieter.

I've never been asked to turn up. Paul's comment about sound checking from the back of the room is spot on.

Why do you want it loud at the back. Surely you want it loud where you want the audience to stand. Then the people who don't want it loud can stand further away but still be in the room.

I had that argument for years with a drummer who said we were too quiet at the back of the room. Considering he was sitting behind his drums behind the band and behind the PA I'll still can't work that one out. And the drummer is the guy we're setting our volume to? Something is wrong.

.

Edited October 22, 2015 by TimR

[the boy]

I thought people like it loud!!!!!

[gjones]

[quote name='tanuki' timestamp='1445508720' post='2891950']
Over the years i have experienced all of the positives and negatives of playing at high volume, i agree that we need to be as loud as our drummer but really i have to say that time and time again the real culprit behind any problems with progressive raising volume and it being too much is always the GUITAR PLAYER... they are always turning up and up after being bollocked by the soundman at soundcheck for being too loud... still they claim they cant hear themselves
[/quote]

Put their amp 2 feet from their head. It usually has the required effect.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1445502481' post='2891889']
Why do people mic drums in pubs though ?
[/quote]

The excuse I`ve heard is so that all the sound is better balanced. Whereas what I`ve found in reality is that the one doing all of this then bumps up the whole bands volume unreasonably.