Woes of a flobby B - anything that can improve the situation?

[markdavid]

I am sure D'Addario do a 140 gauge string that is sold on either stringbusters or stringsdirect, may be worth looking

[pete.young]

[quote name='eude' timestamp='1445964187' post='2895758']
OK, well the well cut and set up nut still stands, no?
To be fair when I said "cheaper bass", I mean really cheap, an inexpensive instrument without branded hardware from Schaller, Hipshot etcs.
[/quote]

My cheap, inexpensive mtd Kingston, which doesn't have branded hardware and for which I paid 400 quid second hand on this very forum, has a more tightly defined sound from the B than many more expensive bases including (just) my own Yamaha Bbne2, so go figure. It does have a 35”scale.

Seems to me that you need to make individual judgements on a per instrument basis rather than worrying about spurious comments about hardware or original retail price.

[geoham]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1445932348' post='2895414']
Eventually you will want to upgrade to a better bass. IME you need to spend at least £1000 new to get a bass with a decent low B.
[/quote]
My own experience has been that a more expensive bass delivers a better B, though I managed it for £700 (a five string, not a sixer!). My first five string was a perspex Wesley - looked cool, but wasn't great! Several years later, I picked up an Ibanez SR405 - much better, but couldn't get on with the tight string spacing. The B was also quite floppy. I've now purchased a Lakland 5501 - and it's really great. At £700, I suppose many on here will consider it a budget bass, but it's the most expensive I've ever owned!

[Naetharu]

Cheers again for all of the advice folks I'm going to zoom over to Strings Direct today and see if I can pick up some nice ones that might make a bit of difference. If not then I guess it'll be time to have a look for another bass. I checked out the Myung singnature bass and it looks fantastic. Going to have to keep my eyes open on here for when one of those comes up - especially given all the great stuff I have heard about Yammaha basses in general.

[D'AddarioUK]

Regards string tension you can make use of D'Addario's [url="http://stringtensionpro.com/"]String Tension Pro[/url] tool to compare the tension of any of our strings over different tunings and scale lengths. I suspect your problems should be rectified by fitting new strings and setting up your bass.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='D'AddarioUK' timestamp='1446021240' post='2896155']
Regards string tension you can make use of D'Addario's [url="http://stringtensionpro.com/"]String Tension Pro[/url] tool to compare the tension of any of our strings over different tunings and scale lengths. I suspect your problems should be rectified by fitting new strings and setting up your bass.
[/quote]

But your handy tool shows immediately that the main problem with a floppy low B is that even with a 135 gauge string the tension is still way lower than any of the other strings in the set. Using a taper-wound string and other tricks to make the string less compliant only go so far to rectifying this.

[charic]

[quote name='Naetharu' timestamp='1446018900' post='2896124']
Cheers again for all of the advice folks I'm going to zoom over to Strings Direct today and see if I can pick up some nice ones that might make a bit of difference. If not then I guess it'll be time to have a look for another bass. I checked out the Myung singnature bass and it looks fantastic. Going to have to keep my eyes open on here for when one of those comes up - especially given all the great stuff I have heard about Yammaha basses in general.
[/quote]

I love my RBX6JM, if you're ever in the area then give me a shout

[D'AddarioUK]

The gauge of most low B strings in bass sets means that generally they will be under a lot less tension, there is a big difference between actual and perceived tension so this isn't a problem. I believe a change of strings should resolve the issue and that a non-tapered .130 ought to suffice.

[JPJ]

For what its worth, herewith my twopenneth

Firstly, scale length makes a huge difference to the sound of the B. I noticed this immediately on going from 34" to 35", notes played on the B string seemed more 'immediate' making faster passages easier to play. Having recently acquired a 36" scale bass, this is confirmed with an even faster 'response' and a much better definition overall.

Secondly, break angle over the bridge. New strings, especially 130 & 135 'B' strings need to be manually 'broken' over the bridge. When I restring, I bring the B up to tension, stretch the string, retension etc until the string tuning is stable and then I press down on the string just in front of the bridge saddle to 'force' the string to break over the saddle rather than sort of 'arcing' over the saddle. This also helps with action, as my action with new strings is often higher on the B & E due to the lack of break angle over the saddle caused by the bulk or mass of the string.

[cheddatom]

I've got 3 6 strings of varying scales. The low B seems best on the middle one - not sure what the scale length is though. Anyway, the main difference for me is with string gauge. I currently have .145 from Newtone - not cheap, but very effective

[JTUK]

I use a custom Tapered 118 B and it sounds and feels great.

I can slap or double thumb a line on the double B and it sits and sounds very well
with the rest of the strings.

The bass takes the credit here though, IMO, and whilst good string are required..
the bass and the build is key.

Great bass plus poor string= ok-ish
Poor bass, great string and you'll be lucky to get to 'ok-ish'

You really have to get out there and hear and play the bass you want to buy.
This applies to any bass, IMO... but for a bass with a low B. ...to the power of 10. IME.

[Twincam]

Ok well pretty much everything has been said are good ideas. Better strings (higher tension), well setup bass.
I will add in that makes sure the saddle is correctly intonated.
Also that your technique might just need time to adapt.
Also raising the b string height might help even just a touch.
Finally and controversial but some people will just be naturally better at dealing with different string tension.

[Naetharu]

Cheers. I'll have a crack at that too when I restring it

Edited October 29, 2015 by Naetharu

[PlungerModerno]

[quote name='D'AddarioUK' timestamp='1446030945' post='2896279']
The gauge of most low B strings in bass sets means that generally they will be under a lot less tension, there is a big difference between actual and perceived tension so this isn't a problem. I believe a change of strings should resolve the issue and that a non-tapered .130 ought to suffice.
[/quote]

+1 for most 5 string sets I've tried.

IME "45" sets (specifically 45,65,85,105 IIRC) with 125 B strings have felt too slack, whilst a 135 or 130 B has been better matched to the EADG strings.
For "40" sets (around 40,60,80,100) - a 130 or 125 B is usually OK. Having tried mixing and matching some low B's of the same string brand & model I found the 135 B a little stiff with light gauge strings. They were on a 34" scale instrument with medium to low action for what that's worth.

As with so much with basses - the devil is in the details. Not all strings are made equal! String core & wrap material and construction are hugely important to bass strings feel and sound. Low B strings seem harder to make well than most others. From what I've seen they tend to be made of more layers and have thicker wrap wire/ribbon.

[ebenezer]

a longer scale length is recommended...ie....35/36....having said that, my status shark 5 has a fairly tight
punchy B string (125 gauge),and the bass has a 34inch scale!!!...indeed, i have played basses with a
35 scale and they too have the floppy B.

work that one out.

[eude]

I've played 36" basses with significantly worse B strings than on any of my 33" basses I've had, and I took delivery of a 31.5" 6 string this week and the low B on it is great!
All I'm saying is a longer the B string doesn't necessarily a better low B, there are SO many other things in play.

I intend to do some recordings of my new short scale 6 soon to prove my point...

Eude

[chris_b]

There are average quality instruments at every level, but the best B strings I've played have been low volume run or "boutique" basses. The ones that weren't the best have been production line basses. So far I've never played a bad 35" B string.

Sadowsky, Ken Smith and Wal are all 34" basses so my take on this is that build and material quality will be a key factor. A shorter scale might be just what you want but lower notes perform better on a longer string.

That's backed up by orchestras, where the quality of the sound is critical. There is a reason why the lower an instrument has to play the longer/bigger it is.

[Horizontalste]

I had the same issue when I first bought my 34" scale Yamaha Bb.
I tried a few different string manufacturers & gauges & finally settled on D'Addario with a 135 B.
I have limited experience with 5's but it now feels & plays great & the difference in tone is minimal.
In short I guess you just have to find the right strings for it.

[Grahambythesea]

I think Pete Young may be right about scale length, 35 ins greatly helps the bottom B. I have two 5 strings, a US Fender with 34 in scale and a Korean Spector with 35 in scale and guess which is the better? Flat wounds could certainly help they generally have a higher tension than round wounds, but beware you will probably need to adjust the nut to accommodate the additional string width. I found Chromes had a high tension, in fact too much for me but it's all a matter of personal taste. The trouble is you may have to spend quite a lot trying different makes and gauges until you find one that suits. At an average of £40 a set this gets a bit expensive!
Good luck.

[BigRedX]

IME 35" scale for a good B is a bit of a red herring. There are too many manufacturers at the cheaper end of the market who simply add an extra inch to the scale length in the hope that it will improve the sound and feel of the lower strings. Generally it doesn't. It's all about the construction and anyone who can make a good sounding and playing 35" scale 5-string bass can most probably make a 34" scale one that plays and sounds just as good.

I've owned loads of 5-string basses with scales lengths of 34" 35" and 36". Apart from one very cheap 34" scale bass, the 35" scale instruments had the poorest sounding and playing low Bs. AFAICS the neck rigidity and neck joint construction is far more important to getting a good low B, than adding a single inch to the length - after all it's only a 3% increase in length.

[dannybuoy]

[quote name='Horizontalste' timestamp='1446304640' post='2898494']
I had the same issue when I first bought my 34" scale Yamaha Bb.
I tried a few different string manufacturers & gauges & finally settled on D'Addario with a 135 B.
I have limited experience with 5's but it now feels & plays great & the difference in tone is minimal.
In short I guess you just have to find the right strings for it.
[/quote]

Funnily enough I went back to D'Addarios on my BB and the irony is that's what comes fitted out of the factory (although probably a 130 not 135)! Next string change though will be Dunlop Super Bright Nickels, I've heard great things about them and word on the street is if you like D'Addario nickels you'll love these.

Edited November 3, 2015 by dannybuoy

[LewisK1975]

I talked a fair bit about this with the guys at Bass direct when buying my Sandberg VM5 - Their opinion was that it has a lot to with construction and hardware, plus scale length also helps.

Basically more of the modern 5/6 string basses are built from the beginning as 5/6 string basses, whereas a lot of the big manufacturers build to the same specs as the 4-string but just add what is needed to get the 5th/6th string on to the bass, if that makes sense.

Look at a sandberg - 6 neck bolts, chunky bridges etc..

Also if you don't believe scale length makes any difference - Go to Bass Direct's Youtube channel and have a listen to a Dingwall, where the Fan-fret system means the low B can be as much as 37" scale. The B on those things never sounds muddy / floppy.

[D'AddarioUK]

[quote name='enssorcel' timestamp='1446575319' post='2900537']
I used your tool to have a look at the tension on the low B of the Chromes I'm getting and apparently the 0.132 has ~36lb of tension as opposed to ~23lb which I find incredible considering the miniscule jump in guage and the fact others here have suggested even a 0.135 wouldn't make much difference. It explains why your set uses the odd 132 rather than 130 or 135 which I usually see on 5 string sets however. I do wonder if it must be a mistake as I really can't see how 0.002 inches can add 13lb, as I've seen the formula used on your website also.

As some members have suggested I do think perceived tension may be half the problem, as the low B on my HB feels horribly floppy but sounds ok plugged in. They are terrible strings though.
[/quote]

The tension changes are significantly different depending on which strings you use, the difference between a .135 and .130 nickel plated steel string is less than 3lbs over 34" at standard tuning.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='LewisK1975' timestamp='1446626572' post='2900846']
Also if you don't believe scale length makes any difference - Go to Bass Direct's Youtube channel and have a listen to a Dingwall, where the Fan-fret system means the low B can be as much as 37" scale. The B on those things never sounds muddy / floppy.
[/quote]

Scale length can make a difference especially on something like a Dingwall where:

1. The increase in length of the string is almost 10% compared with a standard long-scale bass
2. The overall standard of materials and construction is way above your average sub £1k instrument.

The issue as I see it is that a small increase in length (normally 1" or less than 3%) on its own just doesn't cut it. The improvements in materials used and quality of construction required to make the most of this tiny change in string length mean that any decent luthier or manufacturer can get just as good results by applying these improvements to a standard 34" scale bass.

By all means go for a 35" scale bass if you like prefer the inter-fret spacing, but don't automatically expect the get better feeling and sounds low strings.

[Kev]

There is no set rule on what scale length is right for a B string. I have never noticed much of a difference between the 33", 34" and 35" basses I have had. Worst B I have encountered was a Peavey 35". What I don't like is the feel of a D and G (and C on 6 strings) on a 35inch or more scale. For me, Dingwall get it spot on with the multi scale lengths for string balance, but the first position is not the most comfortable at all.

Generally, if you discount Fanned frets, for me the best balance comes from 34" and I have chose that scale length for my Alpher build as a result

It's all subjective what is best, however to say the longer the better as a general rule is wrong