Don't know how to play this...

[Deerhunter1331]

I'm working my way through Hal Leonard's bass method, and it has been going great right up until now. I have just learnt the natural minor scale, so now I'm learning some basslines around it. Now, the key for 3 out of the 8 bars is D and the key signature for this is G minor. I try to play it using D major scale but the notes go below the D, and you play notes which aren't part of the scale, such as C and E flat. I know that the relative minor scale of the D major is B natural minor, but if I try to use the B minor scale, then I still can't use it since it doesn't have the notes I need. I was thinking that since the B and E are flat, due to the key signature, then maybe I have to use the B flat minor scale, since it contains the notes that I need?

I'm really stuck here, BC. I'm hoping someone can enlighten here

I will include a pic of the piece that I'm trying to play.

Thanks

[attachment=203970:WP_20151030_0021.jpg]

[Hector]

It's G minor. There are multiple minor scales: Natural, Harmonic, and Melodic. You need to learn them all, and what chords are drawn from them (it's not so hard, I promise).

G natural minor: G A Bb C D Eb F G - they key signature for a minor key will always tell you the notes of the natural minor scale. This is the relative minor of Bb major.

The only note out of any of those chords that doesn't fit in withe the G natural minor scale is the F# in the D7. That's either drawn from the ascending melodic minor (the jazz melodic minor), or from the harmonic minor. Only the latter has an Eb in, so that's more likely to be the choice.

G harmonic minor: G A Bb C D Eb F# G

In a major key, you know what the I ii iii IV V vi vii chords are, because they're always drawn from the same pool of notes. In minor keys, you can make chords using the notes of any of those three minor scales. Often the V chord (D in the key of G minor) uses the harmonic minor as a basis, because it contains the F#, which generates a strong sense of resolution between the D7 and G. Otherwise, D-7 to G-7 isn't much of a sense of harmonic motion.

Hope that explains! Let me know if you have any more questions.

[Deerhunter1331]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1446214163' post='2897800']
It's G minor. There are multiple minor scales: Natural, Harmonic, and Melodic. You need to learn them all, and what chords are drawn from them (it's not so hard, I promise).

G natural minor: G A Bb C D Eb F G - they key signature for a minor key will always tell you the notes of the natural minor scale. This is the relative minor of Bb major.

The only note out of any of those chords that doesn't fit in withe the G natural minor scale is the F# in the D7. That's either drawn from the ascending melodic minor (the jazz melodic minor), or from the harmonic minor. Only the latter has an Eb in, so that's more likely to be the choice.

G harmonic minor: G A Bb C D Eb F# G

In a major key, you know what the I ii iii IV V vi vii chords are, because they're always drawn from the same pool of notes. In minor keys, you can make chords using the notes of any of those three minor scales. Often the V chord (D in the key of G minor) uses the harmonic minor as a basis, because it contains the F#, which generates a strong sense of resolution between the D7 and G. Otherwise, D-7 to G-7 isn't much of a sense of harmonic motion.

Hope that explains! Let me know if you have any more questions.
[/quote]

Wow, you just made me realise that I have a lot to learn still, but thanks for clearing this up for me. I also have another question. I can play the entire piece using the G natural minor scale, all in the 3rd position, but what I was trying to do was shift every time the chord changed, so that the chord then became my root note and use the appropriate scale. Is there any point of doing this, since I can play this within a single scale? The book encouraged you to treat the chord changes as key changes. Not literally, but in terms of playing and understanding the bassline. Maybe I misunderstood the book or something.

[Hector]

No problem. The overall key is G minor. So for each chord, you're playing G minor from a different root. E.g. C-7 is really G natural minor from C to C. Have a read about modes, which might help. For each chord you play a mode of G minor. That's probably what they're talking about in the book (I've not read it)

Chords can be related back to a parent scale. So the chord of D7 is drawn from the parent scale of G harmonic minor. If you take the same scale starting from a different root note, you have a mode. For example, C major running from D to D is D dorian. Or from E to E it is E phrygian.

In this case, you would play D7 as the fifth mode of G harmonic minor. Really, you can still use all your G harmonic minor shapes etc, you're just emphasising the notes D F# A C (a D7 chord) and this gives the "flavour" of the fifth mode of G harmonic minor.

You want to minimise position shifting, and make those shifts you do make be governed by musical considerations. Shifting every bar isn't that useful, and it's a good exercise and efficient use of the fingerboard to shift only when you need to.

[Hector]

Let me know if that makes things a bit clearer Can explain in more detail or in a different way if you need.

[Deerhunter1331]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1446223167' post='2897927']
No problem. The overall key is G minor. So for each chord, you're playing G minor from a different root. E.g. C-7 is really G natural minor from C to C. Have a read about modes, which might help. For each chord you play a mode of G minor. That's probably what they're talking about in the book (I've not read it)

Chords can be related back to a parent scale. So the chord of D7 is drawn from the parent scale of G harmonic minor. If you take the same scale starting from a different root note, you have a mode. For example, C major running from D to D is D dorian. Or from E to E it is E phrygian.

In this case, you would play D7 as the fifth mode of G harmonic minor. Really, you can still use all your G harmonic minor shapes etc, you're just emphasising the notes D F# A C (a D7 chord) and this gives the "flavour" of the fifth mode of G harmonic minor.

You want to minimise position shifting, and make those shifts you do make be governed by musical considerations. Shifting every bar isn't that useful, and it's a good exercise and efficient use of the fingerboard to shift only when you need to.
[/quote]

Thanks for explaining modes to me, its just a lot to take in.

So, if I'm playing in the key of C minor, and decide to play the 5th mode of the C natural minor scale, then I can use any minor scale in the key of G? Or the relative major scale if I choose to? Does mean that in playing the C natural minor scale from G to G?

Also, if I'm playing in the key of C minor, how do I know which minor scale to I use?

Thanks

Edited October 30, 2015 by Deerhunter1331

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Deerhunter1331' timestamp='1446232487' post='2898034']
Thanks for explaining modes to me, its just a lot to take in.

So, if I'm playing in the key of C minor, and decide to play the 5th mode of the C natural minor scale, then I can use any minor scale in the key of G? Or the relative major scale if I choose to? Does mean that in playing the C natural minor scale from G to G?

Also, if I'm playing in the key of C minor, how do I know which minor scale to I use?

Thanks
[/quote]

Don't think too hard on this... Just play the whole thing using the G natural minor scale.

[Deerhunter1331]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1446235505' post='2898064']


Don't think too hard on this... Just play the whole thing using the G natural minor scale.
[/quote]

Yeah, I might be overcomplicating things right now, but I guess I will have to learn this sooner or later.

[Hector]

[quote name='Deerhunter1331' timestamp='1446232487' post='2898034']
Thanks for explaining modes to me, its just a lot to take in.

So, if I'm playing in the key of C minor, and decide to play the 5th mode of the C natural minor scale, then I can use any minor scale in the key of G? Or the relative major scale if I choose to? Does mean that in playing the C natural minor scale from G to G?

Also, if I'm playing in the key of C minor, how do I know which minor scale to I use?

Thanks
[/quote]

No problem man, if I can get it then you definitely can We can just keep chatting until you feel your questions are answered!

The 5th mode of C natural minor is C minor played G to G - G Ab Bb C D Eb F. (Note: Natural minors have a systematic relationship to majors - C natural minor is the 6th mode of Eb major).

Typically though, you would take the V chord from harmonic or melodic minor, as these both contain a leading tone to the root of the parent minor scale. E.g. G7 contains a B, which moves up a semitone to C, when resolving to C minor. This creates a strong sense of V-i resolution. G-7, the V chord of C natural minor has a Bb which doesn't create the same sense of resolution.

The scale you use is informed by the chords. Typically, you don't choose a scale which has a note that clashes with one of the notes in the current chord*.

You have three options in minor: natural minor, harmonic minor, or melodic minor. This makes minor key progressions a bit fiddly sometimes, as they can include a broader variety of chords than major harmony. Lots of harmony that you will encounter is diatonic, meaning that all the chords are contained within the parent scale of the key. For example, the progression Dmin7 G7 Cmaj is all from C major. It's just that for minor, you have a few different options because of there being three different scales.

G natural minor: G A Bb C D Eb F G
G harmonic minor: G A Bb C D Eb F# G
G melodic minor: G A Bb C D E F# G

Only the latter two have the F# that is present in the D7 chord. So over a D7 chord in the key of G minor, you could play a G harmonic minor from D to D, or a G melodic minor from D to D.


*This option is a good rule of thumb for playing bass lines and accompaniment - play the chord tones to strongly outline the harmony. It also works for playing melodies but as an improviser, you can be more or less literal with the changes. Playing melodies is a bit less constrained really, but that's a different topic for another time perhaps.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Deerhunter1331' timestamp='1446206904' post='2897691']
I'm working my way through Hal Leonard's bass method, and it has been going great right up until now. I have just learnt the natural minor scale, so now I'm learning some basslines around it. Now, the key for 3 out of the 8 bars is D and the key signature for this is G minor.[/quote]

No, the key for the whole thing is G minor. There's a D7 chord in three of the bars, which is perfectly fine in G minor... minor keys are like that. You just have to sharpen the F to F#... but, in this tune you don't have to worry about it. There are no F#s to play.

[quote]I try to play it using D major scale but the notes go below the D, and you play notes which aren't part of the scale, such as C and E flat. I know that the relative minor scale of the D major is B natural minor, but if I try to use the B minor scale, then I still can't use it since it doesn't have the notes I need. I was thinking that since the B and E are flat, due to the key signature, then maybe I have to use the B flat minor scale, since it contains the notes that I need?[/quote]

Okay... since you're thinking about this anyway, let's start with the key of G major... The chords in G major are:

G
Am
Bm
C
D
Em
F#dim

Don't worry about the F#dim for the moment.

The others are all constructed from a root, a major or minor third and a perfect fifth. That's just the distance between the root note and the notes in the chord.

In tunes in G major, the D is often extended to a D7... that's a major triad (chord made from a root, major third and a fifth) and a minor seventh added on top. This is the most common type of extended chord (chord made from more than three notes).

The reason D7 is used is that it has a tense quality that makes the ear want it to move somewhere else... and that's to a G chord... it takes you home. We call this type of chord a dominant 7 chord.

Let's now think about G minor... the chords are:

Gm
Adim
Bb
Cm
Dm
Eb
F

If you were playing in the relative major key (Bb major), you'd use F7 as the dominant chord, and it would pull you nicely back to Bb... great.

In G minor there is no chord that makes you want to go home, ie. back to Gm. Dm to Gm is a weak movement. Extending the Dm to Dm7 doesn't provide the tension needed. The resolution from Dm7 to Gm is rubbish compared to D7 to G. [size=2](The reason is that the interaction of the major third and minor 7 in the dominant 7 chord is what causes the tension.)[/size]

So instead of putting up with such a sad state of affairs we cheat.

We steal the D7 from the key of G major and slot it into G minor.

D7 to Gm sounds great! It has all the tension we need!

We have to fiddle about with the notes we use a bit when playing a melody or bassline in Gm when we hit a D7 chord, but that's okay. We just change the F to an F# and give it a fancy pants name (harmonic minor). Sometimes we'll take the Eb up to an E natural (the jump from Eb to F# is a bit unmelodic) and call it the melodic minor.

[dlloyd]

With all due respect to Hector above, I'd suggest you try to forget about modes for the time being too. They are a horrendously misunderstood and misused part of music theory. They're pretty useful for mediaeval music and in some styles of jazz, but they have little relevance to most of us.

[Hector]

It's all good man. I'm not a teacher by any means, just answering the questions in the best way I can. There's a huge gulf between theory and practise in playing the bass - it's a combination of the two that makes for the best players.

[Deerhunter1331]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1446237996' post='2898097']
No, the key for the whole thing is G minor. There's a D7 chord in three of the bars, which is perfectly fine in G minor... minor keys are like that. You just have to sharpen the F to F#... but, in this tune you don't have to worry about it. There are no F#s to play.



Okay... since you're thinking about this anyway, let's start with the key of G major... The chords in G major are:

G
Am
Bm
C
D
Em
F#dim

Don't worry about the F#dim for the moment.

The others are all constructed from a root, a major or minor third and a perfect fifth. That's just the distance between the root note and the notes in the chord.

In tunes in G major, the D is often extended to a D7... that's a major triad (chord made from a root, major third and a fifth) and a minor seventh added on top. This is the most common type of extended chord (chord made from more than three notes).

The reason D7 is used is that it has a tense quality that makes the ear want it to move somewhere else... and that's to a G chord... it takes you home. We call this type of chord a dominant 7 chord.

Let's now think about G minor... the chords are:

Gm
Adim
Bb
Cm
Dm
Eb
F

If you were playing in the relative major key (Bb major), you'd use F7 as the dominant chord, and it would pull you nicely back to Bb... great.

In G minor there is no chord that makes you want to go home, ie. back to Gm. Dm to Gm is a weak movement. Extending the Dm to Dm7 doesn't provide the tension needed. The resolution from Dm7 to Gm is rubbish compared to D7 to G. [size=2](The reason is that the interaction of the major third and minor 7 in the dominant 7 chord is what causes the tension.)[/size]

So instead of putting up with such a sad state of affairs we cheat.

We steal the D7 from the key of G major and slot it into G minor.

D7 to Gm sounds great! It has all the tension we need!

We have to fiddle about with the notes we use a bit when playing a melody or bassline in Gm when we hit a D7 chord, but that's okay. We just change the F to an F# and give it a fancy pants name (harmonic minor). Sometimes we'll take the Eb up to an E natural (the jump from Eb to F# is a bit unmelodic) and call it the melodic minor.
[/quote]

I see now that you really have to look at how the chords sound and interact with each other. Also, how do you know in a G minor scale, which chord is which? is it the [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I ii iii IV V vi vii chord thing that Hector mentioned above?[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Do you recommend a book that explains this and allows me to put this into practise? I was thinking about going for Gary Willis' fretboard harmony for bass, as I don't really want to focus at any style of music just yet.[/font][/color]

[Deerhunter1331]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1446237996' post='2898097']
No, the key for the whole thing is G minor. There's a D7 chord in three of the bars, which is perfectly fine in G minor... minor keys are like that. You just have to sharpen the F to F#... but, in this tune you don't have to worry about it. There are no F#s to play.



Okay... since you're thinking about this anyway, let's start with the key of G major... The chords in G major are:

G
Am
Bm
C
D
Em
F#dim

Don't worry about the F#dim for the moment.

The others are all constructed from a root, a major or minor third and a perfect fifth. That's just the distance between the root note and the notes in the chord.

In tunes in G major, the D is often extended to a D7... that's a major triad (chord made from a root, major third and a fifth) and a minor seventh added on top. This is the most common type of extended chord (chord made from more than three notes).

The reason D7 is used is that it has a tense quality that makes the ear want it to move somewhere else... and that's to a G chord... it takes you home. We call this type of chord a dominant 7 chord.

Let's now think about G minor... the chords are:

Gm
Adim
Bb
Cm
Dm
Eb
F

If you were playing in the relative major key (Bb major), you'd use F7 as the dominant chord, and it would pull you nicely back to Bb... great.

In G minor there is no chord that makes you want to go home, ie. back to Gm. Dm to Gm is a weak movement. Extending the Dm to Dm7 doesn't provide the tension needed. The resolution from Dm7 to Gm is rubbish compared to D7 to G. [size=2](The reason is that the interaction of the major third and minor 7 in the dominant 7 chord is what causes the tension.)[/size]

So instead of putting up with such a sad state of affairs we cheat.

We steal the D7 from the key of G major and slot it into G minor.

D7 to Gm sounds great! It has all the tension we need!

We have to fiddle about with the notes we use a bit when playing a melody or bassline in Gm when we hit a D7 chord, but that's okay. We just change the F to an F# and give it a fancy pants name (harmonic minor). Sometimes we'll take the Eb up to an E natural (the jump from Eb to F# is a bit unmelodic) and call it the melodic minor.
[/quote]

Thanks for clearing it up for me, I think soon I will begin to study harmony, as I feel that it would help if I understood what I was playing, and how it was put together.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1446247889' post='2898170']
It's all good man. I'm not a teacher by any means, just answering the questions in the best way I can. There's a huge gulf between theory and practise in playing the bass - it's a combination of the two that makes for the best players.
[/quote]

Absolutely, but a lot of people go off on the wrong tangent when they first hear about modes and try to apply it to everything when just thinking about keys and chord tones is far more appropriate.

[scalpy]

Minor scales are a black art and often a line of best fit.

The example given is all based on the natural minor, the chord that's causing the confusion is the D7. This is built on the fifth note of G minor, therefore the dominant. Dominant are typically major chords so the third that should be F (in G natural minor) becomes F sharp. In those D7 bars the scale becomes G harmonic minor. This will sound slightly unusual as if you play the G harmonic minor starting on D you'll get D Eb F# G A Bb C. Building the correct chord on the root third fifth and seventh you get a D7 so no problems but you have this unusual interval of a semitone between the first and second and an augmented 2nd between the second and third- Eb and F#.

However the title of the piece suggests a spooky and unusual atmosphere so you can use that unusual harmony as a focus, perhaps a phrase starting on D, focuses on F# and A but uses Eb as passing note and you'll create a horror atmosphere, on purpose!

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Deerhunter1331' timestamp='1446285805' post='2898314']
I see now that you really have to look at how the chords sound and interact with each other. Also, how do you know in a G minor scale, which chord is which? is it the [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I ii iii IV V vi vii chord thing that Hector mentioned above?[/quote][/font][/color]

Yep.

Chords are constructed like snowmen on music paper...

Take the key of G major... The notes you have available to you are G A B C D E F# G

The "home" chord is G. It's made up of the first note, the third note and the fifth note (a triad):

G B D

If you play them together (preferably on a guitar or keyboard... sounds a bit muddy on a bass) you get a "nice happy sound".

Take G minor, the notes you have available are G A Bb C D Eb F G

The "home" chord is Gm. It's made up of the first note, the third note and the fifth note:

G Bb D

If you play them together you get a "sad sound".

That's all due to the difference between the major and minor 3rd... that Bb makes all the difference.

Now, if you construct triads from all of the notes in G major, you get:

G (G, B, D)
Am (A, C, E)
Bm (B, D, F#)
C (C, E, G)
D (D, F#, A)
Em (E, G, B )
F#dim (F#, A, C)

G C and D are constructed from the same "home chords" as you'd get in those major keys.
Am, Bm and Em are constructed from the same "home chords" as you'd get in those minor keys.
F#dim is a special case as it has a diminished fifth... don't worry about it for the moment.

Major keys always have the same pattern of major and minor chords... that's where the I ii iii IV V vi thing comes from... small letters for minors, capitals for majors.

The same thing goes for minor keys: i ii (dim) III iv v VI VII... but as you know, we sometimes turn that v into a V.

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][quote]Do you recommend a book that explains this and allows me to put this into practise? I was thinking about going for Gary Willis' fretboard harmony for bass, as I don't really want to focus at any style of music just yet.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

It's about thirty years since I did all this... the best thing you could do at an early stage is to approach it from the classical tradition. The ABRSM publish music theory books for this purpose... just go for the pink one (volume 1).

[url="http://www.musicroom.com/se/id_no/011274/details.html"]http://www.musicroom...74/details.html[/url]
And their music theory in practice books are good:

[url="http://www.musicroom.com/se/id_no/0442319/details.html"]http://www.musicroom...19/details.html[/url]

Edited October 31, 2015 by dlloyd

[Hector]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1446288173' post='2898331']


Absolutely, but a lot of people go off on the wrong tangent when they first hear about modes and try to apply it to everything when just thinking about keys and chord tones is far more appropriate.
[/quote]

You've come across as really dismissive of my contribution so far, perhaps you don't realise. I was polite enough to say it's fine for you to basically tell the op to ignore my input, no need to bludgeon your point home.

[Deerhunter1331]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1446289486' post='2898342']
[/font][/color]

Yep.

Chords are constructed like snowmen on music paper...

Take the key of G major... The notes you have available to you are G A B C D E F# G

The "home" chord is G. It's made up of the first note, the third note and the fifth note (a triad):

G B D

If you play them together (preferably on a guitar or keyboard... sounds a bit muddy on a bass) you get a "nice happy sound".

Take G minor, the notes you have available are G A Bb C D Eb F G

The "home" chord is Gm. It's made up of the first note, the third note and the fifth note:

G Bb D

If you play them together you get a "sad sound".

That's all due to the difference between the major and minor 3rd... that Bb makes all the difference.

Now, if you construct triads from all of the notes in G major, you get:

G (G, B, D)
Am (A, C, E)
Bm (B, D, F#)
C (C, E, G)
D (D, F#, A)
Em (E, G, B )
F#dim (F#, A, C)

G C and D are constructed from the same "home chords" as you'd get in those major keys.
Am, Bm and Em are constructed from the same "home chords" as you'd get in those minor keys.
F#dim is a special case as it has a diminished fifth... don't worry about it for the moment.

Major keys always have the same pattern of major and minor chords... that's where the I ii iii IV V vi thing comes from... small letters for minors, capitals for majors.

The same thing goes for minor keys: i ii (dim) III iv v VI VII... but as you know, we sometimes turn that v into a V.

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]

It's about thirty years since I did all this... the best thing you could do at an early stage is to approach it from the classical tradition. The ABRSM publish music theory books for this purpose... just go for the pink one (volume 1).

[url="http://www.musicroom.com/se/id_no/011274/details.html"]http://www.musicroom...74/details.html[/url]
And their music theory in practice books are good:

[url="http://www.musicroom.com/se/id_no/0442319/details.html"]http://www.musicroom...19/details.html[/url]
[/quote]

Thanks for the explanation. The book doesn't go on to explain chords within a scale just yet, but its good to know.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1446293299' post='2898382']
You've come across as really dismissive of my contribution so far, perhaps you don't realise. I was polite enough to say it's fine for you to basically tell the op to ignore my input, no need to bludgeon your point home.
[/quote]

That wasn't the intention, and I apologise if it came across that way.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Looks to me like this is being overcomplicated massively. There is no F# in the bars notated as D7, and there are no accidentals at any point on the score, so just follow the instruction to play the piece in open position next to the nut and make use of open strings where necessary, and flatten the Bs and Es as per key signature, no position shifting is required.

Apart from reading the piece accurately, you might want to look at the arpeggios for each of the indicated chords, and then see how they relate to the bassline, paying attention to how the chord tones are being targetted, and how the line moves between them.

[Hector]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1446296230' post='2898415']


That wasn't the intention, and I apologise if it came across that way.
[/quote]

Very kind of you to apologise (and a measure of what a nice community bc is!). I also apologise for being terse about it and taking it the wrong way - long week at work...

Now, a return to our scheduled programming

[The Jaywalker]

Ok, there's a wee bit of clarification needed here. It's important to realise that ABRSM theory texts are of no use whatsoever outside of a classical education. I know this as a professional Jazz bassist also teaching classical bass and ABRSM theory on behalf of a national Conservatoire. If you want to learn about harmony etc, then go down the Jazz textbook route - it's the "academic" contemporary/pop music, if you like.
To correct a couple of points made earlier; the basic chords in a key are as follows:
I maj7
II min7
IIImin7
IVmaj7
V7
VImin7
VIImin7b5 (sometimes called Half-Diminished)

It's important to add the sevenths of the chords or else you end up with the erroneous idea that chord VII is diminished; which it categorically is not. Diminished chords have a different harmonic function (not important to get into that just now!).

Also, in Minor key harmony there is no "borrowing" of a seventh chord from the parallel major to make chord V a dominant seventh. That's nonsense. Minor harmony uses either the Melodic or Harmonic minor scale as its base (hence the name, harmonic minor...it creates a V7 chord).

The most important thing to grasp when playing scales over chords is that you NEVER think of them as modes ie playing the same scale with different starting notes. In this case in point, playing G minor but playing it D to D.
I know that probably sounds contentious as there's about a quadrillion YouTube sites extolling this method (including one run by a guy called Scott....); but it's crap. Plain and simple. As a musical approach it results in pointless, scalar noodling which doesn't "gel" with the chord sequence or make much coherent sense. The guys who teach this way don't actually spend much of any time functioning in music that requires them to play these scales/chords. I feel strongly about this as I was led up the garden path as a beginner by this approach.

The main reason for this common error is misunderstanding the connection between a mode and a scale. If we're playing Modal music like So What or Impressions (all Dorian); then we're playing a mode. If we're talking in purely academic terms about where a scale comes from, then we can talk about eg, Dorian being the second mode of the Major scale. That's it. In any other circumstances, we're talking about Scales - Chord Scales to be precise. So called because if you take the basic chord (R, 3,5,7) and add the upper extensions (9,11 and 13) - all the notes together make up a scale.
Key of C
V7 is G7
G,B,D,F (1357)
A,C,F (9,11,13)
Extended chord is G13, which, by the mathematical nature of functional harmony, is also G mixolydian when expressed as a scale.

In the minor example from the OP, the D7 has upper extensions b9, 11 and b13 (Eb, G, Bb as extensions are taken from notes in the key, Gmin in this case). This results in a chord of D7b9b13 and scale sometimes called mixolydian b9b13 or Phrygian Major. It also happens to be the 5th mode of the Harmonic minor scale - but we DON'T think of it in those terms when creating lines or solos. We think of the chord and chord tones.

To illustrate this point further, let's look at other dominant 7th chords occurring in a major key. Old jazz tune All of Me.

Cmaj7 /// | //// | E7 /// |
Amin7 /// etc

E7 = E, G#, B, D (1357)
Extensions from key of C = F, A, C (b9, 11,b13)
We get the same scale (Mixolydian b9b13).
This Harmony and scale choices have been around since JS Bach.

In summary:

Scales aren't the most important thing: chords and the chord tones are. There are many possible scales which can fit with a given chord; so scales are essentially ways of decorating chord tones.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1446677696' post='2901484']
Ok, there's a wee bit of clarification needed here. It's important to realise that ABRSM theory texts are of no use whatsoever outside of a classical education. I know this as a professional Jazz bassist also teaching classical bass and ABRSM theory on behalf of a national Conservatoire. If you want to learn about harmony etc, then go down the Jazz textbook route - it's the "academic" contemporary/pop music, if you like.[/quote]

Fair enough... I took the ABRSM grades a long, long time ago and before I started playing guitar and bass... I feel they gave a solid foundation, certainly in terms of the relationship of chords to scales but, sure, there's probably a lot that's not so applicable.

[quote]To correct a couple of points made earlier; the basic chords in a key are as follows:
I maj7
II min7
IIImin7
IVmaj7
V7
VImin7
VIImin7b5 (sometimes called Half-Diminished)

It's important to add the sevenths of the chords or else you end up with the erroneous idea that chord VII is diminished; which it categorically is not. Diminished chords have a different harmonic function (not important to get into that just now!).

Also, in Minor key harmony there is no "borrowing" of a seventh chord from the parallel major to make chord V a dominant seventh. That's nonsense. Minor harmony uses either the Melodic or Harmonic minor scale as its base (hence the name, harmonic minor...it creates a V7 chord).

The most important thing to grasp when playing scales over chords is that you NEVER think of them as modes ie playing the same scale with different starting notes. In this case in point, playing G minor but playing it D to D.
I know that probably sounds contentious as there's about a quadrillion YouTube sites extolling this method (including one run by a guy called Scott....); but it's crap. Plain and simple. As a musical approach it results in pointless, scalar noodling which doesn't "gel" with the chord sequence or make much coherent sense. The guys who teach this way don't actually spend much of any time functioning in music that requires them to play these scales/chords. I feel strongly about this as I was led up the garden path as a beginner by this approach.

The main reason for this common error is misunderstanding the connection between a mode and a scale. If we're playing Modal music like So What or Impressions (all Dorian); then we're playing a mode. If we're talking in purely academic terms about where a scale comes from, then we can talk about eg, Dorian being the second mode of the Major scale. That's it. In any other circumstances, we're talking about Scales - Chord Scales to be precise. So called because if you take the basic chord (R, 3,5,7) and add the upper extensions (9,11 and 13) - all the notes together make up a scale.
Key of C
V7 is G7
G,B,D,F (1357)
A,C,F (9,11,13)
Extended chord is G13, which, by the mathematical nature of functional harmony, is also G mixolydian when expressed as a scale.

In the minor example from the OP, the D7 has upper extensions b9, 11 and b13 (Eb, G, Bb as extensions are taken from notes in the key, Gmin in this case). This results in a chord of D7b9b13 and scale sometimes called mixolydian b9b13 or Phrygian Major. It also happens to be the 5th mode of the Harmonic minor scale - but we DON'T think of it in those terms when creating lines or solos. We think of the chord and chord tones.

To illustrate this point further, let's look at other dominant 7th chords occurring in a major key. Old jazz tune All of Me.

Cmaj7 /// | //// | E7 /// |
Amin7 /// etc

E7 = E, G#, B, D (1357)
Extensions from key of C = F, A, C (b9, 11,b13)
We get the same scale (Mixolydian b9b13).
This Harmony and scale choices have been around since JS Bach.

In summary:

Scales aren't the most important thing: chords and the chord tones are. There are many possible scales which can fit with a given chord; so scales are essentially ways of decorating chord tones.
[/quote]

Okay, I agree with everything you say... but for heaven's sake, read the OP... he's asking how to put his fingers in the right place and you're telling him about the mixolydian b9b13?

[The Jaywalker]

Erm, yeah. He wants to know what to play on the D chord. I told him where to put his fingers. This stuff isn't difficult.