Jazz and Bass Guitar

[ltownbass]

I've been playing pretty conventional jazz for a little under a year with my bass guitar. I use some foam to dampen the strings and I've used this effect with some success.

However, the more I listen to jazz, the more my satisfaction with my own tone decreases. Instead it is replaced with the desire for a deep, woody tone with low sustain.

So I'm looking at fretless basses now, which I will try to use with the foam to dampen it and give a bit of a double bas thump.

I'm not sure if I will want the double bass sound in the long run. There are characteristics I like about playing bass guitar, but I've not quite got to a point where I'm satisfied either way.

Should I skip a stage and go straight for an upright?

Has anyone else experienced something similar?
What did you do? How did it work out?

Thanks,
Ryan

Edited November 3, 2015 by ltownbass

[tinyd]

There are examples of people playing "straight ahead" jazz on BG but these are very much the exception. It all depends on what you want to achieve. If you want to keep playing jazz because you're interested in the music then I'd recommend finding a double bass and having a try (maybe get a couple of lessons from a teacher). If you don't think it's for you, then you can carry on with the BG and make it work in a jazz setting. But I'm guessing that once you hear the sound from a DB you'll want to get one ASAP. That's a whole other journey, of course, but personally I've never looked back. And strangely enough, even though I rarely touch my BG these days, my playing on it has improved because in my experience learning the upright has forced me into a much more disciplined approach to bass playing in general.

[Mykesbass]

I take it you've seen this thread: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/272344-p-bass-in-contemporary-jazz/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/272344-p-bass-in-contemporary-jazz/[/url]

[zero9]

If you're hankering after an upright tone, there's only one solution imo.

When you first start out, it won't sound anything like what you hear on a recording. It'll take time and lots of practice to develop a good tone on upright.

[ambient]

Have you tried a set of decent flats ?

[White Cloud]

You need to know that there is no objective correct answer to your query as music is art ...and therefore there are no rules.

Personally, I think it is absolutely fantastic that you have an inclination towards the type of tone/sound that you wish to achieve - arriving at ones stated destination is always easier when said place has been clearly signposted. How you achieve the sound that you can clearly hear internally is however another matter altogether. I suggest a process of trial and error with all available means within your own budgetary resources to be the best way forward.

I personally experienced a similar conundrum regarding the type of woody, low end sustain/growl sound that I could hear internally that I wished to attain...and an electric Warwick fretless bass proved to be my solution - but of course that was just my own individualistic solution.

Trial and error. Seek and find.

[TheGreek]

I recently traded a Shuker fretless, it exuded that fretless/ double bass tone that you're after. The fella I bought it from claimed that when he gigged it members of the audience would often come up to him and ask where his DB was.

If you don't want to go down the DB route you could always get yourself a Ashbory bass - don't be fooled into thinking it's a toy...makes all the right noises you'd expect from a real DB and you can pick one up for under £150.

[project_c]

I play jazz almost all the time using nothing but a p-bass. Flat wounds will help a bit, but what really helps is turning down the tone knob just a bit, playing a bit nearer to the neck, and most importantly learning how to walk and solo in a reasonable legitimate way. In my opinion (which could well be wrong) you could play jazz on any bass, as long as you've developed your jazz language and vocabulary to a decent level. If you need inspiration, watch Tom Warrington play his precision with Buddy Rich - 100% legit jazz as far as my ears are concerned. I personally don't buy into any kind of music having to be played on any specific instrument, it's a bizarre concept as far as I'm concerned. If you want to do it as a job, the context is different, but that's a whole other conversation.

Edited November 3, 2015 by project_c

[tinyd]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1446559598' post='2900286']
If you don't want to go down the DB route you could always get yourself a Ashbory bass - don't be fooled into thinking it's a toy...makes all the right noises you'd expect from a real DB and you can pick one up for under £150.
[/quote]

Along the same lines as the Ashbory, the Kala Ubass also seems capable of getting a tone that's similar to upright. This guy's videos really make me want to buy one:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XChCuQ37DHA

[JamesBass]

I play standards and trad jazz on a P bass with TI flats, and while I don't have an out and out upright bass tone, I do have a VERY pleasing and usable tone to get ball park with the records, which for me is all you can really aim to do unless you're in a tribute band/the DM specifically asks for the exact tone.

[Marc S]

[quote name='tinyd' timestamp='1446564416' post='2900341']
Along the same lines as the Ashbory, the Kala Ubass also seems capable of getting a tone that's similar to upright. This guy's videos really make me want to buy one:-
[/quote]

I had an Ashbory, and didn't get on with it. Since then I bought a Kala Ubass, and much prefer that
It does sound quite DB-like and some EQ'ing can get quite a convincing DB sound

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1446564442' post='2900342']
I play standards and trad jazz on a P bass with TI flats, and while I don't have an out and out upright bass tone, I do have a VERY pleasing and usable tone to get ball park with the records, which for me is all you can really aim to do unless you're in a tribute band/the DM specifically asks for the exact tone.
[/quote]

I was also going to suggest trying some flats, if you haven't already tried it?
As a bass guitarist who went down the DB route myself, there are some good replies from people on here
Firstly, define exactly what you want from the tone and general "feel" of your bass playing, and how it would fit into the band(s) you play with. Nothing else is quite like a DB. Kala's may sound like one, but it's not quite the same richness of sound, and certainly doesn't feel like playing DB

I would say, try to hire a DB, and get some DB lessons - see how you enjoy (or not) playing a DB - But, give it some time
In the meantime, try putting some flats on your bass. A lot of folk on here seem to recommend TI's, and I'll be trying them myself soon. Most of all, see it as a journey, and have some fun experimenting

PS. A lot of EUB's don't sound or feel like DB either. I started out with a Stagg EUB. It was cheap, and it got me started
Since then, I discovered I love playing DB......

EDIT: As JamesBass says, it doesn't have to be a DB tone to be a very pleasing tone

Edited November 3, 2015 by Marc S

[TheGreek]

The problem with Ashbory basses seems to be the white rubber strings - I'm told that stringing them with the black strings from a Kala is a marked improvement.

[skywalker]

I have a jazz with TI jazz flats that I now use specifically when I am with a jazz quartet and get good comments from my band mates.

[MoonBassAlpha]

I used to use a fretless with foam at the bridge and the tone rolled off a fair bit. I added a blend of the very shortest reverb setting from an Alesis Microverb to give a slight hollowness to the sound. I thought it sounded reasonably close, and would have been even more convincing if I could even remotely play jazz

[Bilbo]

Double bass. I did the electric bass playing Jazz thing for 28 years. Wasted time. Do the (up) right thing.

[ezbass]

You could try a Rob Allen

http://youtu.be/ycN9x_5MqHQ

Also check out Steve Swallow for use of an electric bass in a jazz setting.

[ambient]

Check out Anthony Jackson, he gets my ideal electric bass in a jazz setting

[alyctes]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1446566873' post='2900370']
The problem with Ashbory basses seems to be the white rubber strings - I'm told that stringing them with the black strings from a Kala is a marked improvement.
[/quote]

Yes. Either Pahoehoe strings or Aquila Thunderguts seem good to me. Avoid the originals (off-white translucent silicone, often badged "Fender"), the G string breaks if you looks cross-eyed at it.

[JoeEvans]

There are also various parallel discussions taking place in other threads in which double bassists talk about how they use magnetic pickups to avoid feedback even though they make their double basses sound more or less like electric basses, and agree that in the context of a full band, that doesn't really matter that much...

[Marc S]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1446566873' post='2900370']
The problem with Ashbory basses seems to be the white rubber strings - I'm told that stringing them with the black strings from a Kala is a marked improvement.
[/quote]

Yes, I must say, I absolutely hated the strings on the Ashbory. They felt odd, and there was an awful lot of drag. The instrument is supplied with a substance not unlike talcum powder. Using this on your hands improves the drag, but makes a mess. The black rubber strings on the Kala also feel odd, as they're very low tension, and can tend to "roll" - But I found them much better and easier to get used to than the Ashbory strings

Also, the Ashbory's E string has a tendency to pop out of the slot in the nut! And mine didn't need particularly aggressive playing for this to happen. I wrapped a rubber band around the headstock, just the other side of the nut - this worked well, but looked a bit odd, obviously. The Kala doesn't seem to suffer from this. I sold my Ashbory after a few months - but my Kala is going nowhere. Though I don't use it loads, it's fun and great when you need portability

EDIT: I also played another Ashbory which was strung with Aguillar Thunderguts, and they seemed very similar to the Ashbory's original strings. You could try an Ashbory with the strings used on a Kala. These may also be made by Aguillar - but they're not thunderguts

Edited November 4, 2015 by Marc S

[ltownbass]

Thanks everyone for responding so quickly and with such good advice.

I feel like I should clarify some things. I'm listening to jazz pretty much as often as I can. I've recently got into it and I'm beginning to develop some proficiency when reading chord charts and generally playing jazz.
Normally I use a fretted G&L tribute. I have flats on a DIY fretless bass on which I use foam to dampen the strings. Yesterday I made the neck a more bowed and raised the action so that I have to fight it a little more and I must say it feels and sounds a lot better than before(more ballsy and less jaco) .

I'm most tempted to listen to the advice of Tinyd, Bilbo and zero9: Do the (up) right thing. This may be because they are saying what I expected or wanted to hear.

People tend to play differently on guitars. There seems to be a lot less emphasis on the depth and placement of notes. These are reasons why I'd like to make the switch.
I think I want to the dynamic range you get with the upright bass. It seems like you can put so much expression in within your straight four notes per bar and guitarist have to use placement and muting among other things.

However, I agree that in a band context it's unlikely to make a huge difference; especially in my crappy bands.

I think I'm gonna try some big heavy flats on my fretless and see how that goes for now.
I'm almost certainly gonna buy one of those Stagg EUBs to begin with. They go for something like £200 on here, I can't really go wrong with something like that.

Thanks and keep the advice coming,
Ryan

Edited November 4, 2015 by ltownbass

[Bilbo]

By all means try the Stagg but you'll GAS for the real thin,I guarantee it

[The Jaywalker]

Electric bass sounding good in a jazz setting is definitely a bit of a rarity; but it can sound amazing if you get into the music in an immersive way and study jazz walking bass concepts and phrasing.

Another thing to consider over and above tone is volume. Electric bass is a much more present and projecting sound than upright - you need much less onstage volume than you think.

[Norris]

The Stagg is a very cheap introduction to upright playing. I'm very happy with mine although I don't play it nearly as often as I should. If you buy second hand you won't lose out if/when you decide to move it on. It's not quite the same as a real DB but still makes a very passable sound.

[The Jaywalker]

Check out Jaco in more straight ahead jazz vibes:
http://youtu.be/I4rfe5xHCIg

Baron Browne is, imho, probably the best example of straight ahead jazz on electric bass
http://youtu.be/lGr5i-cZRSI