Action

[Bilbo]

I hosted a gig last night which included bass player Yuri Goloubev, a Russian guy with a background in classical music but who plays great Jazz. His Arco work is sublime.

His left hand technique was flawless so, at the end of the gig, I felt the action on his bass to find it no higher than an electric. I want an action that low so I can have the kind of facility he has. My current action, recently lowered, is massive by comparison but I am anxious that I may lose something if I take it too far.

What's the collective view?

[Beer of the Bass]

You can lose some acoustic volume and projection if you take it really low so it depends how much of a priority that is to you, but a good player will still pull out a full tone that way even if it's less loud. For certain styles and sounds (NHOP etc.) a low setup does seem to be the convention, and if that's what you're going for it would be silly to battle on with anything else. Adjusters are the way forward, as you can play around until you find the optimum height for your own playing, and go back if you feel you've taken it too far.
For myself, I like what would probably count as a medium action, currently 7-10mm with Spiro Mittels, but I have friends who like to jam unamplified and I'm not doing anything that's especially ambitious technically - I'm not much of a soloist. I would certainly take it a bit lower if my bread and butter was amplified jazz gigs where I was required to solo regularly.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Beer of the Bass

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Get a good luthier to sort it and it will play buzz free with very low action, but you might want to get an adjustable bridge(or get adjusters fitted -about £20 pair), as varying the action height changes the pressure on the top, which in turn influences the acoustic output - I currently have my action lower than I would prefer as I've been rehabilitating an injury, but on my DB there is a definite sweet spot related to the action height/string tension relationship.

I haven't had chance to test with different strings (e.g. if I swapped to spiro mittels from the weichs I'm using atm, would my bass hit the sweet spot with the action at a lower height as a result of the change in tension & mass). The loss of acoustic volume might be a non issue if you are regularly using an amp, but at least with an adjustable bridge you would have options.

[philparker]

I still consider my action 'medium', but it is 5, 6, 7, 8 mm, as set up by Martin Penning and I am aware that T&G Martin also advocate a similar set up; there is no buzz whatsoever played pizz (I don't slap or 'dig in') and it is a joy to play arco, but I wouldn't be able to transition into the thumb position so smooth if I had it much higher (a discipline I'm just getting to grips with!).

[The Jaywalker]

The bottom line is that string action mainly affects acoustic volume. Orchestral bassists use adjusters as a volume control depending on whether they're playing section or solo stuff.
From a jazz perspective, I reckon there's a tonal input as well. If you play with a lower action and start to raise it, you'll notice the sustain may start to fade a bit sooner and the overall character may be more old-school in nature. On my bass it's quite a fine balance where the tone and feel starts to change, enough to be noticeable with the change of seasons and require tweaking.
My own action is between 4-5mm on the g side, rising to 9-10mm on the e. Being a bit incrementally higher on the lower strings than the Gage setup mentioned earlier gives a better low end response and more growl on the e string.
You won't lose anything by lowering your action apart from acoustic volume perhaps. Please don't listen to any "dig in" "big sound" "high action required" guilt-trip stuff. At the end of the day, a big sound is a full, rich tone - and that's completely different from how subjectively loud your bass is. In fact, a lot of basses resonate a bit more freely and give up more tone when the action is lowered a bit/tension released. And it's easier to play well with a manageable action. Effortless mastery vs the sound of struggle? I know which I prefer!

[Hector]

Food for thought, Rob:

http://doublebassguide.com/?p=573

I think the moral of the story is that you have to be true to yourself on this one. Your guiding light should be the sound you hear in your head, so keep chasing it! You gotta be relaxed on the bass too - if you're fighting the instrument, you'll be able to hear it to some extent in your playing.

You could easily try lowering your strings a bit, and see how that changes things for you. If you got some bridge adjusters put in, you could always fiddle about a bit until you find something that works.

What are they set at now?

[Bilbo]

Don't know the maths and will check he measurements when I can get to it.

My issues are the fluency of phrasing and stamina at tempo. I am working so hard all the time that I can feel myself flagging long before the end of a gig. Also thumb position playing is very difficult with a. 'high' action.

[TPJ]

You could try a "softer" string with higher action. Velvet strings are lower tension and easier to play with a higher action. I just swapped out some Velvet Blues on one bass for some Presto Balance Hybrid light strings and with the same action, the Prestos are harder to play. They sound nicer, but I'have to play more on that bass to keep up strength. Much of the Innovation range are lower tension as well.

[The Jaywalker]

If your bass has a high action and corresponding higher tension, it can be difficult to play dynamically, as you may need a certain amount of pressure in the RH to make the bass speak. With a more manageable action, you can play with far less RH input and still make the bass speak fully. Also, it's possible to lighten your RH touch as the tempo increases to a far greater degree. My advice would be to lower your action and practice faster tempos with RH being your main focus. Don't go straight for a higher tempo, or else you'll likely play too hard and tire. Practice 300bpm by playing at 150, then doubling the tempo and focussing on lightening your touch. Going between the two helps cement the physical feeling of lightening your RH attack as the tempo increases. Hope this helps ;-)

[Hector]

I think there are two factors: playability and sound. You need a tension that makes your bass speak well, but you also need to not be fighting the bass. That's based on string tension and action.

[b]However [/b]playability is also intimately related to your technique (of course).

In terms of set up: you could try fiddling with different heights (adjuster wheels are the route to go down), check that the shape of your fingerboard and bridge is decent. You could vary the strings, though I think I remember you're on eva pirazzi weichs, right? Already pretty playable. TPJ is dead on about lighter strings and higher action being a possibility too.

You could also try playing around with the height of the bass, which can change how you engage your upper body through to your core and legs to stop the string.

I do think though, Rob, that you could check your technique, even if you're going to lower your action (do let us know what you're at for now). A lot of a feeling of fighting the bass is psychological and as Jay said, the pressure between left and right hands is hard to dissociate.

Try this bass-mindfulness exercise to check you're using your body well:

Set your metronome to 40bpm. Holding the bass, close your eyes and take 10 deep breaths in and out. Focus only on your breath. Now, play an open G, and then, letting it ring, play G on the E string [i]as lightly as you can[/i]. Stop the note with 4. Play minims You can keep your eyes closed if it helps, I find it allows me to listen more closely to my body. Play the quietest notes you can get from your bass. Think soft with your left and right hands. You should be able to feel how gentle your left hand can be whilst still stopping a good note. Whilst staying quiet, try to get a good firm tone with no buzzing. Keep repeating this, whilst playing with the parameters of your left hand. Where is your thumb most comfortable? Try moving it back and forth. Are you able to take your left thumb off the neck whilst still stopping a note? Do you need to roll your left hand slightly towards the floor? What about raising or dropping your elbow?

Now zoom out a bit and focus more on your body as a whole. Is your breathing relaxed and in time with the metronome? Is your weight evenly distributed between your two legs? Are your knees slightly bent, not locked? Is your back straight? Are your shoulders relaxed and not hunched? Is your head straight on your neck? Look for any tension and seek to eliminate it. You're most comfortable in a natural standing pose with the bass coming to you, rather than contorting yourself around the instrument.

Do this for a good 20-30 minutes. Once you start to find a relaxed left hand, try to start increasing the volume by putting more in via the right hand. Whatever you do, keep that feeling of relaxation in your left hand. Don't tense up. Try to keep your right hand set at a given force and keep the sound absolutely consistent until you decide to change it. You want this feeling of relaxation present in whatever you do, whatever tempo you walk at, and wherever you play on the bass.

You can move on from focusing on your left hand, if it's comfortable, to your right. Otherwise, you can just focus on right hand in the same way playing open strings. Maybe that's a topic for another post, but broadly think the same - relaxation is key. You want to be making contact with as much of the finger as possible, and trying to pull through the string. Your hand does a motion a bit like turning a doorknob. Keep your right thumb anchored on the back (or side as you play the upper strings) of the fingerboard, right at the end. Your right arm should be relaxed and loose, and the pizz motion should come through your shoulder and back. I like to think of my elbow coming towards the body of the bass Gently does it. Aim for consistency of attack and relaxation.

You can do this as often as you feel helpful. I like to do this, with either focus or both, for 5-10 mins as a little warm up every time I pick up the bass.

[Bilbo]

Filed another mill. off the C and G strings last night. Gently does it!!

[gypsyjazzer]

My '2 cents' worth--if this helps.

I have played for many years D/B---Guitar and Banjo. I have spent a lot of time experimenting with action / bridges / tailpieces and strings. All 3 instruments have the same conclusion--the lower the action the less volume and tone. Having said that every instrument has it's 'sweet spot'--not to high and not to low--spend time & experiment! Also comes into the equation the type of music you wish to play--the sound your after--more experimenting-----------------------------------

[Owen]

I have messed with action using adjusters. What did it for me was that with a super low action the bass just did not respond in the way I wanted. It was not a volume issue it was a "voice" issue for the instrument.

[Owen]

This sounds like an issue a DB bash would help with. Lots of basses with different set ups. The last one was fun. Shall we?

[herbass]

I really took it gradually as I went from 7-11mm to 4-8mm over about five years time. Every time I took off another millimeter it all gotten better. With better playability there is better sound. I don't feel that I'd have lost any power and I can dig in if I want to. I can use more finesse in shaping the sound, and play with less fatigue. The bass growls if I want it to, and moves air just as good.
Just because its a big double bass, it doesn't have to be hard to play...

[blinddrew]

When people are quoting action heights above, where on the fingerboard is that measured? At the octave?

[philparker]

End of the fingerboard in my case!

[BenTunnicliffe]

[quote name='owen' timestamp='1447368708' post='2907234']
I have messed with action using adjusters. What did it for me was that with a super low action the bass just did not respond in the way I wanted. It was not a volume issue it was a "voice" issue for the instrument.
[/quote]

I am very new to the double bass thing but must admit that I found the whole action/tension/string/sound thing to be far more of a headache on DB than I ever have for electric basses and thus ended up asking the same questions to lots of people and thought my 2p couldn't go a miss! (Who knows, I might get some more answers!)

First thing worth noting is that Yuri (I've had a lesson with him where I used his own bass) does indeed have undeniably low action so you're not going mad! Secondly, he uses low tension strings. Needless to say his bass is a beautiful instrument that has been well set up and maintained but I must admit that I've never found that low tension strings with low action makes for a easier instrument to play in regards to the things that really matter to me. I shouldn't be tense when I play with any kind of action or string tension but being that my own DB has medium/high action (7-10mm) I find that I can't play for as long before my hands get a bit pitchy due to getting tired. Conversely, the difference in pressure required to play a higher action bass actually means that I often 'choke' other people's basses at jam sessions if they have low action due to playing too hard. I also find that I overshoot when pitching due to the lack of resistance.
From what I've gathered in the past couple of years of digging into the world of Upright it seems that the action thing is more trying to balance what sound you want with an element of practicality regarding how often you are able to practise to develop/maintain the muscles required for playing with higher action. Some people get really macho about action and I think that's really foolish because we've all still got to pitch, keep time and pick notes out of thin air just the same!

Despite the personal preference element though, I think what Owen raised is very important from what I've heard other experienced DB players (and Owen knows his $h1t!) talk about in regards to all basses having a certain ballpark string/playing style that they naturally ask for. A friend of mine recently got a beautiful very old french bass and instantly took it to his local shop to have his usual strings put on it and the action brought to how he liked it - medium tension, medium/high action. He told me within just a couple of days how awful it sounded. The bass had been built in a way that meant that hammering away with a heavy right hand and beefy setup was overexciting the front of the bass and that the vibrations seemed to somehow cancel themselves out and gave him a thin tone that didn't project at all. He swapped back to lower tension, eased off with his right hand and immediately the sound was full and the bass sprung to life.

Hopefully someone else here might be able to talk about that a bit, for my sake?

I took in my DB to have an adjustable bridge fitted and was told that the fingerboard would need plaining to make it more even (it's a relatively old bass) to accommodate a lower string. The work was done but it was impossible to take it down to the somewhat standard 5-8mm setup as they would have to take off enough wood for the end of the fingerboard to start losing stability - it's meant I haven't had much choice in my action!

Personally though - I have more often than not, found that the upright basses I have played with low action & low tension setups possess a sound in the realm of getting very pickup-y out front, on stage acoustically OR listening thru the amp. I can only hazard a guess that this might be because the wood of the bass is percentage wise having less of a say in the overall chain of events due to more amp having to be used to get up to more working volumes. I do occasionally do completely acoustic video sessions with a folk group which voids any option of even experimenting with super low action and I have admittedly heard people get [i]huge [/i]sounds out of low setups but in my short period of looking, they seem less common to my ears. I have also found it a tiny bit odd that while we can all agree that we could play for longer and with less pressure in our hands by having low setups that in any jam sessions with a couple of different basses present that everyone plays [i]their[/i] setup well but I never really see people executing things that are noticeably far apart even if one person has high action and one has low....

Edited December 9, 2015 by BenTunnicliffe

[The Jaywalker]

Few things to consider. Sounds like you could do with a new fingerboard to get your bass playing as it could. It happens with older instruments that have been planed over the years. It may focus the sound a bit more and add some sustain to the bass as well.
In terms of hammering away with a heavy right hand and a beefy setup...that will make ANY bass clam up. Guys like Ray Brown and Rufus Reid have a lot to say on that topic.
As I've said before; string height mostly affects volume. In terms of sounding "pickupy" , do you mean that the acoustic sound of the bass has more mwah/sustain so sounds a bit "electric" to some ears? There's no issue at all with a lower action not making the bass speak or vibrate correctly - you're way wide of the mark there - it's just a lower acoustic volume. In terms of more amp volume being needed to support the acoustic sound; that's only going to apply in a tiny room with a small acoustic ensemble. In most rooms/gig settings, if you're amplified; you're amplified. In most venues the idea that the bass on its own will cut through drums, sax, piano/gtr with little amp input to support is wishful thinking. I remember reading something by a US bass luthier who'd seen the Mingus sextet pre-pickup/amp days. He said Mingus sounded great on intros - but as soon as the band started he was as inaudible as any other bassist back then...
Interestingly enough I hired out my bass to a visiting US bassist who moaned like hell about my action and insisted he couldn't play without raising it. I allowed him to mess with the setup. On the gig, he played with a really heavy right hand - every note as hard as he could. The end result of that "acoustic" approach? He still had to use an amp (piano, drums and sax in a medium room) AND had to vary the amp volume from tune to tune depending on the vibe because he had no control of his sound. My bass sounded like sh@t for about a week after that gig!
My advice to anyone is to experiment. Get the string tension right for your preference and your bass and get the action as low as is comfortable for your playing style and sonic preference. The bass should be as user-friendly as possible. At the end of the day, we need to amplified in many/most situations and there's good quality pickups, mics and amps/speakers out there to facilitate that: worrying about the actual acoustic volume of the instrument is ultimately unhelpful unless you're going to commit to playing acoustically 100% of the time.

[Beer of the Bass]

I keep wondering about having a little more taken off mine. I've got adjusters, but they bottom out at about 6.5mm on the G. I was playing a lot of unamplified stuff when I had my current bridge fitted, so the luthier set it up with that in mind. My fingerboard is well dressed and I'm pretty much settled on Spiro Mittels, so it could certainly stand to come down a little. Due to neighbour issues I'm not getting in the practice time that I'd like and I feel like I may as well make things as friendly for myself as I can.
Both Herbass and The Jaywalker I've heard playing and not felt like their tone was lacking in any way, so that makes this thread a useful reference point.

[Rabbie]

I started off in the 'high action is best' camp and gut strings to boot. I felt that I had somehow to keep the flame of the old guys alive. Had that for years and thought I was the bees knees. Then I saw the light only a couple of months ago. Fed up of struggling with hard to play instruments, switched to low action and steels and I sound waaaaaaaay groovier and more relaxed. My action is not really mega low (7mm-11mm), but it was well high before (12-16mm and guts). The former approach suited me at one time, when slapping was my bread and butter; the latter suits me now, I slap much less. Each to their own I say, listen to your fingers and your years and the decision will be the right one, then keep an open mind anyway.

[Owen]

[quote name='Rabbie' timestamp='1449701503' post='2926199']
I sound waaaaaaaay groovier and more relaxed.
[/quote]

Now THAT is where it is at!

[BenTunnicliffe]

[quote name='Rabbie' timestamp='1449701503' post='2926199']
My action is not really mega low (7mm-11mm), but it was well high before (12-16mm and guts).
[/quote]

First of all - JEEEEEZ!! 12mm?!

Secondly it's great to get a point of reference on what some people refer to as 'low' action etc. I was told a while ago that 5-8mm was pretty standard as a 'low' setup and when my fingerboard was flattened it could only get down to 7-10mm or something similar and was apologising quite a bit about it not being as low as other basses manage to go.

Thanks to everyone for the responses. It's great hearing about these things. It does seem that there is more of an argument that action in fact [i]isn't[/i] as much of a bearing on the tone produced (acoustically or otherwise!) as some of us entry-level DBers are lead to believe. Would you agree with that or do you guys consider it more of a case that with modern amplification etc the cons of higher action and/or tighter strings are massively outweighed by the pros of going low?

Also, while I'm here, I have been told on numerous occasions that it's worth slowly raising the action of your double bass (provided you have an adjustable bridge) as you slowly get your $h1t together and your hands get stronger and that it is the route to sounding more proper..... Myth?

[Rabbie]

[quote name='BenTunnicliffe' timestamp='1449703905' post='2926224']


First of all - JEEEEEZ!! 12mm?!

yes but bear in mind it was with raw gut strings and primarily slapping sets.

Also, while I'm here, I have been told on numerous occasions that it's worth slowly raising the action of your double bass (provided you have an adjustable bridge) as you slowly get your $h1t together and your hands get stronger and that it is the route to sounding more proper..... Myth?
[/quote]

That was the general consensus in older days, I myself got trapped in that school of thought. Probably myth in 2015 IMO.
Truth is:
1- you get older, tire more easily, even as an experienced player.
2 - you become a better musician and wish to express yourself more fluid-ly
3 - you almost always play through an amp or DI.
All lf this points to getting a bass that you find enjoyable to play. For some, that means a very low action, for other a slightly higher action, but probably rarely a super high action. Still my opinion though, no gospel by any means.

[tinyd]

Before my last rehearsal I lowered my bridge a little bit and my sound and intonation were a bit crapper than normal, plus I had unusual cramps in my right hand. Now this could be because I haven't been practicing as much as I should, but I think it might also be that the lower action was making me overplay to compensate for the lower volume. So I guess it's always worth experimenting.