What is the point of 200w amps

[Freddy Le Cragg]

For "normal" gigs I use my 150 watt solid state Marlin at around half volume. . For a bit of oomph for bigger shows I have a matching 150 watt slave power amp. Both running through a Kustom Groove bass 2x 18 cab. Volume and headroom to spare.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1447199786' post='2905821']
Although doubling the watts "is hardly worth it" in terms of volume , is there any case for saying that if you are running a 250 watt amp at 250 watts then it is running flat out, so components will be maxxed out. For the same watts and volume from a 500W amp the amp and its components will running well below max, and hence might be more reliable?

I might be talking Bollocks.
[/quote]

All things being equal then yes your right, but there are other factors such as the amount of thermal headroom in the design - an amp with well designed cooling running at its maximum design power is going to be more reliable that a poorly designed one that isn't maxed out but is running its components hotter.

PA amps for example are generally designed and tested to run continuously at maximum because if thats often how they are used, these days I would hope that most decent quality bass amps are also build this way.

IME your much more likely to get a mechanical failure (knobs/switches/sockets etc) from most amps than an electrical one.

[tonewheels]

[quote name='bonzodog' timestamp='1447106819' post='2905015']
I may not have explained my question very well.
What I mean is for example, if I was looking to buy a new bass head and looked at for instance the TC Electronics BH250 against the BH550, then if I look at reviews for both, there are lots of questions as to whether the BH250 is loud enough, and some say possibly not, where as the BH550 will be loud enough but also quiet enough to use at home. So what is the point in risking buying the BH250 if its not loud enough when its the same size, weight etc ? Is it just down to price.
[/quote]

Try putting a sine wave through your computer monitors (Use an organ drawbar in garageband or whatever if necessary), monitor with a cheap or free decibel meter in your smartphone and adjust the volume by 3dB to hear the difference between 250W and 500W. It's bugger all.

[dincz]

[quote name='tonewheels' timestamp='1447455075' post='2907866']adjust the volume by 3dB to hear the difference between 250W and 500W. It's bugger all.
[/quote]

https://soundcloud.com/dincz-1/3db

[paulnb57]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1447100216' post='2904916']
I'll have most of my amps up around 1' o clock on the dial, at least, and the smallest is 500w.



I recently listened to a whole day of music at a charity bass and the pub hired in a P.A which had 6 boxes including subs.
After the first two bands... you couldn't hear what the bass player was playing altho you knew it was still there.
I don't know why they bothered, tbh as it was so draining and tiring on the ear.

I think many bass players can be heard..to a degree in a pub with all the guys playng loud, but what exactly can you hear and what can he play?
Maybe you don't need to hear more than they've got and maybe you don't want to...but you get a loud drummer and a pokey gtr like
a Les Paul or SG and you have a wall of sound that notr many basses and rigs will get passed ...and I mean 'passed' as in you can hear what the bass player is doing.

This free for all should not be about a wall of sound, it should be about the layers of the sound... and you need people to stay out of each others sonic space as well as staying out of their playing space...


[/quote]

Reminds me of Iggy Pop at th Isle of Wight festival a while back. It was a wall of noise.....Iggy strutting about, like he does, climbs onto the bass rig, the bass player stops playing and a roadie appears at the bass amp. The band keep playing, now just Iggy wailing, drums beating and heavily distorted guitar, bass amp fixed, bass resumes. If I hadn't seen it and Iggy apologised to the basist, no one would have known! The whole set the bassist might as well have stayed in hostility getting blathered!

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='tonewheels' timestamp='1447455075' post='2907866']
Try putting a sine wave through your computer monitors (Use an organ drawbar in garageband or whatever if necessary), monitor with a cheap or free decibel meter in your smartphone and adjust the volume by 3dB to hear the difference between 250W and 500W. It's bugger all.
[/quote]

Its a bit of a circular augment though, by the same token the difference between 250 and 125 is also "bugger all" ditto for 125 and 62.5 - at some point the "bugger all"s accumulate to something significant otherwise we'd all be a 50w amp. The "bugger all" between 250 and 500 might, depending on circumstances, just be the one that crosses the line between loud enough and not loud enough.

Edited November 19, 2015 by bassman7755

[rebo213]

About the common answer "I only put my volume at 1 or 9 o´clock or whatever", keep in mind that most amp manufacturers make their volume controls to work mostly in the first half of the pot... Usually from 8 to 11 there´s no audible increase of volume. Some brands like Euphonic Audio use to claim that they where the only who uses "real volume control".

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='rebo213' timestamp='1447942208' post='2911689']
About the common answer "I only put my volume at 1 or 9 o´clock or whatever", keep in mind that most amp manufacturers make their volume controls to work mostly in the first half of the pot... Usually from 8 to 11 there´s no audible increase of volume.
[/quote]

The master vol needs sufficient boost headroom to account for widely differing preamp signal levels that result from the different drive and eq settings available. It should be borne in mind that a master volume is a power amp [b]input[/b] gain control not an output limiting control (I'm hoping most BC regulars know that by now ).

[rebo213]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1447950312' post='2911777'] The master vol needs sufficient boost headroom to account for widely differing preamp signal levels that result from the different drive and eq settings available. It should be borne in mind that a master volume is a power amp [b]input[/b] gain control not an output limiting control (I'm hoping most BC regulars know that by now ). [/quote]

So, Bob Gollihur needs to know that. He was the one who told me about the "fake volume" when I bought my EA amp from him 10 years ago.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1447251798' post='2906144']
No but I bet a lot of them have hearing damage!
[/quote]Most of mine comes from a 100W Sound City stack in the 70s when I was a Guitard. Seriously surely a Retro 210 would be a monster wit a 200W amp?

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1447950312' post='2911777']
The master vol needs sufficient boost headroom to account for widely differing preamp signal levels that result from the different drive and eq settings available. It should be borne in mind that a master volume is a power amp [b]input[/b] gain control not an output limiting control (I'm hoping most BC regulars know that by now ).
[/quote]Most are an input attenuators not gain controls.

[LennyP]

[color=#222222]As with most questions, the answer leads towards "It depends"[/color]

[color=#222222]For me, it was always about combinations of Bass/Head/Cab, and I didn't worry too much about the wattage. [/color]
[color=#222222]Using a Markbass F1 through a Genz Nx2 at the moment and it sounds good with an old active Warwick Streamer[/color]
[font=Calibri][font="Calibri"][size="3"][color="#000000"]Stick in a passive bass though, and it’s a lot harder to get a good sound. Volume - [/color][/size][size="3"][color="#000000"]yes. Tone - not so easy. [/color][/size][/font][/font]
[font=Calibri][font="Calibri"][size="3"][color="#000000"]Replace the head with either my Ashdown Mag400 or Trace AH350 & [/color][/size][size="3"][color="#000000"]250smx or even an old AH150 and I get ‘Authority’![/color][/size][/font][/font]
[font=Calibri][font="Calibri"][size="3"][color="#000000"]Love them all for different reasons. [/color][/size][/font][/font]

[Conan]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1447940564' post='2911652']
Its a bit of a circular augment though, by the same token the difference between 250 and 125 is also "bugger all" ditto for 125 and 62.5 - at some point the "bugger all"s accumulate to something significant otherwise we'd all be a 50w amp. The "bugger all" between 250 and 500 might, depending on circumstances, just be the one that crosses the line between loud enough and not loud enough.
[/quote]

Top post!

[Chienmortbb]

One of the things that has changed over the years is the drivers in loudspeakers. Fane, Goodmans, Celestial, Jensen all made high efficiency speakers and a 50 watt head would create a lot of noise but little bottom end. A 15" Bass Guitar speaker would have a rated efficiency of over 100dB. Most of the drivers we use now are 96dB at best. I know some of the Eminence drivers claim 100dB or more but that is marketing peaks. Today many drivers are around 94dB and that old 50 watt baseman would need to be 200W to get the same perceived old skool volume.

Add marketing watts and you can see why we now need 900 or 1000. The truth is that a true 200W amp will do most gigs a unless its a Bugera. 300W will more than you need. If you use an Acme cab however you may need a lot more

By the way my spell checker replaces Bugera with Bugbear #justsaying

Edited November 20, 2015 by Chienmortbb

[spectoremg]

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1447138749' post='2905106']
These discussions do make me chuckle when they come up. My first amp was a 75W Laney Linebacker 1x15 combo. "As much as you'll ever need for a good few years and will see you right when you are playing in bands." said the guy in the shop (who was a mate of my brothers and in his band so we pretty much trusted his advice. And so it did, struggling manfully against drummers and guitarists.

A few years later I upgraded to a 200w TE 1215 combo when they first came out. Didn't go for the 80 or 150w combos as they had the 7 band graphic and (for no good reason other than wanting it) I wanted the 12 band... More watts than I could ever dream of needing and, sure enough for 20 something years it worked on all sorts stages and settings and I don't think I ever had the volume past 50%.

Back then 200w was more than anyone ever needed in real life and beyond the dreams of headroom. 500w amps were for people who played the local Enormodome and had roadies, and artic lorries... OK I never played death metal but played with a few loud drummers. The guitar player in Threshold even borrowed it off me for a couple of side project gigs where he was playing bass. All agreed, great sounding amp and more than you would ever realistically need.

Reading all these threads about how I couldn't possibly play the Dog n Scratchett without a 500w rig at least does make me smile about the good old days. Sometimes I wonder how come the design and efficiency of bass gear has gone so badly backward over the last 20 or so years that 200w is barely considered a practice amp these days. ;-) Today I have a 500w amp - coz I liked the sounds the look not for a volume upgrade - (TE RIP) and it barely goes over about 30%!

Always set up an amp in the same way. Play as hard as you will ever play in a gig. Input gain up until clipping just starts. Back off a smidgen. Master volume to taste. Sorted.

Funny how times and attitudes change over time. 200w used to be a truly aspirational spec. Mind you, there will be some around here who remember when 17 and 30w were truly aspirational and more than anyone could ever realistically need! #oldfogeyme
[/quote]Damn good post.

[spectoremg]

[quote name='randythoades' timestamp='1447160465' post='2905346']
Is some of it just down to the fact that manufacturers need us to buy new gear and therefore change their emphasis on products?. Thus, 100-200w amps are now classed as practice amps, whereas 800w+ are classed as Pro? No one wants to turn up to an audition with a 'practice amp' so we are conditioned to buy bigger than we need.
Kind of like with cars or motorbikes... no one actually needs a 2.5 litre v8 engine in the UK, a 0.6 litre Smart car or 1 litre Micra will easily go faster than the legal speed limit, and yet people believe that they need a big executive car or a 4x4 in order to lead the life they aspire to. The power of advertising is a wonderful thing!
[/quote]A shocking assumption about manufacturers who have nothing but our interests at heart!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1448056244' post='2912847']
Today many drivers are around 94dB and that old 50 watt baseman would need to be 200W to get the same perceived old skool volume.
[/quote]The main change in drivers has been the development of true bass drivers with long excursion. Most of the old school drivers weren't bass drivers, they were generic musical instrument drivers, ie., guitar. I had a 50w Bassman, and it would give sufficient output to play loud, long before we had good PA, but not with the original Fender 2x12s, nor even with two of them. Before I embarked on building my own cabs the only rig that could take my Bassman undistorted was a pair of 4x12 Kustoms. It's the same reason why the original '69 SVT needed two 8x10 cabs to handle 300 watts cleanly. As for sensitivity, where it counts for us, below 100Hz, it hasn't gone down compared to vintage gear, it's gone up, not only due to the drivers but also the cabs.

[ambient]

I just did yet another gig with my little Phil Jones Double 4 combo. A jazz gig at an art gallery in Wolverhampton. The band was a guitarist, 2 vocalists, keys, drums and 2 sax players. It was perfect, it wasn't even on full. I have it tilted upwards, and it works better if it's against a wall, that's how it was designed, (there was some smart ass on here made fun of that), it has slots cut into the rear, placing it against a wall allows for the sound to reflect off the wall. The Double 4 has 2 4 inch speakers.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='bonzodog' timestamp='1447106819' post='2905015']
I may not have explained my question very well.
What I mean is for example, if I was looking to buy a new bass head and looked at for instance the TC Electronics BH250 against the BH550, then if I look at reviews for both, there are lots of questions as to whether the BH250 is loud enough, and some say possibly not, where as the BH550 will be loud enough but also quiet enough to use at home. So what is the point in risking buying the BH250 if its not loud enough when its the same size, weight etc ? Is it just down to price.
[/quote]Now you have also opened the TC "magic watts" can of worms.



"

[chris_b]

No he hasn't.

The BH heads weren't made at that time. He's talking about how loud these heads are and how will they fit into different playing situations. All reasonable questions.

If you're only playing at home or in a rehearsal room or in a quiet band then a 250 watt amp might be OK, but for any normal gigging band I'd get the 500 watt head.

You can always turn down.

[Twincam]

I'm wondering what the point of amps in the 50 to 100w?

[ambient]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1448241649' post='2913927']
I'm wondering what the point of amps in the 50 to 100w?
[/quote]

Mine's 75 watts, and is the size of a shoe box.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1448230812' post='2913882']
it works better if it's against a wall, that's how it was designed
[/quote]Those slots cover a passive radiator, which functions in the same fashion as a port. You're correct in that close to the wall placement enhances the bass, but it does so by boundary loading.

[Twincam]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1448243731' post='2913928']


Mine's 75 watts, and is the size of a shoe box.
[/quote]

That maybe but 50-100w is a bit useless. I have a new rumble 100 v3 love it but it's too loud for the house really and not loud enough to really gig with unless you play in an acoustic thing, or whatever.
So what really is the point of 50 - 100?
This is just my opinion. Amps 50w and under home, recording, jamming with a guitar player or two maybe, db amp or street use even.
Then after that you really need 200w plus, which will actually work with a drummer for rehearsal small gigs etc.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1448241649' post='2913927']
I'm wondering what the point of amps in the 50 to 100w?
[/quote]
I reckon that's a more reasonable question than the original one. 50W is 6dB less loud than a 200W amp and that is significant. If your speakers produce a fairly typical 96dB per watt then thats a total of 119dB for the 200W amp but only 113dB for a 50W amp. you need about 120dB as a rule of thumb to match a drummer and you won't notice 1dB either way.

We don't always play with drummers of course, rock isn't the only music so you don't always need a huge amp and I have a 1x10 120W combo bought especially for just that use. I could imagine using something like the Roland Cube for the same job and a lot of upright bass players use small amps to just beef up their sound. Never say never.

However a lot of manufacturers offer these small combo's and they are a con, too loud for home practice not enough for most gigs, driven by marketing to young bassists starting out (and parents who are often actually paying) who don't have the knowledge to know that 50W isn't twice as good as 25W.