What is the point of 200w amps

[Telebass]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1447093221' post='2904811']
Personally I think the amount of power lots of people use for pub gigs these day is ludicrous.
Back when I was gigging regularly and going to see lots of live local bands in the late 80's/early 90's nobody used anything over 150 watts for bass & I cannot recall anybody ever being too quiet.
[/quote]
Indeed, until I discovered Markbass, I used an Ashdown EB15-150 combo and a Deep 115 cab to get the full 150W. In a 5-piece rock band, I was never short of power. The Markbass rig rarely ever gets above 50%, no matter the venue, in fact our local 400-seater once dropped me out of the 20kW PA to try and sort some bass related problems he was having. He didn't bother putting it back, it wasn't needed. Plenty of space for the low frequencies to do their thing.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Telebass

[Naetharu]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1448253353' post='2913934']
So what really is the point of 50 - 100?
[/quote]

I guess it depends on your band - consider:

(1) You play in a jazz band alongside mostly acoustic instruments doing open air garden parties
(2) You play in an electronica band where there is no acoustic drum kit and you use the amp as a backline with the main sound all going via a PA
(3) You play in a folk band and simply need enough volume to ensure have some clean headroom for small outside/festival type gigs
(4) You play bass at church and need a nice clean tone but at much lower volumes than a rock gig.

All examples there where 50-100-watt amps could well be just what you are after. From the point of view of a classic 'rock' band with a noisy drummer then perhaps they are not that handy but there are many types of music out there where smaller amps could be just what you need.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Naetharu

[Beer of the Bass]

Discussion of amp requirements on bass forums always seems strangely unrelated to the world I tend to gig in! I have never owned a rig capable of more than 200 watts, but any time I've lacked volume or headroom it was as much down to the speakers as the amp. Out of the gear I've owned, a combo doing around 130 watts into an undersized sealed 1x12" often ran out of steam, and a 200 watt SS head into a ported 1x10" could also be underwhelming in some contexts (but great for others). I started playing with a 50 watt valve head into a sealed 1x15" and that was often dirtier than I wanted it. But a 100 watt valve head or the 200 watt SS head into a reasonably efficient ported 2x12" seemed enough for pretty much everything I've done. Some of those bands have been with drummers who in my opinion are quite loud, though I've never played in the heavier rock or metal genres. Have I just been extremely lucky with my bandmates?

[Naetharu]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1448548250' post='2916360']
Discussion of amp requirements on bass forums always seems strangely unrelated to the world I tend to gig in... a 100 watt valve head or the 200 watt SS head into a reasonably efficient ported 2x12" seemed enough for pretty much everything I've done [/quote]

I think it comes down to the old 'watts is not volume/loudness' thing. My MiBass amp is crazy loud and even running at 8-ohms into a 410 cab has buckets of headroom at rock gig volumes and will offer literally trouser-flapping bass if asked. However, I found that the Orange OB1-500 head was nowhere near as loud when I tried it out last week. Likewise I found the Ampeg porta-flex 300 somewhere between the two. With the Orange I had to push the head to nearly max volume going into a 8-ohm 410 (Ampeg SVT cab) to get it to stand up reasonably next to my band.

I really do think that people are right when they say that wattage is a very poor guide to how loud stuff can go at least from my experience.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Naetharu

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1448548250' post='2916360']
Discussion of amp requirements on bass forums always seems strangely unrelated to the world I tend to gig in! I have never owned a rig capable of more than 200 watts, but any time I've lacked volume or headroom it was as much down to the speakers as the amp. Out of the gear I've owned, a combo doing around 130 watts into an undersized sealed 1x12" often ran out of steam, and a 200 watt SS head into a ported 1x10" could also be underwhelming in some contexts (but great for others). I started playing with a 50 watt valve head into a sealed 1x15" and that was often dirtier than I wanted it. But a 100 watt valve head or the 200 watt SS head into a reasonably efficient ported 2x12" seemed enough for pretty much everything I've done. Some of those bands have been with drummers who in my opinion are quite loud, though I've never played in the heavier rock or metal genres. Have I just been extremely lucky with my bandmates?
[/quote]

Not really, just look at what you are comparing. 130W into a single sealed 12 with 200W into a ported 2x12. Now even if the speakers were identical you are comparing chalk and cheese. I'll explain

A ported cab will give you an extra 3dB of bass, 3dB is like turning from 10 to 11
200W will give you nearly an extra 3dB as you have nearly doubled the power so now you've turned to 12!
Doubling the speakers you've now got mutual coupling, so better efficiency and you've possibly halved the impedance to 4ohms, so you've got between 3 and 6dB extra volume.

Add all this together and you've potentially added 12dB but at least 10dB. That's twice as loud, which you'd need to use 10x the power to achieve with your sealed 12. Good luck with putting 1300W through a single 12.

But, you are right about the strange powers people seem to think they need. 120dB is going to get you to the volume of a drummer. You don't need to be louder than the drums. 200W through a decently efficient but unexceptional speaker will give you 120dB.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1448556735' post='2916454']
Not really, just look at what you are comparing. 130W into a single sealed 12 with 200W into a ported 2x12. Now even if the speakers were identical you are comparing chalk and cheese. I'll explain
...
But, you are right about the strange powers people seem to think they need. 120dB is going to get you to the volume of a drummer. You don't need to be louder than the drums. 200W through a decently efficient but unexceptional speaker will give you 120dB.
[/quote]

Indeed, this sums up very well what was going on with these different rigs. But I've spoken with more than a few bassists who would play through that 130 watt combo and conclude that the solution was that they needed more amp power!

[chris_b]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1448556735' post='2916454'] 200W through a decently efficient but unexceptional speaker will give you 120dB.
[/quote]

Are you suggesting that is 200w out of a 200w amp?

[Twincam]

[quote name='Naetharu' timestamp='1448545462' post='2916312']


I guess it depends on your band - consider:

(1) You play in a jazz band alongside mostly acoustic instruments doing open air garden parties
(2) You play in an electronica band where there is no acoustic drum kit and you use the amp as a backline with the main sound all going via a PA
(3) You play in a folk band and simply need enough volume to ensure have some clean headroom for small outside/festival type gigs
(4) You play bass at church and need a nice clean tone but at much lower volumes than a rock gig.

All examples there where 50-100-watt amps could well be just what you are after. From the point of view of a classic 'rock' band with a noisy drummer then perhaps they are not that handy but there are many types of music out there where smaller amps could be just what you need.
[/quote]

I understand this, only problem I have with that is all those types of music are fairly niche. In compared to the amount of 50-100w amps sold nearly everyone has owned an amp in that power range, but how many actually play in that type of settings you listed. It would be much easier to understand if you had a standard of labelling that stated what the amp was intended for/capable off.

I was thinking that years ago smaller wattage amps were used with bigger cabs even combos were much bigger. Seems now they make things smaller and apparently more efficient but they need much more watts to get them going. And if that's not the case then gigs years ago must of been quiet, which I know that's not true.

[Beer of the Bass]

Something like a 75-watt Peavey TKO (especially the Black Widow version) can actually be a pretty useful pub gig amp that works alongside most drummers, and from the ones I've used they don't seem less loud than some nominally 300 watt 1x15" combos. It's almost impossible to gauge the amount of useful volume from that number alone.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Beer of the Bass

[JTUK]

I recall a PV combo with a BW speaker..the speaker was brilliant but the amp was awful.
Anything over 60% on the dial sounded truly bad.... totally unuable.

Ashdown 115 combo was a different league ( 15 yrs later) and 'worked' in a marqee with a band with horns.
I say 'worked' but wouldn't like to gig it now. But at the time, it was ok.

It's all relative.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1448561604' post='2916508']
Are you suggesting that is 200w out of a 200w amp?
[/quote]

Sorry i don't really understand what you are asking

200W gives you 23dB over 1W. So 200W into a speaker that gives 97dB per watt will give 120dB so long as the speaker will handle 200W, which is roughly the same volume as a drummer. That's all I was saying.

[chris_b]

Phil, I'm not disagreeing with you.

But some people seem to be questioning the use of more powerful amps and observing you don't need more than 200 watts. My view is that if I was using 200 watts I'd have a 500 watt amp just ticking over and not a 200 watt amp running flat out.

[Twincam]

Was thinking of a cool idea, I know at some of the bigger bass bashes people do comparisons etc. Well maybe a wattage comparason might be cool so 100, 200, 300, 400 watt and so on fed through the same cab tested with a db meter or have a number of small combos tested anything from sub 50w to 500w. I know there are lots of variables on this one but it's more for fun and a general view.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1448584776' post='2916716']
Phil, I'm not disagreeing with you.

But some people seem to be questioning the use of more powerful amps and observing you don't need more than 200 watts. My view is that if I was using 200 watts I'd have a 500 watt amp just ticking over and not a 200 watt amp running flat out.
[/quote]

No, I didn't think you were but genuinely didn't get what you were saying

Having a technical background I'm happy to have an amp that covers me for all my needs and I don't personally fret too much about Power ratings, Amplifier watts are so cheap nowadays that no-one really needs to go around with too few watts. Most bass amps seem to cluster around the 300W into 4ohm level and that really is plenty to keep up with the band. The difference between 200W and 300W isn't really significant either so if I was looking for a new amp and it sounded great but was 'only' 200W it just wouldn't put me off. If I played a five string and used lots of bass boost and knew my speakers were inefficient if might be an issue but like you I wonder what situation people are playing in where they 'need' 500W. On a pure technical level the just over 1dB increase in going from 2 to 300W just doesn't make the difference people think.

Equally amps come with a volume control so if it costs little different you might as well go for a powerful amp and turn it down a little. My advice has always been to choose based on sound not the specs.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Phil Starr

[chris_b]

I also don't bother with watts. I just get more than "enough" and use the volume controls to bring the volume down to what I need.

My 500 and 630 watt amps are running at between 30% and 50% on the volume controls. My thoughts were that anyone only needing a 200 watt amp must actually only be using 100 watts. If you want 200 watts and that's the ball park I'm in, you need 400 ish, so the available 500 watt amps are a good fit for a loud, clean, and fat sound.

My Barefaced cabs seem to convert watts into SPL very efficiently and a 300 watt amp might be a good fit with them, but I don't buy amps for particular cabs.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1448619225' post='2916844']
My thoughts were that anyone only needing a 200 watt amp must actually only be using 100 watts.
[/quote]

It's more extreme than that surprisingly. You play a note and it sounds loud than fades until it is lost below whatever else your band is playing. Obviously we also play louder and quieter depending upon what the music demands. You might have a dynamic range of 40dB between your loudest and quietest bit of bass. Your 'normal' sound level might be half of your loudest level and maybe even less. If it is half then this is 10db down or 1/10th of the power so you are probably only using less than 20W (with a 200W amp turned up to the distortion point) most of the time. If you had a bit of compression or a limiter then you'd reduce those peaks and a 100W amp would be plenty.

That's why valve amps have the reputation for being louder, they kind of naturally compress the sound at the peaks and you can run them closer to the overload point without worry about headroom.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Phil Starr

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1448602750' post='2916746'] Was thinking of a cool idea, I know at some of the bigger bass bashes people do comparisons etc. Well maybe a wattage comparason might be cool so 100, 200, 300, 400 watt and so on fed through the same cab tested with a db meter or have a number of small combos tested anything from sub 50w to 500w. I know there are lots of variables on this one but it's more for fun and a general view. [/quote]

I'd be very interested to hear the results! Personally I'm in the camp that says "my 100W valve head is fine," but then my tonal holy grail is [i]The Who: Live at Leeds, [/i]so my honking, overdriven Ashdown probably wouldn't suffice for anyone playing dub reggae. It's made for some very interesting reading, this thread, though I do feel the question of overall tone and EQ has got slightly short shrift.

[Beer of the Bass]

That's something I've often wondered about in the interminable valve vs SS discussions that musicians often enjoy. While I understand that with the right voicing, compression and perhaps a touch of soft clipping, a well designed 100 watt solid state amp [i]could[/i] perform in the way we'd expect a 100 watt valve amp to perform, I'm not certain how often this is actually achieved in practice, especially at the more modest end of the market.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1448631941' post='2916994']
That's something I've often wondered about in the interminable valve vs SS discussions that musicians often enjoy. While I understand that with the right voicing, compression and perhaps a touch of soft clipping, a well designed 100 watt solid state amp [i]could[/i] perform in the way we'd expect a 100 watt valve amp to perform, I'm not certain how often this is actually achieved in practice, especially at the more modest end of the market.
[/quote]I guess it wouldn't make much sense in one way, the cost would be in the design and development so you wouldn't then build a budget amp that way, and since extra watts cost so little in SS designs you might as well have them. With switch mode power supplies there isn't any weight saving by going low powered either.

There's lots of other differences between the two technologies as well, so compression alone won't give you a valve sound. However digital modelling techniques are getting better and cheaper all the time so there will be a time when we won't be able to tell the difference. Listening to some of the plug-ins studios use we are pretty nearly there probably.

I'd say the AER amps do a pretty good 'valve' sound but they aren't cheap.

The other thing that occurs to me is that a really good valve amp and a really good SS amp would have the same characteristic; of all the sound and none of the distortion, so they would sound quite alike. Maybe what people like is the sound of a cheap valve amp. Just a thought.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Phil Starr

[Merton]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1448631320' post='2916984']


I'd be very interested to hear the results! Personally I'm in the camp that says "my 100W valve head is fine," but then my tonal holy grail is [i]The Who: Live at Leeds, [/i]so my honking, overdriven Ashdown probably wouldn't suffice for anyone playing dub reggae. It's made for some very interesting reading, this thread, though I do feel the question of overall tone and EQ has got slightly short shrift.
[/quote]

Damn I miss that amp!

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='Merton' timestamp='1448653515' post='2917262']
Damn I miss that amp!
[/quote]

I hope it gives you some comfort to know it's gone to an owner who loves it very dearly!

[bassmayhem]

I'd rather have a POWERFUL light weight amp that I can use for everything than an amp that cannot deliver. My perfect amp is the Streamliner 900; I can use it in my living room or on a big stage with different speakers. I have a sh*tload of bigger amps too, but mostly I use the 900 for everything...

[Merton]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1448733424' post='2917758']


I hope it gives you some comfort to know it's gone to an owner who loves it very dearly!
[/quote]

Damn straight! Hopefully I'll get to come and see you guys play next year and hear it again too

[grandad]

Over several years for small to medium gigs I've used a Peavey Max 160 SS head into an Ampeg B115E playing mostly WMC's. Music is 60's/70's pop. At 8 Ohms I've got about 120W maximum. With both the gain and master usually about 12 o'clock I'm only using double figures for wattage. On a few occasions I had to DI out to the PA, usually outdoors.

I think it's the combination of the two, the amp with a particular speaker/cabinet that's going to be the setup that brings a smile to your face, that gives you the tones and the power you want. I found my pair.

What I tend to do is keep changing my home practice amp. I'm using a Roland CB30 at the moment which is a great little amp but I keep wondering if a small Fender Rumble or a TC 208 might be fun. Still, changing your home practice amp is cheaper than changing your gig-rig.

Edited November 29, 2015 by grandad

[spike]

Until it broke down last month I was using a 500W Little Mark III to gig with. Bought a TC Electronic BH250 to keep me going and I've not noticed any big difference in ability between them to give me the volume I want.