What is the point of 200w amps

[vailbass]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1447096337' post='2904854']
By 4dB to be precise, which isn't worth the bother. As equally valid a question is what is the point of 500w amps? If I manufactured amps I'd make the size differential between models at four times the power rating, say 50w, 200w, 800w.
[/quote]
But 3dB is DOUBLE the acoustic energy, right Bill? Sounds like a lot, eh?

[grandad]

[quote name='spike' timestamp='1448799916' post='2918192']
Until it broke down last month I was using a 500W Little Mark III to gig with. Bought a TC Electronic BH250 to keep me going and I've not noticed any big difference in ability between them to give me the volume I want.
[/quote]

Recently settled on a TC BG250 208 as my home practice amp. Out of curiosity I plugged my 115 into the LS ext and was surprised at the increase in volume. It was probably loud enough to do a medium size gig.

[4StringPete]

I regularly use a Trace RAH 150 into one or two 15s and never been short of horsepower. Trace watts are a different ball game I've always found. Recent (full band) jams, I used my old CTM15 with a Mark Bass 2 x 10, and it did the damage. The right speakers and a decent amp is better than an amp with a claimed 500 watt power rating.

[chriswareham]

Missed this thread first time around. One thing I've been told, so take that as anecdotal until someone better qualified confirms it, is that modern class D stuff is rated at peak output while old school SS stuff is rated at continuous output. In other words, a typical "500W" class D will soon blowup if pushed hard, while my "125W" Acoustic 140 isn't struggling to match the same output level at roughly 25% on the master control. If so, it would explain several Orange Bass Terrors I've witnessed breaking down at gigs where my other head (100W valve) has no problems.

Edited January 30, 2016 by chriswareham

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='4StringPete' timestamp='1454106984' post='2966632']
I regularly use a Trace RAH 150 into one or two 15s and never been short of horsepower. Trace watts are a different ball game I've always found. Recent (full band) jams, I used my old CTM15 with a Mark Bass 2 x 10, and it did the damage. The right speakers and a decent amp is better than an amp with a claimed 500 watt power rating.
[/quote]

You've either got a quieter band than me, or a much more sensitive cab!

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1454172213' post='2967239']
Missed this thread first time around. One thing I've been told, so take that as anecdotal until someone better qualified confirms it, is that modern class D stuff is rated at peak output while old school SS stuff is rated at continuous output. In other words, a typical "500W" class D will soon blowup if pushed hard, while my "125W" Acoustic 140 isn't struggling to match the same output level at roughly 25% on the master control. If so, it would explain several Orange Bass Terrors I've witnessed breaking down at gigs where my other head (100W valve) has no problems.
[/quote]

Its not quite right. Class D amps are often rate at a "burst" rms power, that's a different animal to the "peak" rating of class A/B amp.

A peak power rating is just a fixed multiplier of the rms rating i.e. its just another way of describing the same basic output capability because you measuring a test waveform at the top rather than averaging it over the whole waveform.

A burst rating on the other hand represents the ability of an amp to temporarily increase its actual rms power capability for a short time, say during the initial attack of a note.

So a 300w rms amp with a peak rating of say 450w can deliver never deliver more than 300w rms.
An amp with a 300w rms continuous and 450w burst power can deliver [b]450w rms[/b] for short periods which will probably give a perceptible clean volume increase vs a 300w amp with no burst capability.

Of course you could also take the burst power and measure the peak of that burst and arrive a stupidly inflated power ratings (not mentioning any names Behringer/Bugera).

So what is the usable real world loudness of a burst rated amp ? - probably less than its pure burst rating, but probably more than its continuous rms rating. Taking my RH450 as as example its practical usable volume sound like a fair bit more than its 225w continuous rating but probably not quite a match for an amp with a 450w continuous rating.

Edited January 31, 2016 by bassman7755

[grandad]

[quote name='grandad' timestamp='1450683161' post='2934746']
Recently settled on a TC BG250 208 as my home practice amp. Out of curiosity I plugged my 115 into the LS ext and was surprised at the increase in volume. It was probably loud enough to do a medium size gig.
[/quote]

But went back to my Roland CB30 because I liked the tone better.

[probablypike]

I'm guessing I'm massively overlooking a few things here, but could it be argued that there's no point in amps over 500w? If you need volume/clarity that a 500w can't deliver, then surely the venue for that kind of gig will have a decent PA, so DI is just needed. (Then either decent monitors would be available or your 500w would suffice for on stage.)

Obviously peace of mind and outdoor events are two reasons why I'm wrong, but on 9/10 occasions you'd be fine, right?

[Twincam]

[quote name='4StringPete' timestamp='1454106984' post='2966632']
I regularly use a Trace RAH 150 into one or two 15s and never been short of horsepower. Trace watts are a different ball game I've always found. Recent (full band) jams, I used my old CTM15 with a Mark Bass 2 x 10, and it did the damage. The right speakers and a decent amp is better than an amp with a claimed 500 watt power rating.
[/quote]

Trace watts do seem conservative also there voicing probably helps too. I have a 200w combo 300w with another cab and it's easily the loudest solid state 200w I've heard.

I'm surprised a ctm 15 worked for a full band jam although the mb 2x10 cabs seem really good.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='probablypike' timestamp='1454284599' post='2968313']
I'm guessing I'm massively overlooking a few things here, but could it be argued that there's no point in amps over 500w? If you need volume/clarity that a 500w can't deliver, then surely the venue for that kind of gig will have a decent PA, so DI is just needed. (Then either decent monitors would be available or your 500w would suffice for on stage.)

Obviously peace of mind and outdoor events are two reasons why I'm wrong, but on 9/10 occasions you'd be fine, right?
[/quote]

500w is probably enough for the vast majority of situations, and probably why there seems to be such a massive choice of amps in this power range. I'd still probably want more than this if I were using a single small high powered speaker e.g. a single 12 or something though where efficiency might be a bit of an issue.

[Norris]

My Rumble 500 combo is loud enough... and quiet enough.

The only times I've used less than about 400W the amp has struggled for head room. However that's with older amps/cabs in the dim and distant past. New stuff is far more efficient and fewer watts could well be enough these days, but I am happy that my combo is plenty loud enough for any situation I'm likely to face, or indeed can go quiet enough while still holding a good tone.

[4StringPete]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1454297567' post='2968352']
Trace watts do seem conservative also there voicing probably helps too. I have a 200w combo 300w with another cab and it's easily the loudest solid state 200w I've heard.

I'm surprised a ctm 15 worked for a full band jam although the mb 2x10 cabs seem really good.
[/quote]

It opened a lot of eyes that weekend. It was driving hard, but not overly dirty out front. I've used it in full band rehearsals with two 1x15s, and it can do it. I'm not looking for a perfectly clean sound anyway. Looking forward to trying the CTM 30 with the band, it has the di as well, so will be much better for the job

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1454172213' post='2967239']
Missed this thread first time around. One thing I've been told, so take that as anecdotal until someone better qualified confirms it, is that modern class D stuff is rated at peak output while old school SS stuff is rated at continuous output. In other words, a typical "500W" class D will soon blowup if pushed hard, while my "125W" Acoustic 140 isn't struggling to match the same output level at roughly 25% on the master control. If so, it would explain several Orange Bass Terrors I've witnessed breaking down at gigs where my other head (100W valve) has no problems.
[/quote]It's no wonder the average musician get's confused is it? The problem is that even when talking about something like peak power you might be talking about two different things. An engineer will be able to read beyond this but without a heap of technical knowledge it is so hard to sort out the advertising nonsense from the truth. At the risk of making it even more confusing I'll have a go.

Sound isn't noise at a steady continuous level. At it's purest level it is made of sine waves. As the vibrating string moves from the point where it is plucked back to it's resting position speeds past the resting position and then slowing until it reaches it's furthest point and then continuing back and to it traces out a sine wave. This then repeats many times a second with the string gradually slowing down and moving less until it is plucked again. So is the peak the initial plucking position, the whole of the initial first vibration or the biggest sound it could possibly make? The amplifier and speakers have to track that string vibration so it becomes important to know which 'peak' you mean.

The first peak of the sine wave is where the amplifier is producing most volts and the speaker has moved furthest out (or in). It makes little sense to quote this power though, this point only occurs for an infinitesimal moment. All sine waves are the same shape so if you know the peak you know what the rest of the sine wave is like. If you want to know how much power the amplifier makes then you need to know how much work it can do over the whole cycle. The average voltage if you like. That's where the rms bit comes in, rms is simply the mathematical trick we use to calculate the power from the sine wave. So the peak power is a nonsense because without the sine wave there is no sound!

Now this is where the second sort of peak comes in. Sine waves are sound but they aren't music. Even that first note on the bass decays away until another note is sounded, and music has lot's of notes, and rests and gaps. So if your amp is peaking at 100W (rms of course) whilst you are playing by the time you tot up all the gaps,rests and decaying notes your average power might only be 5W or even less. On top of this you won't play all your notes equally loud, you might only play that 100W note four times in a night, your next loudest note might be a 50W note or you might have a 200W note you only play once in an evening, depends upon what music you play. In this case your loudest sound will only last a fraction of a second a few times an hour. The peak you are talking about might be the peak in the music, nothing to do with voltages. So 'burst power' might be very useful. If your TC/Markbass/Aguilar etc can give you 200W all evening and 400W bursts for the half a second when you need it then do you need to know or care how continuously that power is available?

None of this is new either, old style solid state amps couldn't produce continuous power all evening and neither could valve amps. the main limitation was usually the power supplies. The electrical power is stored in big capacitors which are charged up by a transformer. Both large and expensive components and in the case of the transformer extremely heavy. Why put a 400W capable transformer in an amp which is only going to need to do that for 1/10th of a second every hour? the result is that the price of the amp will increase by 50% and the purchaser won't be able to lift it out of the van. In a band situation you probably won't hear a difference anyway.

Now that explains why heavy old amps sometimes seem louder than lighter amps with the same wattage rating even if they are all rms watts. Bigger transformers, but there are other complications too, I'll stop there though this is already long enough.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Phil Starr

[taunton-hobbit]

....Which brings me on to Horn wattage....a long time back I bought two Vitavox 3cell horns (direct from the factory) and a couple of S2 pressure drivers (you can still buy them, currently around 3k a driver) - the man told me that the drivers would take about 45watts, which worried me, because I was using 200 Ormats....he grinned and assured me that through the Vitavox crossovers, the horns would last forever....twenty years later, I sold them on.............



Before I forget - the 'approved' factory muting was a pair of rolled-up socks placed in the unwanted cell aperture......I only ever had the centre cells unmuted..........

Edited February 1, 2016 by taunton-hobbit

[DeezerButler]

I have had a multitude of amps over the years. But, currently I use a Hartke Kilo (1000watt) w/twin AK410 cabs for gigs.
At rehearsal, I'm on the other end of the spectrum as I use a 1972 Traynor YBA-1 w/2 15" cabs.... this amp is very, very loud. All tubes..... but, get this.... it's only 45 watts!

My point being... Displacement is what really gives you volume. I used to have a 300watt Peavey hooked to a 18" Sunn cab that would shake the pictures off the wall at a bar I used to play frequently.

[ambient]

I'm still loving my shoebox sized, 75 watt, 2 x 4" PJB Double four combo.

Horses for courses, as they say .

It's perfect for my jazz gigs.

[grandad]

Q. What is the point of 200W amps?

Maybe headroom.

Edited February 3, 2016 by grandad

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1454348659' post='2968849']
It's no wonder the average musician get's confused is it? ...
[/quote]

Don't get confused. Just ask four questions:

1 Do I like the sound?

2 Is it loud enough?

3 Do I like how it looks?

4 Can I afford it?

Four yeses and, bingo, you don't need to know how many watts or anything.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1454531529' post='2970634']


Don't get confused. Just ask four questions:

1 Do I like the sound?

2 Is it loud enough?

3 Do I like how it looks?

4 Can I afford it?

Four yeses and, bingo, you don't need to know how many watts or anything.
[/quote]
+1
Watts don't determine how loud an amp can go.
They rate hair driers in watts too & theyre crap for playing bass through (thought they can do the required "trouser flapping" bit).

[bonzodog]

Yes but point 2 is the hard bit.
When I was looking for an amp for pubs gigs in a rock band I looked at a lot of 200 amps and read conflicting reviews where some said they were loud enough and others not. Even sales people in various music shops had opposing views and trying it in a shop does not give you any basis of how it would sound at a gig.
I ended up buying a 500 amp to cover all bases hence my original post

[mcnach]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1454531529' post='2970634']
Don't get confused. Just ask four questions:

1 Do I like the sound?

2 Is it loud enough?

3 Do I like how it looks?

4 Can I afford it?

Four yeses and, bingo, you don't need to know how many watts or anything.
[/quote]

+1

point 4 is a bitch, 'though, sometimes

[mcnach]

[quote name='bonzodog' timestamp='1454578727' post='2970898']
Yes but point 2 is the hard bit.
When I was looking for an amp for pubs gigs in a rock band I looked at a lot of 200 amps and read conflicting reviews where some said they were loud enough and others not. Even sales people in various music shops had opposing views and trying it in a shop does not give you any basis of how it would sound at a gig.
I ended up buying a 500 amp to cover all bases hence my original post
[/quote]

True, you never know until you try... but it's amazing how much more attention we generally give to amps vs speakers (I'm guilty too: I once let my LM3 go to get a LMT800, because I thought the 500W to 800W would give me extra oomph... and I found that it gave me some, but not really significantly more)...

I think in the past it was a given that bass meant heavy&big speakers, and people could manage with lower rated amps. But as speakers improved, we ended up having a substantial offer of lightweight compact speakers and a lot of us use cabs that nobody would have considered back in the 70s/80s (just from looking at them, I mean, being so tiny)... The fact that we can get a big performance out of compact cabs sometimes makes people stick to a very compact solution and focus on amp power in order to get more volume, because the speakers can take it. However even if speakers can take the power it doesn't mean they're going to get a lot louder past a certain point, while adding another speaker, however, will increase the volume significantly.

I'm in a funny place right now, regarding cabs... as I'm starting to use some very small and light 12" cabs which are 'only' rated to 250W and don't put out a lot of sound, individually. A couple of them together sound pretty good and can be pretty loud (not earth-shakingly loud, but loud nonetheless). Two of those are still very small. So small, that I got another pair. Now four of those are VERY loud. Whether I use a 300W or a 500-600W amp configuration didn't seem to make a huge difference... but adding speakers was like day and night.

We should look at speakers a bit more than we do, I feel.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='bonzodog' timestamp='1454578727' post='2970898']
Yes but point 2 is the hard bit.
When I was looking for an amp for pubs gigs in a rock band I looked at a lot of 200 amps and read conflicting reviews where some said they were loud enough and others not. Even sales people in various music shops had opposing views and trying it in a shop does not give you any basis of how it would sound at a gig.
I ended up buying a 500 amp to cover all bases hence my original post
[/quote]
& you'll find it can vary greatly from amp to amp. It depends on many factors with watts only being one of those factors & it's the cab which makes the biggest difference.
The question is like saying "What's the point of 200bhp engines". It depends on many other factors.

Edited February 4, 2016 by xgsjx

[Deedee]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1454570362' post='2970843']

+1
Watts don't determine how loud an amp can go.
They rate hair driers in watts too & theyre crap for playing bass through (thought they can do the required "trouser flapping" bit).
[/quote]

😂 Haha

[Lozz196]

I`ve recently bought a TC Electronic BH250 - ok, so it`s 50 watts above the rating in question, but still fairly low-powered in comparison to many of the other small Class D amps out there. Bought purely as a backup. However this eve we played a gig where I was providing the bass rig, and as we`re just embarking on a "gig every weekend tour" for our new album, I let the other bands use the BH250, keeping my regular Tonehammer for just me.

And the verdict - nice strong, loud little amp. The bands were going through FOH, but the main band set the volume at 10 o`clock, with all eq at noon, and the soundman asked the bassist to turn the master volume down. Plenty of power for on-stage, and to be honest enough for a regular venue as well.

So what`s the point of 200 watt amps - well they`re loud enough for regular venues, and if we`re talking the smaller Class D amps, portable enough to take in a bag on public transport of there`s a cab provided.

I should also add that the bands this eve were punk bands, so not exactly quiet, and the bassist in the headlining band, The Ramonas, well she hits quite hard and at no point did the amp sound like it was struggling.