Sick as a parrot!

[budget bassist]

in response to the topic starter:
Holy sh*t! (excuse my french)

[thebeat]

I work in retail and the amount of time that the police have picked up shoplifters, who've been caught on camera but have evaded capture by staff, outside Cash Converters is enough to prove to me that they do handle a lot of stolen goods...obviously they buy this gear in good faith

Saying all this, the lucky guy who got the bargain is under no obligation to care whether it's been nicked or not...besides, the original owner has probably had his insurance pay out anyway.

[Kev]

+1

[Metal-Mariachi]

Here in the States or at least in some of them, dealers have to wait 30 days before selling an instrument, jewelry etc. That way police can check if stolen goods were pawned or sold.

If the thief hangs on to the stuff for a couple of months though it does slip through the cracks.

MM

[Waldo]

Just been into my local Cash Converter shops today and every peice of musical gear is labeled with the brand name, model name/number and price so they obviously do their homework before something goes on the shelf. God knows how they managed to let a Fodera slip through, a simple googling of 'empire bass' comes up with a Fodera Empire bass as the first picture

Edited September 16, 2008 by Waldo

[Kiwi]

Its my understanding that noone can sell title to goods that they do not legally own. So if you purchase something from CC, and its later discovered to be stolen, I guess the person possessing the goods at the time of recovery is the one that loses out unless by agreement with the insurance company (witness the deal struck over Mark Kings stolen Empathy Matrix 001).

[Hit&Run]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='285267' date='Sep 16 2008, 05:51 PM']witness the deal struck over Mark Kings stolen Empathy Matrix 001[/quote]
What deal's that?

[molan]

I picked up a nice Spector Fretless for under £100 at one in North London a few years back. They had a Tom Anderson Guitarworks Drop Top Strat up for sale at about £400 - £500. At the time these were retailing for over £2K, unfortunately I din;t have enough available to cash to buy it but sent a friend to have a look less than an hour later & it had been snapped up

[doctor_of_the_bass]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='285267' date='Sep 16 2008, 05:51 PM']Its my understanding that noone can sell title to goods that they do not legally own. So if you purchase something from CC, and its later discovered to be stolen, I guess the person possessing the goods at the time of recovery is the one that loses out unless by agreement with the insurance company (witness the deal struck over Mark Kings stolen Empathy Matrix 001).[/quote]

I actually owned that bass after it was recovered by the relevant authorities and was placed up for sale in Electromusic in Doncaster. I'm not fully aware of the deal but was told by the shop that MK had been made aware of the situation and was happy for the bass to be sold. Intrigued to know more Steve...

[Waldo]

[quote name='doctor_of_the_bass' post='285504' date='Sep 17 2008, 12:49 AM']I actually owned that bass after it was recovered by the relevant authorities and was placed up for sale in Electromusic in Doncaster. I'm not fully aware of the deal but was told by the shop that MK had been made aware of the situation and was happy for the bass to be sold. Intrigued to know more Steve...[/quote]

Sounds intriguing...

[Prosebass]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='285267' date='Sep 16 2008, 05:51 PM']Its my understanding that noone can sell title to goods that they do not legally own. So if you purchase something from CC, and its later discovered to be stolen, I guess the person possessing the goods at the time of recovery is the one that loses out unless by agreement with the insurance company (witness the deal struck over Mark Kings stolen Empathy Matrix 001).[/quote]

This is very true , but if the theft was a while ago the original owner has probably been paid out by the insurers and if he had no insurance what was he doing buying a Fodera without it ?

Best I have managed was a Mint White Mexican Precision for £70.00 at my local pawn shop.
We have just got a new pawn shop in town ......I'm off there now.....bye.....

[tauzero]

[quote name='Prosebass' post='285906' date='Sep 17 2008, 02:28 PM']This is very true , but if the theft was a while ago the original owner has probably been paid out by the insurers and if he had no insurance what was he doing buying a Fodera without it ?[/quote]
If something is stolen and the insurance pays for it, then the item becomes the property of the insurance company so they have first dibs on it if it ever gets recovered.

[Sibob]

Hmmm, I should check my cash converters more often!

Si

[thisnameistaken]

I remember hearing about Mark King's Status Matrix getting stolen back when it happened (and laughing about how anybody was ever going to shift it). I'd love to hear what the conclusion was plz.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='285267' date='Sep 16 2008, 05:51 PM']Its my understanding that noone can sell title to goods that they do not legally own. So if you purchase something from CC, and its later discovered to be stolen, I guess the person possessing the goods at the time of recovery is the one that loses out unless by agreement with the insurance company (witness the deal struck over Mark Kings stolen Empathy Matrix 001).[/quote]

Surely the person who bought the bass would be able to make a claim on Crack Converters? As in Crack Converters took their money in return for an instrument that CC did not have a legal right to sell.

There's a local shop round here that is sort of an imitation Crack Converters. They had a Stagg BC300 for £80. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I negotiated with them and hence was considering buying in the shop. But after playing the bass, I did actually like it, and decided to buy it. But after working out that the new price was £99 online, clearly I wasn't going to pay £80 for a second hand one. So I went back and asked them if there was any flexibility on the price. They said they'd speak to the manager. They came back with the manager, and he said that they'd checked on ebay, and the new price for the bass was £159, and hence they weren't going to negotiate on the price. I told them this was ridiculous, but they insisted that they'd checked on ebay, and that was the price.

I did check on ebay that day, and there was a BC300 on there for £159. But that was the absolute highest price for the instrument. And even the same seller was selling other colours (including the violet that the local shop was selling) for much less. That tells me all I need to know about that shop's pricing policy.

The bass is still there BTW, about a month later. As are other instruments that have been there for absolute yonks.

Returning to the topic of the thread, I wonder if any goods seized by bailiffs end up being offloaded to CC. Not saying that this has happened in this case, but that just [b]might[/b] be a way in which a misidentified bass makes its way into the shop. Though, if I was in the OP's shoes, I would most definitely see if there is a "rightful owner" to return the bass to.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='doctor_of_the_bass' post='285504' date='Sep 17 2008, 12:49 AM']I actually owned that bass after it was recovered by the relevant authorities and was placed up for sale in Electromusic in Doncaster. I'm not fully aware of the deal but was told by the shop that MK had been made aware of the situation and was happy for the bass to be sold. Intrigued to know more Steve...[/quote]
Sorry Nick, "deal" probably alluded to more than was actually the case. As recipient of the instrument I suspect you'd probably know more about the circumstances than I. All I know is that Mark was happy for the bass to be sold because he'd already recieved an insurance payout. However I understand that if stolen property is recovered after an insurance payout then technically the insurance company owns the recovered goods? I don't know where things were left off re: the insurance company on that one.

[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='287062' date='Sep 19 2008, 09:33 AM']Surely the person who bought the bass would be able to make a claim on Crack Converters? As in Crack Converters took their money in return for an instrument that CC did not have a legal right to sell.[/quote]
Yes, but unless one party can prove in court that the seller already knew the goods were stolen when they recieved them, I suspect the case would be a civil one rather than criminal. I'm not a lawyer/policeman though. If I was CC I'd be getting people to sign undertakings that the goods are not stolen and be taking sufficient information from them that they can be quickly located by the police if the goods do turn out to be stolen.

[Waldo]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='287073' date='Sep 19 2008, 09:44 AM']If I was CC I'd be getting people to sign undertakings that the goods are not stolen and be taking sufficient information from them that they can be quickly located by the police if the goods do turn out to be stolen.[/quote]

Yes that would certainly be the most logical thing to do wouldn't it? I think the fact of the matter is, they'd rather not know if the goods are stolen or not

[quote]Hmmm, I should check my cash converters more often![/quote]

Don't get your hopes up!

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='287073' date='Sep 19 2008, 09:44 AM']Yes, but unless one party can prove in court that the seller already knew the goods were stolen when they recieved them, I suspect the case would be a civil one rather than criminal. I'm not a lawyer/policeman though. If I was CC I'd be getting people to sign undertakings that the goods are not stolen and be taking sufficient information from them that they can be quickly located by the police if the goods do turn out to be stolen.[/quote]

Yes, but small claims court should find in the buyer's favour. (I would think. I'm no lawyer either). As there is clear evidence of the sale (receipt from CC), and clear evidence from the police that the bass was stolen.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Waldo' post='287141' date='Sep 19 2008, 10:50 AM']I think the fact of the matter is, they'd rather not know if the goods are stolen or not [/quote]

That's my personal feeling.

[Stan_da_man]

Definately stolen. No way would they give the bass away for that much. The guitarist in my band used to work at a Cash Convertery type place and some chavs came in with a 1972 (or 1973 - can't remember) Fender Precision bass! The chavs not realising how much the bass was sold it to my guitarist for £50! My guitarist bought the bass from the shop, went to a music shop, sold it for a much higher price and then bought new guitar gear!

[ironside1966]

As a Yorkshire man I think is great to get a bargain in fact I insist of it, I cannot help but think of the people who lost the guitars, they might have sentimental value or irreplaceable instruments or my even might not have been insured.
I think in the case of this post it is different circumstances and everything was done in good faith, maybe not C Converters.


For those who knowingly get a bargain of a thief, remember it might be your gear next, or you grandmas jewelry.

So I say Report the B++++++s.


I know it will not do much good but it might be the time they go to jail.

[Hamster]

To handle stolen goods, Cash Converters or any subsequent owner must know or believe the goods to be stolen when they receive them, and "dishonestly" undertake their realisation or retention.

The question of "dishonesty" has to pass a 2 part test - Firstly, according to the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people, was what was done dishonest?

Secondly, if it was dishonest by those standards, did the receiver realise that reasonable and honest people would regard its conduct as dishonest?

- If it fails either test, it's not dishonest.

Did Cash Converters go to reasonable lengths to ascertain ownership rights? How many checks or questions are reasonable? Does the person who buys from CC have a reasonable expectation that CC has checked the goods are not stolen and they have legal title to them?

If the original owner has received a payout from the insurance company for the goods, the title of the goods pass to the insurance company.

If the stolen item comes back into the possession of the original owner (paid out or not) or any other person or body who has claim of title on the property then the property ceases to become "stolen goods."

Anyone buying or selling any property (stolen or not) without the permission of the original legal owner is liable to the original owner for the tort of ‘conversion’, which is a tort of strict liability, i.e. the knowledge or belief of the purchaser is irrelevant. Purchasers, including those who purchase in good faith from a legitimate dealer, may be sued for damages by the original owner, even if they have sold the property to someone else. The County Court may also issue an order requiring disclosure of records to trace the present owner of the property.

I presume that the insurance company could claim against CC and the person they sold the goods to, as they would be acting as agents on behalf of the original owner, with whom they have a legal contract.

So, there are both criminal and civil aspects that need to be clarified regarding timescales / actions taken / actions not taken / enquiries made/ not made etc etc

Any clearer?

[Prosebass]

Just sell it to an MP but make sure they are claiming it on "expenses" that way the deal is fireproof and no court in the land will question it.