Buying a 5-string bass - MTD, Wyn, Ken Smith, Roscoe, Mattisson... HELP!!!

[heady]

Hi everybody!

So, I'm in the market for a 5-string. My budget is somewhere around £4500 (give or take) and I live in the UK - making import an option, but not ideal.

I've looked at several options for luthiers in England and Scotland - ACG, Shuker, Overwater for example - but nothing has inspired me, certainly not enough to part with that kind of money.

One thing I'm sure of is what I want out of the bass. My style and the current project I'm working on is very versatile, sonically, and can involve anything from thumby atmospheric stuff to groove-based funk, jazz and progressive. I generally aim for a great fingerstyle tone - think neo-gospel, R&B, jazz tones. I don't do any slapping. I've listed below some examples of bass tones that I absolutely LOVE.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2N_zRXxghI"]Henrik Linder[/url]
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GESlrRSPIjA"]Timon J. Timothy[/url]
[url="https://youtu.be/HgL7WCE-eZo?t=2m46s"]Skuli Sverisson (Bass solo at 2:46)[/url]

It's really about that slightly aggressive energy in the low-mid / mid range but equally having a natural sounding top end is important. A tight low-B string is [u]essential[/u] - so 35" scale is probably the way to go? (correct me if I'm wrong!)

The bass has to be responsive! I don't want something that sounds like I'm thumbing all the time, with no colour in the upper frequencies, but in the same way, do not want something that is overly bright and buzzy. I hope that makes sense! It's got to be natural and open and punchy when it needs to be!

I'm happy to have a guitar custom built if it my best possible chance of fitting those specifications. I would love to hear peoples suggestions, experiences and questions. If you can point me in the right direction of a fantastic luthier who will meet those requirements, you are a star!

Peace !

J

Edited November 20, 2015 by heady

[ambient]

Have you played a 5 string before ?

That's an awful lot to spend if you haven't.

[heady]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1447979622' post='2912088']
Have you played a 5 string before ?
[/quote]

Played but not owned!

[ambient]

Ken Smith.

[Paulhauser]

US made neck through Spectors have one of the best B strings in the business and they are very strong in that mid-range just like how you have described. While Spector has been associated more with rock/metal players it is used in many other genres as well, check Doug Wimbish for example.

Also certain MTD models with the right wood combination could also be a solution, the ones with less sizzle on the top

What I'd do is first to narrow down the options. Then use this budget to buy used basses from the makers that seem to be ideal. The goal would be to try them by using them for a while and gaining experience. I'd buy wisely so I could pass the basses with relatively low cost and buy others again. And then maybe after a period of one year and 6-8 second hand basses later I would probably be able to get exactly what I want and need.

You are about to spend a sizeable budget on one bass and if you choose well you can have a bass with no compromises that is will serve you for long.

[Happy Jack]

Jumping into anything new at the very top end is asking for trouble. It's your dosh and you'll do what you want, but I think you'll get better results by taking easier steps.

For well under half your budget you could have your pick of pre-owned fivers, and spend a month or two seeing whether or not you actually like them.

Getting back to your original question, where are you coming from in terms of go-to basses? Are you a Precision player or a Warwick sort of guy? Does 19mm string spacing matter to you? Are you hung up on weight issues? Do you want an active bass with more controls than Concorde or do you do everything at the amp? Etc. Etc. Etc.

[CamdenRob]

Pretty much as Jack says above...

You could have anything on the market for your budget, but do you know what you want? Depending on your location, i'd get yourself along to somewhere like Bass Direct or The Gallery... or even better a BC Bassbash and just try everything you can

It'd be painful to spend that much on a custom build only to find out it's not for you then lose half the money moving it on.

[heady]

Thank you so much for your patient responses!

I probably should have spoken a little bit about what I'm currently using. I've always been a stock Fender kind of guy... used to own a P-bass, then a Jazz, and now I use a Jaguar mainly. For what it cost me a few years ago it's surprisingly versatile - I don't use the on board pre-amp much, if at all these days as I have a Lehle Basswitch with a 4-band parametric EQ, and together with the series / parallel switches on the guitar I can access lots of different 'nice' tones. Enough to get me by I suppose, but I've just outgrown it in the last year.

I'm using flats at the moment as opposed to roundwounds, which are fantastic for a lot of the stuff I play but do compromise in areas where I need greater amounts of sustain and/or attack. The problems I have with the Jag are the following: Only 20 frets on the neck, its 30" scale which means the strings are sort of close to being flabby (I'd say more 'non responsive'), it's only got 4 strings, and finally it just generally sounds a bit flat and dead, unless I'm playing the hell out of it.

Let me also clarify some of the points I made in the OP. I am mortified at having to spend anything close to £4/5000, I would of course prefer to spend less and am well aware that I could get something decent for half that budget, BUT I have perhaps wrongly come at it from the perspective of this being a long-term investment, and with a lot of research and testing (yes I agree!) I can't imagine choosing a guitar that I later regret massively. But maybe I'm just being naive. A trip to Bass Direct is definitely in order! That was always the plan - if I have the opportunity to play a Ken Smith for example before parting with several thousand pounds, then I'm going to jump at it, of course. But with other basses that could potentially come into the top end of my budget - Mattisson, Fodera for example - I just don't have that opportunity for a play before you pay.

[Happy Jack]

Whereabouts in the country are you?

[CamdenRob]

Yes a trip to try some stuff out is definitly a good idea.

The issue with asking this question on BC is that you will get loads of opinions on what people think y[i]ou[/i] should buy based on what [i]they[/i] think you need... in reality only you know what sort of bass suits your tone, aesthetic and playability goals.

For example I play Wal basses and they can provide everything I would ever need from a bass but everyone is different and they may not work for you at all... it's really a case of finding out what you want.

You could perhaps try several basses you mention from the BC marketplace, one at a time, buy one try it out, move it on... would take a year or so but you'd have a much better idea of what you were after following the experience. This is pretty much what I did before arriving at Wal.

[heady]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1448016445' post='2912261']
Whereabouts in the country are you?
[/quote]

I live and work in London.

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1448017442' post='2912277']

You could perhaps try several basses you mention from the BC marketplace, one at a time, buy one try it out, move it on... would take a year or so but you'd have a much better idea of what you were after following the experience. This is pretty much what I did before arriving at Wal.
[/quote]

It's definitely the most sensible approach! A visit to Bass Direct is probably a good place to start and at least get some idea of what I [i]don't[/i] want. It's hard to predict how any of those basses will feel once they're under my fingers.

What other retailers would you suggest, in line with BD? Does anywhere in the UK stock Fodera? Just so I know what £7000 feels like!

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='heady' timestamp='1448018322' post='2912297']
What other retailers would you suggest, in line with BD? Does anywhere in the UK stock Fodera? Just so I know what £7000 feels like!
[/quote]

As you're in London try The Gallery in Camden... a number of high end models in stock and the excellent Sei basses are made on site, so if you end up liking those you could chat to Martin about having one built.

[Marvin]

[quote name='heady' timestamp='1448018322' post='2912297']
What other retailers would you suggest, in line with BD? Does anywhere in the UK stock Fodera? Just so I know what £7000 feels like!
[/quote]

I don't know about the UK but Thomann, I think, stock some Fodera's. You could take advantage of distance selling regulations.

[BigRedX]

With that kind of money to potentially spend the world is pretty much your oyster.

What you need to do is go and play as many 5-string basses as you can at every single price point until you have truly worked out what it is that you like and don't like. So start by arranging trips to Bass Direct, Bass Gear and The Gallery and get your hands on some basses. Plus while you are at The Gallery have a chat with Martin Petersen of Sei Bass and see what he can do for you.

BTW construction is far more important than scale length when it comes to getting a decent low B string. My 34" Sei Bass has the best low B of any bass I've ever played.

[heady]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1448021839' post='2912347']
BTW construction is far more important than scale length when it comes to getting a decent low B string. My 34" Sei Bass has the best low B of any bass I've ever played.
[/quote]

Thanks for your advice. You're right and that's exactly what I'm going to do in the coming weeks.

It's interesting you spoke about construction over scale length when it comes to a decent low B string - what exactly is more important about the construction? I can't remember who (either Fodera or Mattisson I think) build basses where the B goes through the body at the bridge, making it's scale 35" on a 34" guitar.

edit: grammar

Edited November 20, 2015 by heady

[BigRedX]

[quote name='heady' timestamp='1448022321' post='2912358']
It's interesting you spoke about construction over scale length when it comes to a decent low B string - what exactly is important about the construction? I can't remember who (either Fodera or Mattisson I think) build basses where the B goes through the body at the bridge, making it's scale 35" on a 34" guitar.
[/quote]

IME it's all about the stiffness of the neck and the rigidity of the neck joint. Personally I haven't found a 5-string bolt-on neck bass that had what I would consider to be a decent low B. Theses days I'm exclusively a 5-string player and all my current basses (Gus, Sei & Warwick) are either set-neck or thru-neck construction.

Stringing the low B through the body doesn't change the scale length - that's dictated by the position of the nut and the bridge but it does alter the compliance of the string and with the right strings can make it feel stiffer.

[heady]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1448022894' post='2912368']
IME it's all about the stiffness of the neck and the rigidity of the neck joint.
[/quote]

That's really interesting - do you think that a wider neck, say for a 6-string, could have an effect on the way a low-B plays?

[Paulhauser]

[quote name='heady' timestamp='1448024001' post='2912392']
That's really interesting - do you think that a wider neck, say for a 6-string, could have an effect on the way a low-B plays?
[/quote]

While this question was not directed at me, I have to say that my old Yamaha TRB II6, which is a bolt on bass with 35" was one of the best B I have ever tried and used. I tend to think that the mass of the neck does contribute to how a B string is sounding, but that might be just a false observation. I own two 6 string Ibanez basses and while they are 34" bolt ons the B string sounds very good on both of them.
This B string issue is world in it own, so many opinions and variables, the best bet is to make your own opinion by trying basses.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Paulhauser' timestamp='1448032579' post='2912530']
This B string issue is world in it own, so many opinions and variables, the best bet is to make your own opinion by trying basses.
[/quote]

My thinking too, though I have to say that I am happiest with a 35" scale.

My old Alleva-Coppolo KBP5 had a very wide, very flat neck on a 34" scale, and I was perfectly happy with the low B until the first time I played a Mike Lull.

The Lull has (I suspect) a lower-mass neck but a 35" scale, and with the same strings as the A/C (and the same person playing it, natch) the Lull's low B is noticeably less flobbadob.

[JTUK]

If you are in London you have to visit the Gallery and talk to Sei.
A quick train ride west will get to to BassGear which is right next to Twyford rail station.

Both shops have loads of top end basses at any one time. I would give both a call and have a quick chat.

I am a bit confused though... the tracks you've listed are modern basses...like a a Sei or Smith but
you call yourself a Fender type of guy..?
Certainly Martin P could make you either as he does Jazz clones as well as anyone IMO...as well as the modern
Original and Flamboyants for the modern sound.
Smith is Smith..and nothing sounds like it..but then it doesn't go anywhere esle either, IMO.

I think you'll buy Smith in the end for that money, but both those shops should be the first place you start looking and talking.

For me, that money would go on an Avella C, or a Sei J5 but that is staying close to the Fender Vibe.

I'm sure a visit to both will set you on a path..both great shops with a great wealth of knowledge and stock.
Sei can sell and make what you need... Bassgear stocks and sells.

Google them both and call ahead as I'm sure their stock moves pretty quick.

Thoroughly recommend both

Edited November 20, 2015 by JTUK

[Mikkoantt]

I recomment a Fodera Emperor Standard 5 or Dingwall. Both of these basses have amazing b string.

[Sibob]

Also bear in mind that different strings have different tensions!
Everyone's experience of different scales, different makes & different strings, not to mention how they play (a lighter touch negates needing as high a tension), means that it's all very subjective

Felix Pastoius' 6 string is 33"
Owen Biddle's 6 string is 30"

Si

[visog]

I'd go with the sound advise presented above... go to the Bass Gallery and try a few different ones out... Sei, Overwater and AC are awesome.

The scale IMO is not very important... but the string tension is... so make sure you're aware of what you're playing if you like it (scale length x string gauge).

You don't need to spend £4.5 to get a great bass. You just need to have the patience to try a few to see what suits you. All the names suggested are good. I'd add Goodfellow, who I can testify to, make great 5's where the B becomes part of the whole and can be played all up the neck without a difference in tone to the other strings. Bare this in mind when you play 5's which have a good natural 'b' but the fretted notes become 'flubby' up the neck.

[Truckstop]

£4,500?!

Buy a nice 5er and then spend a couple of grand on some lessons. You'll end up sounding a lot better. No point spending thousands on an instrument if you can't use it properly.

Not saying you can't, of course. Just saying that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

[heady]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1448048558' post='2912773']
I am a bit confused though... the tracks you've listed are modern basses...like a a Sei or Smith but
you call yourself a Fender type of guy..?
[/quote]

Sorry for the confusion! I suppose what I'm saying is that I've really outgrown the 'Fender sound' in the last year. My ability and the projects I'm working on have become far more technical and thus demanding of something with extra versatility and finesse. I've also really missed having a low-B.

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1448051731' post='2912809']
Also bear in mind that different strings have different tensions!
Everyone's experience of different scales, different makes & different strings, not to mention how they play (a lighter touch negates needing as high a tension), means that it's all very subjective
[/quote]

All the discussion on scale length versus string tension has been really helpful! Thank you. It's been a long time since I've tried out loads of basses at the same time and so a trip to Bass Direct, Bass Gallery and Bass Gear is in order before I go any further and end up making a bad decision, most definitely.

[quote name='visog' timestamp='1448055406' post='2912844']
You don't need to spend £4.5 to get a great bass. You just need to have the patience to try a few to see what suits you. All the names suggested are good. I'd add Goodfellow, who I can testify to, make great 5's where the B becomes part of the whole and can be played all up the neck without a difference in tone to the other strings. Bare this in mind when you play 5's which have a good natural 'b' but the fretted notes become 'flubby' up the neck.
[/quote]

Agreed and as I mentioned before, £4500 is really the maximum of my budget. If I try out a heap of guitars and the £500 one feels right, then that's fantastic!

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1448057516' post='2912856']
Buy a nice 5er and then spend a couple of grand on some lessons. You'll end up sounding a lot better.
[/quote]

It's a fair assessment! As I said before - that's the kind of money I will be able to accept parting with if it really is something special. We all hope that moving onto another guitar will help us improve as musicians - again that doesn't necessarily mean spending £6000. I just know from experience that there is generally a huge difference in a bass priced at say £1000 to one at £2500, and upwards. Not always, but most often.