Stingray prices still falling?

[ashevans09]

£488?!

Good thing I shifted mine when I did...

[Jobiebass]

[quote name='Waldo' post='284880' date='Sep 16 2008, 11:40 AM']I have no choice but to keep it now, especially since Reverb have come along and just wiped out half of the value of it.

To think I'd have sold this in a heartbeat not so long ago, especially with the model I have [/quote]

Only prob is, that even if its a sparkle (+100 usually on the price) they arnt selling.
Mate if your not in a rush keep it!!!

if you wanna sell it for stupid money, I have supid money in my account.

[noelk27]

It's not such an odd phenomenon. Sure fashion and trends can play their parts. But I'm not so sure it's the Stingray going out of favour, but that there's simply an over-supply of this product on the market - and when there's an over-supply of any product, the marketplace makes a correction and price falls. For quite a few years now it's been more than apparent that the list price of the Stingray has been over-inflated, and the manufacturer has been too slow to bring new or updated product to the market. Historically it's happened to many companies who have taken their eye off development. Sure, I can already see the storm of infuriated replies, but tell me what's really changed about the Stingray in the last 25 years - 4 bolt to 6 bolt? Totally radical. HH? But isn't that just a Sabre, re-badged. HS? A slight variation on the same theme. Piezo bridge? Other manufacturers have been doing this since the early 90s. Even the must have modification of adding a carbon fibre neck only turns it into a Cutlass I (or if it's an HH a Cutlass II). And the sheer number of limited editions that have been appearing in recent years more than gives the game away - the game that Rover tried to play with its car models - a new "limited edition" every month or so. Sales staff: "you can only get this one in yellow", or "this one only comes in orange sparkle". Customer: "wow, and how does the colour of the finish improve the sound?" It's time for a marketplace reality check.

I think the listing that has just appeared in the sales forum says it all, "yet another Stingray". Any buyer looking for a Stingray is in a powerful position, and can simply wait until exactly what they want comes along. You can't say that about a lot of other manufacturers - the ones who have a little bit more variety in their lines - whose products are standing up better price-wise in the current financial climate.

[Mr Cougar]

I'm not sure it's a problem with the variety of models, it's a classic bass and although quality has deteriorated slighty (crappier bridge, unfinsihed neck, poorer fit and finish etc) since the early 90s it's only minor they are still great basses. Moreover, if you think about Jazz and P basses most of their attempts to update the models have been met wih limited enthusiasm and have never been as highly prized as the classic models.

Conversely the pre-EBS are starting to climb in cost now they are 25 years old and some of the models recgnised as the best (the 30th Aniversary) are holding their value pretty well i think.

I think you are correct about the amount on the market, there are just loads of them around. I think that for a long time they were seen as the compromise option compared to (relatively) unfashionable Fenders, but the P and Jazz are really back in fashion these days. I think this trend is even more pronounced with the likes of Warwicks which were very popular in the 90s when people got sick of playing Fenders. I've noticed over the last year the arse has dropped out of the Warwick market too.

[noelk27]

There is little doubt that the StingRay is a classic CLF design, and that the models produced by Music Man, under the stewardship of Leo Fender, Forrest White and Tom Walker rightly deserve to command a premium in the vintage bass collectors’ market. I have no doubt that collectors and players looking for a piece of CLF heritage - and with 2009 being the Late Leo Fender's centenary - will continue to seek out the instruments produced by Music Man from the period between 1976 and 1982.

It is the essential combination of tradition and innovation that made the StingRay a success when it was launched in the 70s. But can we truly say that this design, classic although it is, can assume the mantle of the iconic? Is the level of innovation truly on a parallel with that of the Precision bass or the Jazz bass? Let us remember that when it was unveiled to the world in 1951, the Precision bass was a radical concept, the likes of which had not been seen before. Or that the Jazz bass represented a quantum leap in both ergonomics and sonic possibilities when it was introduced in 1960. In its day, the StingRay was an important bass, and it offered a different sonic template from that of the Precision and the Jazz, but was it truly radically and deserving of the accolade iconic, or merely a re-interpretation of past success?

For clarification, my comments are not intended to suggest that quality of the product manufactured by EBMM has fallen substantially, and particularly that the quality control of EBMM has dropped. I, put simply, from information which I have had the opportunity to review, hold the opinion that EBMM have attempted to maintain an artificially high list price for their product, and that such a practice is unsustainable long-term- a situation which has become acutely apparent to the marketplace at this time.

There are always exceptions to any rule, and the fact that a certain limited edition is capable of holding its value is worth noting. But, again, I wonder if this is because EBMM departed from their standard and produced a model with design aspects that were present on the original CLF design - in this context I’m thinking of through-body stringing. The success of this one limited edition model, however, does not impact on my original comment, which was directed at the issue of purported limited editions, where the only differentiator is colour. Well, like many people, I say big whoop.

Of course, with 2009 being the late Leo Fender's centenary, EBMM do have an opportunity to offer the market a true and honest limited edition, and reissue the classic StingRay as designed by CLF.

[noelk27]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='290657' date='Sep 24 2008, 09:46 AM']It'll never happen. The split between MM and Leo Fender was not exactly pleasant and I don't think there's much point in waiting for Musicman to do anything that promotes Leo Fender's name.[/quote]

Nicely done. You've highlighted the one sentence where my tongue was quite firmly wedged in my cheek. My point - it would be interesting to see how EBMM react to their introduction to free market economics post US sub-prime - and impending world economy melt down (hysterical over-emphasis in that last bit). Like so many corporate entities, will they whore themselves in their pursuit of the (not so) mighty US dollar - as they have done by applying the premium element to StingRay resale? It will be interesting to observe. Another "limited edition", please, EBMM.

[Doctor J]

You can pick up a Stingray, Sterling, Bongo, etc for about $800 on talkbass, add maybe $200 or so for shipping (though you can do it cheaper with USPS), maybe the guy might mark it down so you don't get hit too hard by the taxman. Either way, it makes paying £700 for one seem absurd. It's a global market now, it's as easy for me to buy a bass from the other side of the world as it is to buy a bass from the UK. If you're selling a bass in Bolton you're competing with sellers in Boston these days and, I dunno about you fellas, but I try to pay the lowest price. I don't think it's a trend exclusive to EBMM, Warwicks, Fenders, G&L eetc are all cheaper to buy from abroad and the second hand market is reflecting that.

It's a crap time to sell anything, but a great time to buy, tis just the way it goes.

[Mr Cougar]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='290592' date='Sep 24 2008, 09:35 AM']

You'll have to expand on that. I'm not sure what your problem with the bridge is, but the waxed neck (not unfinished) was introduced for aesthetic reasons... people prefered the feel.

I've no idea what issues you might perceive with fit and finish... I've played a lot of them and the neck fit is invariably tight on EB models, less so on the early 80s ones.[/quote]

Comment on the bridge and neck are really aesthetic, the current bridges are fine they just don't look as good to me, I know lots of players who lament the passing of the older necks, the waxed finish is also horrific for picking up dirt but once again it's taste. In general, and it's very evident on the neck the materials on the ones I've played later than say 1995 ish seem cheaper, minor details like the quality of the maple previously used for the necks, the quality of the woods used in the body, even the plastics and the chrome all show evidence of a drive towards economy at the expense of quality. I've played lots of MMs and I'd agree there were some total dogs made in the mid 80s. I'd say that the newer ones are still a quality instrument, they just aren't as good as the late80s/early90s ones. I mean they haven't deteriorated like say the Fenders did.

[noelk27]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='290722' date='Sep 24 2008, 10:48 AM']It's a global market now ... If you're selling a bass in Bolton you're competing with sellers in Boston these days ... I don't think it's a trend exclusive to EBMM, Warwicks, Fenders, G&L eetc are all cheaper to buy from abroad and the second hand market is reflecting that.[/quote]

I’m not for one moment suggesting that this is a situation unique to EBMM, but their market model has proven particularly susceptible. EBMM took their eye off the development ball quite some time ago and have been walking a tightrope ever since, and are now paying the price for a legacy of over-production and under-investment. This is translating itself through their distribution and reseller networks to the marketplace, and subsequently to the customer-used marketplace. It's the combination of over-supply and an over-inflated EBMM set resale that has decimated the customer-used marketplace. This more so than the customer being in a position to import models to the UK, as this has been a common practice for many people for a considerable period of time. In fact, I'd suggest that cost of freight and taxes is proportionally higher today than it was in the early to mid 90s.

The concept of the "limited edition" is not new - Fender kicked the ball off with the introduction of Duco Custom Colours, in 1957, and took it to new heights with the Mustang Competition colours and graphics, in 1967. But the EBMM market model of using purported "limited editions" to maintain an inflated resale has clearly proven itself to be unsustainable. Of course, other manufacturers have been similarly impacted, particularly those with diffusion lines, such as Fender and Warwick. Although, again, the caveat of vintage and true premium models, which need to be taken out of the equation, and this comment being taken in the context of apply to recent production.

We live in interesting times - although I seem to recall that I've been through all of this before!

Edited September 24, 2008 by noelk27

[tauzero]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='290722' date='Sep 24 2008, 11:48 AM']You can pick up a Stingray, Sterling, Bongo, etc for about $800 on talkbass, add maybe $200 or so for shipping (though you can do it cheaper with USPS), maybe the guy might mark it down so you don't get hit too hard by the taxman. Either way, it makes paying £700 for one seem absurd.[/quote]
Does it?

$1k total, 2.5% duty and 17.5% VAT take that to $1200. That's around £685 taking an exchange rate of $1.75, which is about where it is at the moment.

[Hamster]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='290919' date='Sep 24 2008, 03:21 PM']That's assuming the value is correctly declared.

And there's always the odd bargain out there:


[url="http://cgi.ebay.com/Music-Man-Stingray-4-String-Bass-with-case-VGC_W0QQitemZ140266147250"]http://cgi.ebay.com/Music-Man-Stingray-4-S...emZ140266147250[/url]

[url="http://cgi.ebay.com/Musicman-Bongo-4-str-Bass-Guitar_W0QQitemZ180290676584"]http://cgi.ebay.com/Musicman-Bongo-4-str-B...emZ180290676584[/url]

[url="http://cgi.ebay.com/Red-MusicMan-Sterling-4-str-w-Case-Matching-Head_W0QQitemZ190252836295"]http://cgi.ebay.com/Red-MusicMan-Sterling-...emZ190252836295[/url]

[url="http://cgi.ebay.com/Ernie-Ball-MusicMan-StingRay-Rare-BLUE-DAWN-Finish_W0QQitemZ320301322528"]http://cgi.ebay.com/Ernie-Ball-MusicMan-St...emZ320301322528[/url][/quote]

Posts like that don't help my bank account or my GAS! Stop it!!!!

[noelk27]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='290813' date='Sep 24 2008, 12:13 PM']While people have been doing it for years, it was relatively rare up until the early 2000s when internet commerce really took off for musical instrument sales. Around 2004/2005, it became apparent that a few people were using it as a business model on ebay... Which is the source of the current oversupply.[/quote]

Undoubtedly the advent of internet commerce has opened up the international aspect of the marketplace for resale and customer-used musical instruments to a larger population, and compounded an existing situation, but importation was a routine and common practice before the early 2000s. Between 1993 and 1999 I travelled extensively between the UK and US for business, and in that time, at the request of friends, colleagues, friends of friends, friends of colleagues, etc, I would say in conservative terms was involved in the importation of in excess of 300 instruments. The first time I imported a musical instrument was in 1986. And I know I wasn't alone in doing this, as it was suggested to me by the owner of a music store who indicated that he regularly went on buying trips to the US, Japan and Germany, specifically sourcing customer-used examples of those instruments for which list prices were kept inflated by the manufacturers/distributors. At that time - 1984 - he indicated to me that it was a common practice among independent music retailers - which I have no hesitation in doubting.

Edited September 24, 2008 by noelk27

[Kev]

do a completed listing search on stingrays over the past week, theres some big prices there!

[martthebass]

[quote name='Mr Cougar' post='290762' date='Sep 24 2008, 12:22 PM']Comment on the bridge and neck are really aesthetic, the current bridges are fine they just don't look as good to me, I know lots of players who lament the passing of the older necks, the waxed finish is also horrific for picking up dirt but once again it's taste. In general, and it's very evident on the neck the materials on the ones I've played later than say 1995 ish seem cheaper, minor details like the quality of the maple previously used for the necks, the quality of the woods used in the body, even the plastics and the chrome all show evidence of a drive towards economy at the expense of quality. I've played lots of MMs and I'd agree there were some total dogs made in the mid 80s. I'd say that the newer ones are still a quality instrument, they just aren't as good as the late80s/early90s ones. I mean they haven't deteriorated like say the Fenders did.[/quote]

J in the main can't disagree, but like you I've owned both 1990 and new and the differences to me are cosmetic. The neck wood was prettier on my old one but it wasn't as highly figured as some (some in the shop were no more figured than new ones) but again that's cosmetic - it doesn't imply better. My 2005 for some reason has a fair bit of flame in the neck but unfortunately the waxed finish doesn't do it justice - if it was laquered i'm sure it'd be a peach. I for one like the waxed neck but I've gotta admit it gets dirty - having said that, the grubby neck on mine came up perfect with the MM wipes (think it's a marketing ploy?).

Regarding 'fit and finish' IMHO there's no difference between old and new - if anything the neck sockets have been better on my new one and the 2004 Sterling I had.

Edited September 25, 2008 by martthebass