Jaco... Is he really all that?

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1450129798' post='2929951']
And let me assure my position remains.

I also think there is an age and generation distance element to this debate.

Blue
[/quote]

What age do we have to be to appreciate the music of a bassist who did his finest work in his mid-20s?

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1450132512' post='2929980']
What age do we have to be to appreciate the music of a bassist who did his finest work in his mid-20s?
[/quote]
i think you just had to be there

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1450128735' post='2929937']
No, I'm convinced the JP haters are confusing "don't like" with "don't understand"

Blue
[/quote]

The only post in this thread that uses the word 'hate' is #156:

[quote name='BenTunnicliffe' timestamp='1449620619' post='2925366']

... I hate the Beatles ...

[/quote]

[blue]

[quote name='neilp' timestamp='1450130795' post='2929956']
Let me assure you, Blue, of two things. First, I don't like the vast majority of what I've heard of JP's output. Understand? What's to understand? I understand he had a stunning technique, and I believe that his technique led him away from musicality, not towards it. Please don't presume to tell me what I do or don't understand. You don't know me, and I don't know you, Probably best to keep it that way. Can you say Iconoclast? Do you know what it means?
[/quote]

I've listened to a lot of Opera.

I don't understand Opera.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1450132650' post='2929981']

i think you just had to be there
[/quote]

+

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1450132512' post='2929980']


What age do we have to be to appreciate the music of a bassist who did his finest work in his mid-20s?
[/quote]

Actually,age is probably a small part of it. He'll, there are 18 year olds Berklee
School of Music that love Jack's work. So it's hard to say.

I guess my current answer is, I don't know.

Blue

Edited December 15, 2015 by blue

[Number6]

My understanding is:

Some people like Jaco' music.

Some people don't like Jaco' music.

Some people get Jaco' music.

Some people don't get Jaco' music.

Some people understand why he played the notes he played.

Some people don't understand why he played the notes he played.

I find that i can see some value in each statement.

[blue]

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1450132238' post='2929978']

see now you are trolling and just being argumentative for the sake of it.[/quote]

I don't agree with your analysis of my position. You state several inaccuracies.

Here's what I will say;

Trolling? No

Argumentative? Yes

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='Number6' timestamp='1450137354' post='2930027']
My understanding is:

Some people like Jaco' music.

Some people don't like Jaco' music.

Some people get Jaco' music.

Some people don't get Jaco' music.

Some people understand why he played the notes he played.

Some people don't understand why he played the notes he played.

I find that i can see some value in each statement.
[/quote]

If only I had your articulation skills.

Awesome post.

Thanks

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1450132135' post='2929977']


So what is your age criterion?
[/quote]

Let's scratch my comment about age criteria.

It doesn't make any sense.

Blue

[drTStingray]

Funky R and B

http://youtu.be/6jr3x4oJrDs

[blue]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1450140469' post='2930052']
Funky R and B

http://youtu.be/6jr3x4oJrDs
[/quote]

Now I get what you guys are talking about, it does sound like aimless noodling.LOL

Blue

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1450143207' post='2930058']


Now I get what you guys are talking about, it does sound like aimless noodling.LOL

Blue
[/quote]

Lol, FWIW Blue, I don't believe you're a troll, just arguing what you believe. Sometimes you can argue yourself into a hole, this can go two ways:
- You can either stubbornly stand firm, despite knowing you are getting further and further from your originally intended position
or
- shrug, admit that the argument led you say say some stuff that you didn't fully think through/overstated, and lighten the mood.

I always prefer the latter. Good man ��

Edited December 15, 2015 by Roland Rock

[cheddatom]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1450140469' post='2930052']
Funky R and B

[media]http://youtu.be/6jr3x4oJrDs[/media]
[/quote]

OK, yeh, that's ace! Very funky

[lowdown]

[i]"I've only heard some of the most well known tracks and to me it was just disjointed... It sounded like I'd just walked into any guitar shop in the world... Aimless noodling..."[/i]

See, that don't bother me, each to his own when describing players...it's just opinions (not that I agree with the above at all).
But, to my ears, "the most well know tracks" are anything but disjointed and aimless noodling.
The lines are usually two/four bar phrases etc, grooving, often not varied, disciplined and not straying from the original head line...typical R & B playing.
Busy and popular at the time from the likes of Jemmott, Jamerson and Rocco, plus a bunch of other session players on TV and film themes.
He just moved that style on and pushed Fretless playing upfront.

Then you get the lyrical, structured playing and phrasing with the Sax player on "A remark You Made", again, to me, restrained and not disjointed.
Portrait of Tracy was another structured and disciplined piece (some Bassists just don't like solo Bass Pieces, I get that).
I suppose at the end of the day, we all hear players and music differently.

I very much liked the loud, upfront, in your face, aggressive grooving from Jaco. He certainly was not one of those Bass players who liked to hide behind the Drummer.
But yet, he was also capable of beautiful spacious melodic playing. He had composing and arranging chops and a good ear. A well rounded musician for me.
Just a shame it all started to go downhill quickly, and for me, that was when it started to not sound so nice and became wayward.

Genre wise, I don't dismiss music based on genre/style. I would have missed out on tons of great music (to me) over the years.
Jazz, through to the great Symphonies, and just about everything in between.

[tinyd]

I think that this is a pretty common pattern:

1) Someone figures out a new way of doing something,
2) Everyone admires the person,
3) People start copying,
4) Other people refine,
5) Years pass....
6) Original person's innovation seems a bit crude / obvious / naive compared to later refinements.

I think that 6) can be true for some people without detracting from the original achievement.

Personally, Jaco's first album is one of my favourites, but I can take or leave a lot of his later stuff.

[ezbass]

[quote name='tinyd' timestamp='1450181840' post='2930293']
I think that this is a pretty common pattern:

1) Someone figures out a new way of doing something,
2) Everyone admires the person,
3) People start copying,
4) Other people refine,
5) Years pass....
6) Original person's innovation seems a bit crude / obvious / naive compared to later refinements.

[/quote]Although #6 doesn't quite fit exactly, this is what I heard on a documentary about Einstein, yesterday. Apparently our understanding of the Theory of General Relativity is far greater than the man who thought it up and found the first ways to prove it.

Back to music...

[project_c]

[quote name='tinyd' timestamp='1450181840' post='2930293']
I think that this is a pretty common pattern:

1) Someone figures out a new way of doing something,
2) Everyone admires the person,
3) People start copying,
4) Other people refine,
5) Years pass....
6) Original person's innovation seems a bit crude / obvious / naive compared to later refinements.

[/quote]

Good point. This happens in art and design as well as music. It means that the original context is often lost along the way.

Which means that when people who've never heard of Jaco hear Jaco's lines recited in guitar shops, that becomes the point of reference for guitar shop noodling, which totally changes how they perceive Jaco's music once they actually hear it.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='tinyd' timestamp='1450181840' post='2930293']
I think that this is a pretty common pattern:

1) Someone figures out a new way of doing something,
2) Everyone admires the person,
3) People start copying,
4) Other people refine,
5) Years pass....
6) Original person's innovation seems a bit crude / obvious / naive compared to later refinements.

I think that 6) can be true for some people without detracting from the original achievement.

Personally, Jaco's first album is one of my favourites, but I can take or leave a lot of his later stuff.
[/quote]

I like this. It also encapsulates how I felt checking out Jerry Jemmot after hearing Jaco talk about him in interviews. You can hear how Jaco has taken on board Jemmot's fingerstyle funk approach and moved it on to the next level.
It's interesting to think about what Jaco's legacy is and exactly where the greatness lies. His 16th note groove playing is fantastic, and it's surprisingly hard to get the feel of that right even if you can get the notes down (I have spent quite a bit of time trying to!). He also came up with that unique lyrical, singing fretless voice that was all his own. For either of those he can be regarded as a true innovator.
I do wonder whether history might not judge him as one of the great improvisers and soloists though, as IMO there can be a touch of unfocussed showboating there, stringing together stock licks with no intent other than to say "hey, get this!". This is even more noticeable later in his career. I think this may be where the "aimless noodling" accusations come from. While I wouldn't go that far as to use that term myself I can see how it could appear that way, and I say this as a fan.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Beer of the Bass

[ezbass]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1450185499' post='2930345']
I like this. It also encapsulates how I felt checking out Jerry Jemmot after hearing Jaco talk about him in interviews. You can hear how Jaco has taken on board Jemmot's fingerstyle funk approach and moved it on to the next level.
It's interesting to think about what Jaco's legacy is and exactly where the greatness lies. His 16th note groove playing is fantastic, and it's surprisingly hard to get the feel of that right even if you can get the notes down (I have spent quite a bit of time trying to!). He also came up with that unique lyrical, singing fretless voice that was all his own. For either of those he can be regarded as a true innovator.
I do wonder whether history might not judge him as one of the great improvisers and soloists though, as IMO there can be a touch of unfocussed showboating there, stringing together stock licks with no intent other than to say "hey, get this!". This is even more noticeable later in his career. I think this may be where the "aimless noodling" accusations come from. While I wouldn't go that far as to use that term myself I can see how it could appear that way, and I say this as a fan.
[/quote]That is a rather fantastic post. Take out everything everybody else has said and post this right after the OP, then follow it with the listening suggestions and we have the 'perfect' thread.

Edited December 15, 2015 by ezbass

[blue]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1450161831' post='2930072']


Lol, FWIW Blue, I don't believe you're a troll, just arguing what you believe. Sometimes you can argue yourself into a hole, this can go two ways:
- You can either stubbornly stand firm, despite knowing you are getting further and further from your originally intended position
or
- shrug, admit that the argument led you say say some stuff that you didn't fully think through/overstated, and lighten the mood.

I always prefer the latter. Good man ��
[/quote]

That's fair.

I really did not know being argumentative to support a point of view was trolling.

I'll dial it back.

Blue

[bubinga5]

Absolutely love this. crisp staccato, percussive funky playing, possibly using just the tips of his finger tips to have that detached articulation, but keeps the notes going when he feels it needs it throughout the record .. and his double stops. just amazing Jaco. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QixVEoa598[/media]

Edited December 17, 2015 by bubinga5

[blue]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1450310100' post='2931678']
Absolutely love this. crisp staccato, percussive funky playing, possibly using just the tips of his fingers with chicken grease .. and his double stops. just amazing Jaco.[/quote]

I remember when Heavy Weather was released. I almost gave up playing.After hearing Jaco, I was like; "What's the use"

Blue

[bubinga5]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1450310451' post='2931679']
I remember when Heavy Weather was released. I almost gave up playing.After hearing Jaco, I was like; "What's the use"

Blue
[/quote]Yep. i thought like that for a while. . but i realised i want to sound like me. its much healthier.

Edited December 17, 2015 by bubinga5

[interpol52]

I love some of it but not all of it.

The obvious ones like Come On Come Over are and the Birthday Concert version of The Chicken are awe inspiring and flawless. The widdly bits in Punk Jazz and even Donna Lee do nothing for me, it feels at times like he was trying to play trumpet lines on the bass.

Dry Cleaner From Des Moines is a work of art.

Even though he wasn't in a good place at the time, I still like that Jaco instructional video. It's a bit sad in places but how often do you see a great dissecting his own playing?

Edited December 17, 2015 by interpol52