Jaco... Is he really all that?

[ezbass]

[quote name='AinsleyWalker' timestamp='1449579742' post='2924790']
it's a shame you feel the need to respond in the aggressive and self-righteous manner that you have, it's people like you that tarnish forums for others.
Before I even said anything I stated that music is subjective, ergo, this is purely my opinion. I've been completely honest about my opinion and then as you can see, I've asked for suggestions that might change my mind because I'm always open to a fresh perspective.
I figured this was the best platform to express my current point of view in the hopes that it might be changed, not for people like you to say I shouldn't be playing bass or that I'm deeply ignorant because I'm not currently a fan of one specific player.
[/quote]Because some folks don't read the instructions on the tin http://basschat.co.uk/topic/3178-forum-guidelines/

[Kiwi]

[quote name='toneknob' timestamp='1449580205' post='2924797']
Oh, I'm quite partial to a bit of parpy fretless. Which songs in particular exhibit this, please?
[/quote]
Dry Cleaner from Des Moines

Jaco was a bit erratic at times but there's no denying how far he pushed musical boundaries. At the time, his technical facility and musical sensitivities (eg. Portrait of Tracey...or pretty much any track from Mingus) just made jaws drop. It's too easy to dismiss him now given how far others have followed in his foot steps.

[ahpook]

How do I put this ?

I can understand how influential he is and appreciate his talent, his legacy, and so on....but that whole headband thing.

Sorry, it just kills it for me.

Edited December 8, 2015 by ahpook

[KevB]

You preferred him wearing the tea cozy then?

[TheGreek]

To be fair he was pretty unwell at the time with undiagnosed mental health problems..

[JTUK]

For me, Jaco is the reason I can't stand to listen to Rocco......

It goes deeper than that, of course, but you get the jist..
no more can or worms here

[JellyKnees]

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1449581826' post='2924817']
How do I put this ?

I can understand how influential he is and appreciate his talent, his legacy, and so on....but that whole headband thing.

Sorry, it just kills it for me.
[/quote]

Indeed. Apart from Bjorn Borg, no one ever looks good in a headband.

[r16ktx]

[quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1449581227' post='2924810']
Because some folks don't read the instructions on the tin http://basschat.co.uk/topic/3178-forum-guidelines/
[/quote]

Yes, "If you choose to express an opinion on the forum, don't expect everyone to agree with it or accept it without question. Be prepared to defend your opinion with reasoned debate. If you can't post a reasoned response or are incapable of backing up your statements with either independent facts, your experience (duly referenced) or the reputable opinions of other people then its probably better to say nothing."

Simply stating that the reason that playerX is thought to be great is "obvious", or " because they are great/sublime/game-changing" doesn't help those who do not find it obvious, or otherwise further the debate in any meaningful fashion, often rather leading to an impression of "emperors new clothes"

[Beer of the Bass]

I'm a fan of Jaco but I do hear a bit of aimless noodling, not so much in his early days but it's certainly there later on, particularly live. I know he wasn't a well man so that's not intended as a dig, but I much prefer to listen to his work from the days when he was really firing on all cylinders.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='r16ktx' timestamp='1449583309' post='2924836']
Simply stating that the reason that playerX is thought to be great is "obvious", or " because they are great/sublime/game-changing" doesn't help those who do not find it obvious, or otherwise further the debate in any meaningful fashion, often rather leading to an impression of "emperors new clothes"
[/quote]

Have you read blue's beatles thread?...

[ahpook]

[quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1449583268' post='2924835']
Indeed. Apart from Bjorn Borg, no one ever looks good in a headband.
[/quote]

Word.

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1449582401' post='2924823']
You preferred him wearing the tea cozy then?
[/quote]

Oh absolutely.

It may have been Jazz, but you'd gotta have standards.

Edited December 8, 2015 by ahpook

[sunburstjazz1967]

Does it matter how technically good or well phrased the notes are if it bores you to tears?

[project_c]

[quote name='AinsleyWalker' timestamp='1449579742' post='2924790']
Thanks to everyone who gave genuine helpful responses/suggestions, I plan to check all of it out at some stage!

As to [url="http://basschat.co.uk/user/3700-project-c/"]project_c[/url] and [url="http://basschat.co.uk/user/34882-blue/"]blue[/url] it's a shame you feel the need to respond in the aggressive and self-righteous manner that you have, it's people like you that tarnish forums for others.
Before I even said anything I stated that music is subjective, ergo, this is purely my opinion. I've been completely honest about my opinion and then as you can see, I've asked for suggestions that might change my mind because I'm always open to a fresh perspective.
I figured this was the best platform to express my current point of view in the hopes that it might be changed, not for people like you to say I shouldn't be playing bass or that I'm deeply ignorant because I'm not currently a fan of one specific player.

This is a place for friendly discussion and exploration, not for people like you to climb onto your pedestal in an attempt to put others down. Perhaps you both need to learn how to maturely disagree with others.
[/quote]

Ok, I'm happy to argue this out.

If you post a deliberately troll-ishly worded post (labeling someone universally renowned for being one of the most important musicians of the last century as "not all that") and then saying he sounds like someone noodling in a guitar shop, don't be surprised if you get called ignorant. It's the same as walking into the Tate and telling everyone about how you think Picasso just looks like a bunch of random crap done by a 2 year old. Or going into a theatre and telling everyone about how Shakespeare is just a load of weird words. It comes across as deeply naive and provocative. That's how you normally choose to start a 'mature discussion', is it?

You are entitled to your opinion, but it just comes across as trolling.

For the record I am not a big Jaco fan either, but it doesn't take too many brain cells to figure out that there was a lot of talent and ability there.

[Number6]

[quote name='project_c' timestamp='1449585443' post='2924874']



Ok, I'm happy to argue this out.

If you post a deliberately troll-ishly worded post (labeling someone universally renowned for being one of the most important musicians of the last century as "not all that") and then saying he sounds like someone noodling in a guitar shop, don't be surprised if you get called ignorant. It's the same as walking into the Tate and telling everyone about how you think Picasso just looks like a bunch of random crap done by a 2 year old. Or going into a theatre and telling everyone about how Shakespeare is just a load of weird words. It comes across as deeply naive and provocative. That's how you normally choose to start a 'mature discussion', is it?

You are entitled to your opinion, but it just comes across as trolling.

For the record I am not a big Jaco fan either, but it doesn't take too many brain cells to figure out that there was a lot of talent and ability there.
[/quote]

Troll-ish posts are subjective to the reader i find. Sure naivety (or having less experience of a subject) is likely to be provocative to some but surely the OP is seeking to gain insight?

[Hutton]

[quote name='Number6' timestamp='1449586478' post='2924887']
Troll-ish posts are subjective to the reader i find. Sure naivety (or having less experience of a subject) is likely to be provocative to some but surely the OP is seeking to gain insight?
[/quote]

If that is the case then perhaps he should have said he finds it difficult to listen to Jaco's music. He could then have appealed to the forum to help him to see where Jaco's talents lie. To use the provocative terms that he did were obviously not helpful.

[AinsleyWalker]

[quote name='project_c' timestamp='1449585443' post='2924874']
Ok, I'm happy to argue this out.

If you post a deliberately troll-ishly worded post (labeling someone universally renowned for being one of the most important musicians of the last century as "not all that") and then saying he sounds like someone noodling in a guitar shop, don't be surprised if you get called ignorant. It's the same as walking into the Tate and telling everyone about how you think Picasso just looks like a bunch of random crap done by a 2 year old. Or going into a theatre and telling everyone about how Shakespeare is just a load of weird words. It comes across as deeply naive and provocative. That's how you normally choose to start a 'mature discussion', is it?

You are entitled to your opinion, but it just comes across as trolling.

For the record I am not a big Jaco fan either, but it doesn't take too many brain cells to figure out that there was a lot of talent and ability there.
[/quote]

Well firstly, I didn't say 'he's NOT all that', I asked 'IS he all that', which is a question rather than a statement like you're suggesting. It was intended as a means for people to either come and say 'yes, he is *insert explanation*' or 'no, he isn't *insert explanation*'. The best headlines/first sentences are meant to spark debate, for those who are capable of articulating their opinions without the use of insults.

Yes, my opinion is that the tracks I've heard reminded me noodling you hear in a guitar shop. I've not listened to every track of his, nor am I saying that everything he's done sounds this way. If you read through this thread, there are others who agree with this opinion of mine, would you go as far as to call us all ignorant trolls or simply people with opinions? I often go to galleries and I almost always hear people criticise classics or pieces I like*/appreciate, and that's perfectly normal in my mind because I'm capable of processing opposing opinions without employing insults or put downs.

Finally, at no point did I claim he didn't have talent or ability.

Overall I think you're over-exaggerating what I said massively whilst you've misinterpreted a question and an opinion for statements... Which simply is not the case.

Edited December 8, 2015 by AinsleyWalker

[Number6]

[quote name='Hutton' timestamp='1449587222' post='2924893']


If that is the case then perhaps he should have said he finds it difficult to listen to Jaco's music. He could then have appealed to the forum to help him to see where Jaco's talents lie. To use the provocative terms that he did were obviously not helpful.
[/quote]

Perhaps not everyone is able to put to paper exactly what they want to express.

Should we criticise for that?

I prefer to read (between the lines if i need too), digest the gist of things before damning a post.

[Rich]

[quote name='TKenrick' timestamp='1449499681' post='2924074']
He was our Hendrix - regardless of whether you think he was a genius or a hack you can't deny the fact that he totally reinvented our instrument and that almost every single 'big name' player today takes influence from him in one form or another.
[/quote]

I was going to write something, but then realized that this ^^ said it already

[sunburstjazz1967]

I think he went downhill after Rockin Robin?

[ahpook]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1449587822' post='2924899']
I think he went downhill after Rockin Robin?
[/quote]


Oh lordy. Guffaw ? That I did

Edited December 8, 2015 by ahpook

[colgraff]

One of the things I like about BC is the way people can express their beliefs and have an intelligent discussion without resorting to personal attacks. I rather feel that this thread, as it has grown, shows us at less than our best.

[Rich]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1449541667' post='2924527']
Fisrt time in 40 years i have ever heard anyone refer to Joco's playing as "aimless noodling"
[/quote]
Quite. I've often heard it called [i]far[/i] worse than that.
Hendrix's playing polarises a lot of opinion. Some say he's a guitar god, others think a lot of his work borders on unlistenable. It doesn't mean that the dislikers should give up playing guitar though, all it means is that Hendrix's style and genre of playing is not for them. EXACTLY the same is true of Jaco. He and Hendrix are two peas from slightly different pods -- like them or love them, you can't deny the fact that they've been incredibly influential on generations of players -- but it doesn't mean that liking their music or style is mandatory.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Rich
Changing 'polarizes' back to 'polarises' -- f**k off, autocorrect

[Number6]

[quote name='colgraff' timestamp='1449588268' post='2924902']
One of the things I like about BC is the way people can express their beliefs and have an intelligent discussion without resorting to personal attacks. I rather feel that this thread, as it has grown, shows us at less than our best.
[/quote]

Agreed.

[ahpook]

[quote name='colgraff' timestamp='1449588268' post='2924902']
One of the things I like about BC is the way people can express their beliefs and have an intelligent discussion without resorting to personal attacks. I rather feel that this thread, as it has grown, shows us at less than our best.
[/quote]

It happens, sadly.





But JellyKness was right about headbands.

[mingsta]

As a pioneer, who's been the biggest influence for future generations of bassists alongside James Jamerson, I'd say that yes, Jaco was really all that.

But at the same time, I'd have to confess that I've never really "got" his work, even though I can appreciate the artistry. I've found it too inaccessible for my simpleton musical tastes. I sometimes wonder whether I acknowledge Jaco as a genius not because of what my own ears or musical appreciation tell me, but because its been so widely recognised among other bassists. Oddly, I've never had that issue with the likes on Stanley Clarke, who's broadly in the same space as Jaco, but who's music I find a fair bit more accessible.