Washburn Force 30 Bass

[DUPS]

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Hey guys!![/size][/font][/color]
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I'm from South Africa.[/size][/font][/color]
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I was hoping you guys can help me with the history, value and rarity of my Washburn Force 30 Bass.[/size][/font][/color]
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It seems to me, after some research, that it was made (not completed) by Yamaki in Japan in 1984 and after Yamaki closed down it was then taken over by Chushin and completed.[/size][/font][/color]
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The serial number is 842247, on a Washburn plate on the back of the body.[/size][/font][/color]
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I can't seem to find any other photo's of a Force 30 Bass and it is really strange to me? Is there another Force 30 Bass out there somewhere that looks the same as mine and if not, why?[/size][/font][/color]
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Any feedback would be great, thanks.[/size][/font][/color]
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[FlatEric]

Nice looking bass!!

Jon (Bassassin) should be along soon, he'll tell you all about it!!

Cheers.

Edited December 10, 2015 by FlatEric

[Bassassin]

[quote name='FlatEric' timestamp='1449737128' post='2926313']
Nice looking bass!!

Jon (Bassassin) should be along soon, he'll tell you all about it!!

Cheers.
[/quote]

Well, I can tell you a lot about what I don't know!

Ok - never seen a Force 30 before, that's a really interesting & cool old MIJ Washburn.

There's a lot of uncertainty about who made MIJ Washburns. What we do know is that early ones were indeed made by Yamaki. They have numerous manufacturing details and hardware types identical to Yamaki's own Daion range to confirm this. Yamaki seem to have made Washburns up until around 1981/2 after which the same designs were produced by a different factory.

Until recently Matsumoku was universally creditied with building these later instruments - in fact the [url="http://www.matsumoku.org/ggboard/index.php"]Matsumoku forums[/url] have an entire board dedicated to Washburns. However recent research does seem to lean towards Chushin Gakki as manufacturer - there is some evidence to support this but I have to admit I'm not as up to speed on what's what as I could be!

Anyway, I'm confident your bass is from the Chushin/Mat/whoever era, not Yamaki, based on its date, build & hardware. As I said earlier, I've never seen a Force 30 before, but the model appears to be a P/J version of the single-pickup Force 4/Force 8 models. There is a possibilty that it's been modified - I'm not sure the scratchplate is original, and the pickups may have been swapped, possibly for DiMarzios.

You can check these things by popping the scratchplate off - if the plate's been changed, there will be unused screwholes for the original and possibly non-original routing in the body, and if the pups are DiMarzios, they will have red/black/white/green wiring (the J-unit will be a twin-coil) and the pole pieces will be imperial sizes and will not accept a metric hex key.

However I may be wrong about both of these things - having never seen another Force 30 (and there are no pics on Google that I can find) I'm just guessing from the look.

That's probably as much worthwhile info as I can give. I'd suggest, for further research, trying the Mat forum linked above, and the [url="https://www.facebook.com/groups/55074615631/"]Vintage Japanese Guitars FB group[/url]. They may know more than me (certainly more about the Chushin/Matsumoku thing) and if not, I'm sure they'd love a look at it!

Jon.

[DUPS]

Thank you so much Jon

That is the most valuable reply I've received from starting my research.

I will definitely go and have a look at all the signs you've mentioned about modification, I'll be back with the results.

How amazing is it that we cannot find another Force 30? I'm loving the history on this bass.

@FlatEric - You've got a very very nice collection there.

Chris

[DUPS]

Hi guys

So this is what I found:

Scratch plate is original. No old unused screw holes.

[attachment=207243:20151211_224202.jpg]

I assume the pups are DiMarzios according to the wiring. On the back of the switch unit it says DM8 20.

[attachment=207244:20151211_225122.jpg]

Then I found this on the back of the bridge unit. Was wondering what ''Pat.P" stands for? But relieved to see Chushin - Made in Japan on it.

[attachment=207245:20151211_232642.jpg]

I also found this removing the neck. What will this usually mean?

[attachment=207246:20151211_234637.jpg]

Here is a pic of the serial number.

[attachment=207247:20151211_233549.jpg]

Now only one thing that I'm curios about, it's the Force30 that is on the headstock. Why can we not find any other records of this for a Washburn Bass?

What do you guys think?

Thanx
Dups

[FlatEric]

Strange!

Seems a real rarity!

There maybe two of them?

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/threads/80s-washburn-force-30-string-length.589022/"]http://www.talkbass.com/threads/80s-washburn-force-30-string-length.589022/[/url]

This is all I could find.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='DUPS' timestamp='1450077860' post='2929272']

Then I found this on the back of the bridge unit. Was wondering what ''Pat.P" stands for? But relieved to see Chushin - Made in Japan on it.

[/quote]

Quite simply, Patent Pending.

[DUPS]

Thanx FlatEric.

I'm starting to think that this was a prototype bass.

@mykesbass - Thanx, didn't know that.

[Bassassin]

Great pics Dups - unfortunately what this does is chuck us right in at the deep-end of the confusing, poorly-documented and murky world of vintage MIJ basses & guitars - where there are very few absolute answers to anything! There are a good few Washburn oddities out there - I know this because I have one.

Mine's an SB40, although some "experts" have insisted it's not, despite what it says on the pointy end. Not as rare as Dups' Force 30, but not in any known catalogue, and there aren't very many identical examples out there.



Anyway - this isn't about [i]my[/i] bass...

Good to get a look at the guts of the thing, glad to see it's not been messed with, apart from the pickups, which I'm 99% sure aren't standard. The P unit is definitely a DiMarzio, but not sure about the J. Does it have 2 separate coils, end-to-end? The poles look do like DiMarzio Model J types but the visible wiring is different.

You find lots of random letters & numbers in various different neck pockets & routes, so no real way of knowing what that mean. Might be a daily production run number, or maybe relates to the finish - no idea, really.

My bridge has the same Chushin logo: [sharedmedia=core:attachments:70307]

What's interesting (well, from an MIJ nerd perspective) is that Chushin was known specifically as a hardware manufacturer before the current perception that they were a major instrument manufacturer, and it was therefore assumed that Matsumoku (then assumed to be building Washboards) bought in Chushin parts like these bridges.

I may well be rambling a bit here, but It occurs to me that the current trend (backed up by no concrete evidence that I'm aware of) which assumes that any otherwise unidentified MIJ instrument is "probably a Chushin", is likely to be encouraged by Chushin-stamped hardware like this. So Chushin or Matsumoku - or someone else entirely? I dunno...

Sorry about that. Just don't get me started on those tuners!

J.

[Mattpt85]

I love the knowledge here!

[40hz]

Bakithi Kumalo anyone?

[DUPS]

Thank you for all the info Jon.

By now I know one thing: That I'm the proud owner of a very very rare bass!!

You're SB40 looks amazing!! Thanx for sharing.

The J-unit is exactly like yours.

I guess I'll have to wait and see if anyone elsewhere can show us a similar bass. That'll be awesome!!

DUPS

[wotsy]

think there's one for sale on this foreign website, I'm not even sure what language it is:
http://www.kupujemprodajem.com/washburn-28298011-oglas.htm

Edited December 16, 2015 by wotsy

[DUPS]

Thanx Wotsy

That is the first pic I've ever seen of another Force 30.

[chaypup]

Google says it's in Serbian.

[alittlebitrobot]

[quote name='40hz' timestamp='1450103382' post='2929581']
Bakithi Kumalo anyone?
[/quote]

ha! My first thought when I saw Bassassin's pic. I've heard a couple of different model names for the bass he played on Graceland but that's [i]definitely[/i] it.
......except for those weird metal strips on the fingerboard..

[MEKer]

[quote name='wotsy' timestamp='1450307517' post='2931649']
think there's one for sale on this foreign website, I'm not even sure what language it is:
[url="http://www.kupujemprodajem.com/washburn-28298011-oglas.htm"]http://www.kupujempr...98011-oglas.htm[/url]
[/quote]
Please understand the below is my interest as a Washburn historian and I simply try to unravel the mess Washburn has in their models among us Washburn fans. SO take it in that spirit.

These so-called Washburn Force 30's are mods and not Washburn Force 30's. The Force 30 was a 6-string "Strat-type" guitar. Below is the documentation and some pics for you. Also take a close look at the "30" on the headstock of the bass wotsy found---you can see its fake. Why anybody would go thru the trouble to make fake Washburn Force 30's is beyond me.

Also, bassassasin's bass is a B-40 as I explained to him a long time ago, along with pictures, etc. I repeat, as I told him, SB-40 or even SB-40EQ truss rod covers were occasionally put on B-40's and even some Vulture II basses at the factory in error. I actually have 2 SB-40's and one SB-40EQ. My first SB-40 I bought when they first came out for 1981 in Nov of 1980---still have it. The SB-40 has the 3 pots/toggle and mini-switch which was then adopted for the Force 40 series. Also Bakithi played a B-40 fretless in Graceland. The whole story is in several books and quotes not mention pictures. I certainly will not argue with anyone as I've put out the docs and pictures on these things so often I am tired of it.. People will believe what they want to believe regardless.
Anyway---here is your answer for the "Force 30".

[Bassassin]

MEKer - as always your contributions are interesting and informative, and I in no way mean to dismiss any of the conclusions you draw from your research. However I try to derive my own speculative theories from a broader awareness of the (often inexplicable!) vagaries of 70s & 80s Japanese guitar manufacture, rather than a specific interest in one particular brand.

I'd find it very difficult to conclude that an unusual, possibly uncatalogued model (such as this Force 30) was some sort of fake, rather than a short-run, factory-built rarity. Particularly considering that the two - or three, if FlatEric's link is discussing the same model - have turned up as widely spread as South Africa, Bosnia and (possibly) Brooklyn!

Thanks to DUPS' excellent photos and description, it's obvious that his bass is not modified (apart from the addition of DiMarzios) and the routing, screwholes, scratchplate & controls are as they left the factory. The fact that it has Washburn-specific MIJ hardware makes it immensely probable that it came from the same factory (Chushin Gakki or Matsumoku) as other Washburns of the same era, rather than being a knockoff built elsewhere. The decals on both basses we have pics of could have been amended but I think I'd need to see one with my own eyes to be certain. I'd speculate, based on the design & pickup choice, that this bass was intended to be a 4-string variant of the Force 30 guitar.

As I've said numerous times in more discussions of MIJ basses & guitars than I can remember, this is basically like archaeology, and good research needs to be conducted with that in mind, constructing theories from evidence, and tying that in with established facts, where possible, to draw firm conclusions. I don't have any "beliefs" here to justify or any opinions that I want to be right about - I'm just (bizarrely) interested in this stuff, and my theories are just what seems most probable to me. And when more & better info comes along, then my conclusions change to fit that new knowledge.

Washburn is an interesting brand, being a well-established US property at the time licenced for Japanese manufacture, but I don't know if there's any record of how much direct control the brand owners had over specific model production, and how much leeway the actual manufacturer had regarding model development, variations and ranges. The only direct (ish) parallel I can think of is Fender Japan - where Fender's Japanese partners Kanda Shokai had considerable influence over the range. This is largely because many models (the interesting ones!) were Japanese-market specific - but I wonder if something similar could have been the case for Washburn also, as they were sold into a variety of different global markets - including Japan, if the listings on Ishibashi & the like are anything to go by.

Jon.

[pbmuenchen]

I have a Washburn Force 30 fretless Bass. It's written on the headstock and small »Chicago«. I have no Idea about it, got it from eBay. Does anybody know something about this instrument? I didn‘t find any information about it. It is still in a good playable condition. It  has the number 842434.

Best regards from Germany

Pancho

 

 

[TheGreek]

43 minutes ago, pbmuenchen said:

I have a Washburn Force 30 fretless Bass. It's written on the headstock and small »Chicago«. I have no Idea about it, got it from eBay. Does anybody know something about this instrument? I didn‘t find any information about it. It is still in a good playable condition. It  has the number 842434.

Best regards from Germany

Pancho

 

 

Welcome sir....you are out 38,000th member.

I had a washburn ABT Force back in the 80s - nice bass - but didn't look like yours. Hopefully somebody will be along to answer your query shortly.

[AndyTravis]

Bassassin is on his way

[Bassassin]

7 hours ago, AndyTravis said:

Bassassin is on his way

If I'd arrived before 2am I might've been able to post something coherent. As it is you'll have to wait til th' morra.

[Bassassin]

Such a pity the earlier pics in the thread got lost, presumably after the recent site update.

However I remember enough to say it was a variation on the same model, with chrome hardware rather than black, and a P/J pickup arrangement instead of the J/J on this bass. It had the same style of scratchplate - which is the most unusual feature of this bass. I'm 99.9% sure @pbmuenchen's bass has been defretted, I don't think a factory fretless would have a lacquered board, and all of the fretless SB and Force basses I've seen previously have been unlined and had no position dots.

The Force 30 appears to be a very uncommon model - I can't find any pics anywhere else online (didn't have the presence of mind to save the old ones from this thread!) and as we've seen, even self-proclaimed Washburn experts will deny the evidence of their own eyes and claim it doesn't exist!

Bit of an update from the earlier post - as I said then research on old MIJ guitars & basses is ongoing - we now know that Matsumoku were not involved in manufacturing for Washburn at any point, so this bass is, with near absolute certainty, a Chushin Gakki product. The serial number, as I understand it, dates it to 1984. "Chicago" on the headstock refers only to the Washburn brand - this bass is 100% a Japanese-made instrument.

I would strongly recommend posting pics & info to the "Daions Online" FB group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1066707010017715/

Daion was the main brand manufactured by Yamaki Gakki, who made the initial MIJ Washburns, & this group is where the best knowledge base for all MIJ Washburns can be found.

 

[HighAndLow]

I have a Force30 that I was pondering selling due to my strange inability to stop buying gear that is a deal. It also came with the original hardshell case. I did sticker it up, preference, but it has been my go to gig bass for the last 10 years. I'm rather protective of my gear, but this one I'm not afraid to lean against amp or lay on floor or let somebody else touch it, which is rare. Backstory, I'm a local small town musician with one music store around. I made frequent trips in buying up odd used gear, rebuilding/refurbishing and reselling/trading up sort of thing. Well, I walked in one day and the owner goes "Want a bass for $70 bucks?" He mentioned it came with a hardshell case. I had already handed him the money sight unseen. I was pleasantly surprised when he went to the back and pulled out an old passive Washburn 4 string bass, a Force30, with original hardshell case. I'm assuming everything is original as pup's are rusty, it's missing a few pick guard screws, and has the original case. But then again who knows? I will gladly post photos if anybody is interested since it seems to be a rarity. I may tear it apart if it helps unravel the mystery, but I'd prefer not to disturb what has treated me well the last decade.  Just seeing if anybody is still out there on this thread or has any interest.

 

Regards,

Tom

[HighAndLow]

Here's a few photos. 

 

Regards,

Tom